Eugenics as a Civic

[Civilized Guy]

Hey guys. I was thinking, as frequently I do, about Civilization. And the thought of Eugenics as a Civic came to mind. Naturally I wondered about how it could be included, and what field it would fall under. I was thinking it'd be a Government Civic, but I could be wrong.

One downfall would be decreased population growth, while the benefit would be of a healthier populace (We're assuming Eugenics of the most benevolent usage, rather than motivated by race or religion).

So my question is this. If Eugenics WAS a Civic choice, where would it fit, and what would be the benefits/drawbacks?

 

[Zanmato]

The only tech I see making such a civic available would be Genetics, but it's one of the last techs in the game anyway and such a civic would be completely useless by this stage.

I think this idea was explored in SMAC, was there somekind of Social Engineering 'civic'? It's a more future based idea rather than an historicial one and history tend to view the Eugenics ideal as genocide.

Benefits could be more healthy and long-living population. Drawbacks could be reduced growth, more unhappyiness due to a underclass emerging and a violation of basic human rights.

 

[winddbourne]

Actually Eugenics would probably have to be a technology of it's own, comeing before actual genetics. Eugenics was big in the thirties and forties. About the same time that the fascism civic comes into play, maybe a bit earlier even, as I think (not sure) that the "science" got it's start in the twenties.

 

[Zanmato]

The idea emerged far earlier according to Wiki:

'Selective breeding was suggested at least as far back as Plato, who believed human reproduction should be controlled by government. He recorded these views in The Republic. "The best men must have intercourse with the best women as frequently as possible, and the opposite is true of the very inferior." Plato proposed that selection be performed by a fake lottery so people's feelings would not be hurt by any awareness of selection principles. Other ancient examples include the city of Sparta's purported practice of leaving weak babies outside of city borders to die. However, they would leave all babies outside for a length of time, and the survivors were considered stronger, while many "weaker" babies perished.' - from Wikipedia, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eugenics

Genetics has just made this idea far more popular if you like due to the fact science can now directly alter the genetic settings in stem cells, somewhat eliminating the human side of it (currently an ethicial hot topic) but you many be right winddbourne, it may have to be a tech on it's own. But if you take the quoted text above you place the tech at the beginning of the tech tree rather than at the end.

 

[Lockesdonkey]

Actually, my guess is it would either be a Legal or Labor civic:

As a Legal civic, it models giving legal advantages to a genetic "elite", rather like an ancient aristocracy. However, since membership in the elite would initally be based on merit rather than ancientness of bloodline or wealth, it would also have elements of meritocracy mixed in. I don't know what sort of advantages it would give.

As a Labor civic, it would be an updated version of Caste System, as seen in Gattaca, in which those who have the "better" genes are given all the good jobs, while those with "poor" genes are relegated to menial labor.

As for which tech it is, it should either be its own tech from Biology, or come with Biology directly, as Biology includes the Theory of Evolution, which is what started the whole Eugenics thing in the first place (much to Darwin's chagrin).

 

[Older than Dirt]

Civ 4 already has a master race - The Fast Worker!

 

[Palantir30]

My initial thought for the civic would be this:

Some across the board boost to specialists, with a healthy boost to GP production.

If we're sanitizing the concept of Eugenics to mean a better Caste system (which I like that idea) and socially engineering the labor force so that there are Alphas doing the thinking jobs and Epsilons doing the menial labor jobs, then the Epsilons are working the mines and fields- i.e. the city tiles- while the Alphas are the specialists.

It should definitely be a High Upkeep Legal civic, but my thought is that under Eugenics, any Citizen assigned to be a Specialist produces one food. What that would do is let you have twice as many specialists as you would otherwise be able to support. That would translate to a huge increase in.....everything, including GP points.

Therefore, it should come very late in the game in addition to the high upkeep, to balance out the huge potential.

 

[Mewtarthio]

Eugenics probably should be included, but the real question is what type we're talking about. Is it selectively breeding to get certain genetic traits, or is it encouraging reproduction among the wealthy and discouraging it among those who can't support children on their own?

I think this idea was explored in SMAC, was there somekind of Social Engineering 'civic'? It's a more future based idea rather than an historicial one and history tend to view the Eugenics ideal as genocide.

I believe the SMAC option was "Eudaimonia," giving personal pursuit of happiness the highest priority.

 

[winddbourne]

History does tend to view the eugenic ideal as genocide, we frown on genocide, but we also frown on slavery, caste systems, and religious theocracies (especially the god-king of Japan). Why shouldn't scientific, eugenic, genocide be included?

Make it a civic which adds a -1 food production penalty to each specialist, while making them each much more effective. This simulates weeding out people who would otherwise fill out the city, and "starves" off a portion of people representing the "weak" that are culled from society. It's an ongoing burden, with an ongoing benefit, so it's balanced.

My super engineer produces 4 hammers, but to get him I've lost not only the food he would have produced on a tile, but one extra food point someone else was generating, so if I have 3 super-engineers, my city needs either massive food resources, or a much smaller size than what my opponents are playing with.

 

[DigitalBoy]

Eugenics is based on evolution, inherited traits, genetic material, and what not. The "Genetics" tech is too late to introduce a new civic and isn't even in the appropriate era anyway. If there's an existing tech that should give access to a Eugenics civic, it should be "Biology." It's more or less in the right place choronologically speaking, and "Biology" is on a part of the tech tree where the 20th century-esque civics (State Property, Police State) become available.

As for effects, I have no idea. Maybe as a disadvantage, slower growth because of selective reproduction. I'm not sure what kind of benefits. Assuming the racially motivated kind of eugenics, maybe a faster assimilation rate for foreign populations in your cities. That's not that much of a bonus though. Maybe extra health too. I dunno.

Oh yeah, I think it should be a Labor civic, as it's a policy towards the people of a nation.

 

[DrewBledsoe]

Its not exactly the same, but isn't that actual game effect already produced by using caste system?

 

[Louis XXIV]

Hey guys. I was thinking, as frequently I do, about Civilization. And the thought of Eugenics as a Civic came to mind. Naturally I wondered about how it could be included, and what field it would fall under. I was thinking it'd be a Government Civic, but I could be wrong.

One downfall would be decreased population growth, while the benefit would be of a healthier populace (We're assuming Eugenics of the most benevolent usage, rather than motivated by race or religion).

Eugenics never historically had a benevolent use. Only the most restrictive police states ever considered the idea. Because of this, it would be hard to fit into the game. Maybe they could add some kind of "Philosphy" (where you could factor in Marxism and stuff like that as a new category that reflects the percieved ideals, which would differentiate a communist government from a facist government, even if, practically speaking, they weren't that different). Otherwise, I don't think Eugenics would work.

 

[GoodSarmatian]

It is not so much a "modern era" thing. Eugenics was also an integral part of the spartan society. But I don't know what should be the required tech. Biology would be OK, but comes too late for Sparta...
What kind of civic should it be ? I don't think government is right...
Legal ? Labor ? No idea...


Effects ?
It could increase health and exp for new units. I think growth shouldn't be influenced by it. A lower infant mortality could compensate fro the lower birthrate...

 

[Louis XXIV]

Well, if you want to refer to Sparta, their restrictive society had massive growth problems (more specifically, they lost population). Not that there has ever been a method based on science to use eugenics, but I'd differentiate with modern eugenics ideas because they tried to use scientific methods (Linnaeus's classification of human races being an example), or, at least, thought they were.