Eureka and Inspiration fixes + Balance changes

[acluewithout]

Something to bear in mind: there are already a lot of quests in the game. In addition to Eurekas and Inspirations, there's also city state quests, era events and agendas. I'm fine with more Eurekas but it could start getting overwhelming.

I actually think city state quests could be done away with. Maybe just have extra envoys for trade routes (maybe 1 envoy for your first trade route to the city state, them a second at 3, a third at six). And maybe you have to maintain the trade routes to keep those envoys. And maybe extra envoys for liberating, or paying gold,etc, or having certain districts.

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

Anyways, on eurekas: I would vastly prefer if it were set up a little more like pantheon beliefs. Some games, wow, your situation basically screams certain beliefs, but other beliefs couldn't be more useless. Like the +1 food to certain resources when there's none of them around, vs God of the Sea as Gitarja. Same idea- if you're playing a naval game, you'll be able to get those eurekas, but a frontier town on the coast couldn't get them. i think that was the original concept, but a lot of eurekas are something like "build X of Y item" which is just trivial to plan around. If we had things like "generate 25GPT from foreign trade routes" or "break a sieged city's walls with catapults" or "airlift a unit into combat (within 6 tiles of an enemy unit)" that are more about doing than just production sinks, that might be a good step towards that direction.

I agree that Technological progress (Eurekas) should be more about Doing things that require a great many people within your Civilization to be involved and thinking about New Ways to do things. Simply having a town on the coast doesn't necessarily send you a'sailing: having a lot of sea-borne Trade or X number of Fishing Boats at work means lots of your population is actually working on the water, and leads to innovation and technological progress related to that.

Maybe eurekas, instead of being a way to make a tech cost half, could be a way to help an intentional beeline. (If we added more dependencies so many techs require 2+ earlier ones) : the eureka could allow you to only require one of those techs +25% of cost, instead of 40%. The system is an engaging (and fun!) idea, it's just not as polished as it could be, given what we now know about how much it drives the game dynamics.

Good idea: 'Eurekas' as both Boost and semi-requirement. It also shows that the Eureka/Boost system to the Tech and Civics Trees, while a great innovation in the game, was not explored in all its possibilities by the game designers. This is not a condemnation of them: the Eureka for Eurekas is not Design a Game but Have Several Million People Play the Game and Think About How To Make It Better!

On the 'first problem', I like that the Eurekas create sort of hidden connections between tech. I don't see this as not having a proper tech tree - quite the opposite, it makes a better tech tree by not having binary dependencies, i.e. Instead of 'you can't have x if you don't have y and z', it becomes 'you need y for x, but having z helps too'.

Precisely. But the problem is, combining a truncated Tech Tree with a system of Boosts for those fewer Techs threw the timing of Technological Progress Versus Game Length completely off. That in turn leads to games normally finishing around the half-way mark, or the Tech Tree being finished by Turn 300 with 200 more turns designed into play. The timing balance needs to be restored, but the synergy among the Techs/Civics from the Eureka system definitely needs to be maintained.

On the 'second problem', two Eurekas for each tech, sure. I see that as just more of a good thing. The trick would just be coming up with enough good Eurekas. The current Eurekas are often very clever how they fit together. I think it would be tricky coming with another complete set.

"The Difficult we do immediately. The Impossible takes a little longer."
Coming up with 'enough' Good Eurekas might be difficult, but several hundred experienced gamers with a few historians thrown in should not find it impossible. The OP's list of different Eurekas is a start, plus some of the Eurekas already in the game. Between those two lists, we are probably close to half-way home already...

 

[dunkleosteus]

I see a lot of discussion in this thread but I'm not entirely sure the position on my original idea. Boris, you know a lot about history, how are the proposals I've made? I hadn't considered that some eurekas might be designed to have a second tech requirement on the units. That's an interesting idea, but I think comes off the wrong way. The tech tree whizzes by far too quickly and I think it would be better to have hard requirements attached specifically to the units or buildings, not to the techs themselves.

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

I see a lot of discussion in this thread but I'm not entirely sure the position on my original idea. Boris, you know a lot about history, how are the proposals I've made? I hadn't considered that some eurekas might be designed to have a second tech requirement on the units. That's an interesting idea, but I think comes off the wrong way. The tech tree whizzes by far too quickly and I think it would be better to have hard requirements attached specifically to the units or buildings, not to the techs themselves.

I think both. There are units that have very specific, multiple requirements from both the Tech and Civics areas, and there are Technologies that to apply Civilization-wide also have very specific requirements from preliminary technology, situation, civics and other areas.

For an example of what I mean, Ironworking would have Eurekas of, say, Kill 3 Units using Melee or Anti-Cavalry units (in other words, hand-to-hand) and Have Discovered Pottery (because the same forced air techniques required for high-quality pottery kilns are also required to smelt Iron) and Bronze-Working as the Pre-requisite Technology.
BUT Swordsmen, to be effective, require a lot more individual training and practice to use their weapons, compared to the spear-armed phalanx, so the Unit would also require the Military Training Civic OR the maintenance cost of each Swordsman would Double.

Some later units really require two Resources (Iron and Horses for Knights, Oil and Iron for Tanks, Coal and Iron for Ironclads, for examples) but many also have Civics requirements: the classic medieval Knight was as much a product of Feudalism (Civic) as of iron-working and horse-breeding technologies (the Stirrup was NOT an important factor: the medieval lance-armed knight came along almost 500 years after the stirrup reached Europe and 1200 years after the first armored Shock Cavalry).

The interactions among Technologies, Civics, Eurekas. Boosts, Units, Improvements, Resources and in-game terrain, situation and activities all need to be looked at as a single integrated system: trying to change any single one of them without also recognizing the Impact on and from the others just won't work.

I like the current system, which includes some interaction among Tech, Civic, Resources and activites/terrain, but I regard it as Unfinished and in need of a lot more work. I think that work could productively start by re-looking at the current Eurekas and Bonuses and Resource Requirements, as in this Thread, but I think it is also going to require some re-working of the basic Tech and Civics Trees (which Firaxis seems very reluctant to do once a game is launched, regardless of how many Updates they add) and some re-thinking about real requirements to get and maintain many of the Units.

 

[cinattra]

I loved the eurekas and am happy the way it's implemented...it helps early when you are not producing much culture or knowledge. It is designed to mimic by chance discoveries. It adds a role playing element to the game. So in that case yeah the eurekas could probably always use some tweaking so they make sense.

 

[killmeplease]

So, if you need to justify in your head the scattered few horse pastures in the Industrial Era of your game, those are the only places with pasturage good enough to raise the 'heavy breeds' needed for heavy cavalry or to haul heavy guns before Misters Diesel, Daimler and Ford put them out of that line of work...

Horses can be bred on any pasture, just increase the acreage to feed a bigger one. The use of heavy cavalry diminished with time not because of the lack of the proper pasture but because of improving firearms.

Spoiler :

 

[killmeplease]

On the opening post...

Horseback riding is a tricky matter, it seems no one knows for sure why people preferred chariots in the ancient era. Horseback riding was definitely practiced during the period of chariot warfare and before then. People learned to ride horses first, probably before they've invented the wheel (see Botai culture of mounted hunters).
At this mural you can see a lone mounted warrior among all these chariots:


Maybe it was economy. The supply of metals was insufficient, elite warrior's equipment -- very expensive, so why to save on transport?
But later, as metals became cheaper, the chariots' advantage no longer paid for their cost. This is my idea.

Spoiler :

The mass production of goods isn't something I know to be from the renaissance/medieval period

Actually there was mass production as early as in the Greco-Roman period
- helmets were mass-produced by metal spinning technology
- millions of 'terra sigillata' tableware per year were produced in the giant kilns of Condatomagos (La Graufesenque)
Later, there was mass-production of arrows for the English army and conveyer-like shipbuilding at the famous Venetian Arsenal (which is already in the game)

Wheel and Horse requirement for Warcart

Sumerian warcarts were drawn by onager-donkey hybrids, so horses requirement doesnt fit here
Animal Husbandry?

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

Horses can be bred on any pasture, just increase the acreage to feed a bigger one. The use of heavy cavalry diminished with time not because of the lack of the proper pasture but because of improving firearms.

Spoiler :

Not true. The heavy draft and heavy cavalry horses to reach and keep that size require Grain, not pasturage exclusively, so, basically, you are trading People Food like oats for Big Horses, which changes the cost/benefit ratio/trade-off considerably. That this dramatically increased the cost and decreased the number of such horses available is indicated by the fact that Napoleon I, even when he had access to most of western Europe's horses in 1806 - 1812, still could only get enough Heavy Horses to form 14 regiments of armored cavalry - Cuirassiers or Carabiniers - out of over 100 regiments of cavalry in the Imperial French Army.

On the opening post...

Horseback riding is a tricky matter, it seems no one knows for sure why people preferred chariots in the ancient era. Horseback riding was definitely practiced during the period of chariot warfare and before then. People learned to ride horses first, probably before they've invented the wheel (see Botai culture of mounted hunters).
At this mural you can see a lone mounted warrior among all these chariots:


Maybe it was economy. The supply of metals was insufficient, elite warrior's equipment -- very expensive, so why to save on transport?
But later, as metals became cheaper, the chariots' advantage no longer paid for their cost. This is my idea.

There is a depiction from early Assyria showing two men on horses that may help: one man is using a bow, the other man is leading the first man's horse. Essentially, a chariot team without wheels. If you think about it for a moment, riding a horse and controlling that horse effectively is a set of skills that are foreign to anything else people had done prior to that. Standing in a chariot and shooting or throwing is just like standing on any platform, except this one's moving. Driving horses is very like driving any animal that is used for traction or plowing, and we know that oxen and horses were used to pull plows as early as 6000 BCE. In other words, chariots were relatively easy to adapt already-known skills to, horse-riding was a bunch of brand new skills for which you had No Pattern. It took a while, but once the skills were mastered, chariots disappeared as war machines very quickly.

[QUOTE="killmeplease, post: 15099340, member: 131682"Actually there was mass production as early as in the Greco-Roman period
- helmets were mass-produced by metal spinning technology
- millions of 'terra sigillata' tableware per year were produced in the giant kilns of Condatomagos (La Graufesenque)
Later, there was mass-production of arrows for the English army and conveyer-like shipbuilding at the famous Venetian Arsenal (which is already in the game)[/QUOTE]

There were 'interchangeable parts' for Triremes stored in the ship sheds at Pireaus, the port of Athens, and indications that they were doing Venetian-type mass-production of such ships 1500+ years before the Venetians. There is evidence of 'mass-produced' armor in both Greece and early Imperial Rome. Standardization that is necessary for mass production is also evident in that the wheel ruts built into Roman streets for carts all have a standard 'gauge' or distance between the ruts, so virtually every wheeled vehicle used to deliver cargo in Rome must have had identically-sized wheel/axle sets - and, by the way, the Roman cart-gauge was the same as that later adopted for Standard Gauge railroading all over (non-Russian) Europe and the USA: 4 feet, 8-1/2 inches - how's that for continuity!

 

[dunkleosteus]

Boris's post agrees with my understanding of the development of cavalry: horseback riding was not developed for quite a long time after chariots came into use. Mounted units required heavier horses with better training. Fighting from horseback and from a chariot are different sets of skills as well. While ridden, the single horse is much more agile and maneuverable than a chariot, which has a wide turning radius by comparison. However, by putting the weight of the soldier on the horse's back rather than on an axle pulled behind you, you put considerably more strain on the horse, hence the need for larger and stronger horses. Doing this tires the horse more quickly as well compared to employing a chariot.

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

Boris's post agrees with my understanding of the development of cavalry: horseback riding was not developed for quite a long time after chariots came into use. Mounted units required heavier horses with better training. Fighting from horseback and from a chariot are different sets of skills as well. While ridden, the single horse is much more agile and maneuverable than a chariot, which has a wide turning radius by comparison. However, by putting the weight of the soldier on the horse's back rather than on an axle pulled behind you, you put considerably more strain on the horse, hence the need for larger and stronger horses. Doing this tires the horse more quickly as well compared to employing a chariot.

There are Technology issues at work in the Horseback Riding/Chariot debate also.

With Chariots they are pretty obvious: the development of spoked wheels and harness, fairly sophisticated woodworking, turning, and fabricating, and frequently metal fittings or tires for the wheels to make them durable enough for combat use.

With riding it's more subtle. First there is understanding of horse breeding to get horses big enough for your purpose: this wasn't critical early on, but became critical later when 'big enough' meant big enough for the weight of a man plus armor plus metal weapons. That required horses significantly larger than the 'average' wild horse anywhere in the world, and doesn't seem to have been accomplished until the Persians and their 'Nisean' horses about 400 BCE - but my information is from my studies several decades ago, so someone more up-to-date on the latest archeological findings of equine skeletons may have better information.

In addition, for a horse to carry even an 'unencumbered' full grown man for any length of time, his weight needs to be distributed away from the horse's spine - which is what saddles are for. They developed pretty early: I remember a grave goods find in southern Siberia of a very modern-looking saddle made with a leather and cloth covered wooden frame which the finders suggested was every bit as good as a modern saddle at making the rider more comfortable for the horse, and that saddle was tentatively dated to 700 - 800 BCE, not long after the first mounted riders of any kind appear in the semi-historical records. In the 'auxiliary' technology area, the typical infantry weapons are not always useful from horseback: bows have to be very short to be fired effectively while mounted, and it is no coincidence that 'composite' bows that develop their power from materials technology instead of length of pull are associated with riders historically. Short swords, axes, clubs or maces are practically worthless from horseback against infantry - all they have to do is drop flat and the rider can't reach them!

All of which means that both the Chariot and Horseback Riding require quite different Technologies to develop effectively. What is fascinating (to me as a historian, at least) is the speed with which people developed those technologies when the results were so useful: Egyptians developed very sophisticated wood forming technology to form chariot wheels, and this in a land that didn't have a lot of wood to experiment with! The Native Americans obtained horses and had visual examples of what techniques were required to ride and use them, but even so i is remarkable that in less than 50 - 100 years they had developed native versions of the saddle, bridle and bit horse-riding techs and modified their weapons as needed to make them effective from horseback. Two tribal groups, the Nez Peace of the Northwest and the Commanche in the southwest, had even mastered the technology of Horse Breeding to obtain characteristics in the animals most useful to them - and in some cases, 're-invented' earlier technologies: the Appaloosa horse-coloring is famously associated with the Nez Perce, but paintings of the 'Heavenly Horses' the Chinese bought from Central Asian breeders a thousand years earlier also show 'Appaloosas'!

 

[killmeplease]

Not true. The heavy draft and heavy cavalry horses to reach and keep that size require Grain, not pasturage exclusively, so, basically, you are trading People Food like oats for Big Horses, which changes the cost/benefit ratio/trade-off considerably.

My original point was that horses are not tied to a limited number of places like in the game. You can breed them pretty anywhere given you can allot enough land to feed them. Yes they ate grain, just like any working horse, probably more. Tradeoff here is between hussars and cuirassiers, and cavalry and infantry (as we consider food production). If heavy cavalry was much better than anything else, maximum possible numbers would have been secured. Just like with knights several centuries before (although, they needed not just prime horses but expensive weapons too). But their niche was narrowing.

There is a depiction from early Assyria showing two men on horses that may help: one man is using a bow, the other man is leading the first man's horse. Essentially, a chariot team without wheels. If you think about it for a moment, riding a horse and controlling that horse effectively is a set of skills that are foreign to anything else people had done prior to that. Standing in a chariot and shooting or throwing is just like standing on any platform, except this one's moving. Driving horses is very like driving any animal that is used for traction or plowing, and we know that oxen and horses were used to pull plows as early as 6000 BCE. In other words, chariots were relatively easy to adapt already-known skills to, horse-riding was a bunch of brand new skills for which you had No Pattern. It took a while, but once the skills were mastered, chariots disappeared as war machines very quickly.

There was a period of coexistence of chariots and cavalry on the British isles. Elite celtic warriors preferred chariots. "firstly, they drive about in all directions and throw their weapons and generally break the ranks of the enemy with the very dread of their horses and the noise of their wheels; and when they have worked themselves in between the troops of horse, leap from their chariots and engage on foot. The charioteers in the meantime withdraw some little distance from the battle, and so place themselves with the chariots that, if their masters are overpowered by the number of the enemy, they may have a ready retreat to their own troops." Like that, knights, dragoons and later cavalry often dismounted before the battle. Appointed people were holding the horses nearby. Those two mounted Assyrians at the basrelief could be an elite warrior and his page, who would hold the horses when his master dismounted. The Egyptian image also shows the coexistance of horseback riding with chariotry, where chariotry obviously prevails. All this contradicts your skills theory.

With riding it's more subtle. First there is understanding of horse breeding to get horses big enough for your purpose: this wasn't critical early on, but became critical later when 'big enough' meant big enough for the weight of a man plus armor plus metal weapons. That required horses significantly larger than the 'average' wild horse anywhere in the world, and doesn't seem to have been accomplished until the Persians and their 'Nisean' horses about 400 BCE - but my information is from my studies several decades ago, so someone more up-to-date on the latest archeological findings of equine skeletons may have better information.

Iron Age European, Scythian and Roman horses were no bigger than the wild Przhevalsky horse, in the range of 12-14 hands in withers. As well as much later mongolian horses (same 12-14 hands). And arab horses wheren't really big too -- 14 hands. I recall some Roman said big horses are for chariots. That makes sence, as without a saddle and stirrups they couldnt be ridden effectively i suppose.

In addition, for a horse to carry even an 'unencumbered' full grown man for any length of time, his weight needs to be distributed away from the horse's spine - which is what saddles are for. They developed pretty early: I remember a grave goods find in southern Siberia of a very modern-looking saddle made with a leather and cloth covered wooden frame which the finders suggested was every bit as good as a modern saddle at making the rider more comfortable for the horse, and that saddle was tentatively dated to 700 - 800 BCE, not long after the first mounted riders of any kind appear in the semi-historical records. In the 'auxiliary' technology area, the typical infantry weapons are not always useful from horseback: bows have to be very short to be fired effectively while mounted, and it is no coincidence that 'composite' bows that develop their power from materials technology instead of length of pull are associated with riders historically. Short swords, axes, clubs or maces are practically worthless from horseback against infantry - all they have to do is drop flat and the rider can't reach them!

That's interesting but saddles werent used during the classical period, as well as composite bows -- at least in the West. Riders used to throw javelins instead. For the close combat they used long swords and spears.

 

[killmeplease]

ps: in China, chariots were used along with cavalry too, up to the Song period
(although, since the Warring States period -- mostly vs barbarians)

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

My original point was that horses are not tied to a limited number of places like in the game. You can breed them pretty anywhere given you can allot enough land to feed them. Yes they ate grain, just like any working horse, probably more. Tradeoff here is between hussars and cuirassiers, and cavalry and infantry (as we consider food production). If heavy cavalry was much better than anything else, maximum possible numbers would have been secured. Just like with knights several centuries before (although, they needed not just prime horses but expensive weapons too). But their niche was narrowing.

Partly blame Friedrich der Grosse of Prussia. After 1740 he trained his 'light' cavalry like the Hussars and Dragoons to be able to charge by regiment or squadron at least 1000 meters without getting disordered, and after that it was obvious that virtually any cavalry could do the 'battle' (heavy) cavalry's battlefield job if necessary.

Iron Age European, Scythian and Roman horses were no bigger than the wild Przhevalsky horse, in the range of 12-14 hands in withers. As well as much later mongolian horses (same 12-14 hands). And arab horses wheren't really big too -- 14 hands. I recall some Roman said big horses are for chariots. That makes sence, as without a saddle and stirrups they couldnt be ridden effectively i suppose.

The Persian 'Nisean' horses, at least from the sculptural evidence (don't know if any skeletons have been found that could be positively identified as such) were about 14 - 15 Hands, but 'heavily and solidly built', so probably simply better able to carry weight for their size than specifically larger than then-current normal.
Saddles were used in Classical times: there is pictorial evidence from various Roman and Greek sculptures of built-up saddles used by the Gallic Celts (also mentioned by Caesar), Hellenistic Greeks, Imperial Romans, Persians and Scythian Massagetae. Earlier Persians, Greeks, and Indians are shown with heavy padded cloths, in fact Xenophon specifically mentions 'saddlecloths' used by the Persians, and another writer described them as having 'more cloths on their horses than on their couches' - if you don't need to hang stirrups, a regular saddle frame may be less required than padding to spread the weight to the sides of the horse's spine.

And stirrups are irrelevant, contrary to popular view. First, note that the Native Americans never used them even though they had plenty of samples to choose from, and they practiced both mounted archery and mounted lance tactics (Commanches). An Imperial Roman Cavalry Training Manual describes an exercise in which a light cavalryman must ride down a gauntlet and with a small target shield deflect padded missiles that are thrown at him and his horse from all sides. That requires a degree of 'mobility on the horse' that stirrups would actually prevent. Stirrups are handy if you are bracing to strike downward with a sword or lance against infantry, but the high saddle is more important for a heavy mounted lancer charge.
Stirrups, of course, are a mighty 'crutch' to beginning riders, but even there they can be too much of such. I remember over 60 years ago as a child watching a riding instructor demonstrate control over his horse by taking it through a set of maneuvers using only leg pressure, feet dangling free of the stirrups and arms crossed over his chest - and an extremely well-trained horse, which, for the purposes of the demonstration, he did not emphasize to us students!

That's interesting but saddles werent used during the classical period, as well as composite bows -- at least in the West. Riders used to throw javelins instead. For the close combat they used long swords and spears.

Already covered saddles, but you are quite right about mounted archery in any form: it was strictly the province of the horse nomad cultures, because to master the combined skills of hands-free horse control AND mounted archery requires years of practice simply not available to the normal 'civilized' recruit. Javelins were the norm for European light (and some heavy) cavalry, but note that anybody who could get them hired nomadic mounted archers: Almost half of Alexander's cavalry in India were Scythian horse archers, the Imperial Romans had several Auxiliary units of cavalry described as 'equites sagittarii' (their shield patterns and titles are in the Notitia Dignitatum scrolls) and during Justinian's time most of the Byzantine light cavalry supplementing their Cataphractii were hired Hunnic horse archers.

To get back to your original point (and my apologies for diverging from it) Horses can be raised virtually anywhere that there is forage, including very marginal places like the semi-desert American Southwest. But the skills of regular horse breeding for desired characteristics seem to be much rarer: only two among many tribes of the Naive Americans seem to have mastered it, and Caesar specifically mentions that the Gauls did it, implying that nobody else he knew of in the Classic Roman World knew how.

So perhaps the answer in Game Terms is to differentiate between 'regular' Horses and (for want of a term) 'War Horses' representing the big specialized breeds, and while regular Horse resources can be 'spread' from any Horse Resource (perhaps by 2 Builder Charges, one for the Pasture and one to Import Horses from another tile), to get horses suitable for Heavy Cavalry Chariots, Knights, and such, you would have to establish a specialized Improvement like a Paddock on the Horse Resource and Pasture.

 

[killmeplease]

Yeah, Wikipedia says there's an evidence of Roman saddles from the 1st century BC.
I've searched google images for ancient Greek horseman basrelief, and it shows everyone sitting on a bare back with no saddle or even a padding..

Don't stirrups help to adsorb the shocks of fast riding? And to stand up / bend over to reach further with a weapon?
I think they should provide some substantial advantage, otherwise why have they become so ubiquitous.

In the game, the resource system could be more dynamic, allowing to introduce existing resources to new locations. With district-like mechanics, e.g. Rice should have 2 nearby river tiles, Horses -- 3 nearby unimproved flatland plains (or 2 grasslands -- with the Shodding technology), etc
To train advanced cavalry units maybe the Stables building should be a prerequisite. Btw i wonder why there are no building-prereqs in the game

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

Yeah, Wikipedia says there's an evidence of Roman saddles from the 1st century BC.
I've searched google images for ancient Greek horseman basrelief, and it shows everyone sitting on a bare back with no saddle or even a padding..

There is a funerary sculpture showing a Greek riding a horse with a padded saddlecloth, but it's from the late 4th century BCE, so technically is Hellenistic and may represent 'Persian' influence. Xenophon, in his book on horse-training and handling, specifically mentions the Persian saddlecloth but, significantly, not Greek ones. The Roman saddle from the late Republic may also represent 'borrowing', from the Gauls. We know from linguistic evidence that the Romans borrowed almost all of their chariot and cart technology from the Gauls (surviving classical Latin words relating to chariots and carts are all loan-words from Celtic, a pretty good indicator that they also borrowed the things they refer to) so borrowing other 'advanced horse technology' is not much of a stretch.

Don't stirrups help to adsorb the shocks of fast riding? And to stand up / bend over to reach further with a weapon?
I think they should provide some substantial advantage, otherwise why have they become so ubiquitous.

Stirrups arde a great help to a beginning rider who plans to stay firmly in the saddle, and a great 'brace' for striking downward against infantry, so they are by no means without usefulness. On the other hand, for the rider who plans to be all over the horse, like the Roman light cavalry in the Training Exercise I mentioned, or the American Native horsemen who regularly shot from under or around the horse to avoid return fire, stirrups are actually a hinderance. Different techniques. Once the lance became the Primary Mounted Weapon in Europe, there wasn't much point in dodging around on a horse, so sitting upright and braced was the most important task. Also, in Dark Age/proto-knight Europe anyone who could afford a horse could also afford armor, and wearing armor and dodging about on a horse generally means you are going to fall off a lot, or pull your own horse over with all the extra weight on his side. Either result leaves you most likely with broken bones - and an opponent falling off his horse laughing at you.

In the game, the resource system could be more dynamic, allowing to introduce existing resources to new locations. With district-like mechanics, e.g. Rice should have 2 nearby river tiles, Horses -- 3 nearby unimproved flatland plains (or 2 grasslands -- with the Shodding technology), etc
To train advanced cavalry units maybe the Stables building should be a prerequisite. Btw i wonder why there are no building-prereqs in the game

This is how Threads go rambling off in different directions, in that I thoroughly agree: in addition to revamping the Eureka/Inspiration system, Resources in general could stand some major changes:
1. Not all resources of the same type should all magically appear at once: the game designers apparently never heard of Gold Rushes, Silver Strikes, or opening new Oil Fields, but the game would be better for them.
2. Spreading many resources should be perfectly possible, with varying degrees of effort: potato, maize, horses, cattle, cotton, tea, coffee, tobacco, cacao, silk, wine - the list of 'resources' that humans have historically spread all over the globe is long and, again, totally unrepresented in the game. As you mentioned, the Requirements to spread a resource can be made more stringent than the requirement for it to originally appear on the map, or require some 'extra' Improvement, Technology, District or Building to spread and utilize a resource.
3. Most Resources have substitutes. It is much more common to haul chariots with horses, but it can also be done with Mules, and slower wagons and carts have been hauled by every animal from horses to water buffalo. A heavy War Horse might be required to mount a fully-armored Knight, but lighter cavalry can ride just about anything on four legs that neighs - in contrast to Civ VI, which requires 'horse resource' for the light cavalry, but not for Knights or Heavy Chariots!
4. IF you allow 'Resource spread' you can also introduce new mechanics for other things into the game: If every grass/plains tile can potentially become a Grain Tile for Maximum Food Production, then you can also have extra Amenities for Balanced Diet, giving the (smart) player a reason to have a mix of tiles with Grain, Cattle, Sheep, Olives, Wine and Importing Bananas (relabeled 'Tropical Fruit'?) - with more Amenity value for greater variety. This opens up the Trade possibilities as well - why shouldn't a late-game Civ make some major Gold by exporting Wine, Beef (cattle) or Grain the way France, Argentina and the USA have done in the past century?

 

[Aussie_Lurker]

Spoiler :

A number of the eurekas and inspirations feel like they clash thematically with the techs and civics they represent. Here, I've compiled the techs and civics I think could be more fun or interesting with new inspirations or eurekas. I'm including the current/original inspiration as well as what I think it should be changed to. I'm also including a list of balance changes to certain techs or civics to get rid of things that may not make sense or to help encourage thematic roleplay and confrontation.

Techs:

Spoiler Techs :

Writing: (currently: meet another civilization), new: have an empire-wide population of 6. The justification for this change is that writing seems to have developed as civilizations increased in complexity and centralized their power. Contact with foreign entities did not create any impetus or need for writing, although written messages would later help in formal negotiations. Writing was developed as a management and archiving tool and later employed diplomatically.
Bronze Working: (currently: kill 3 barbarians), new: mine a resource. The current eureka seems to play up to the use of bronze weapons in war. I think this change broadens bronze working into a more general-purpose technology representing the transition from stone to metal tools.
Wheel: (currently: mine a resource), new: build a pasture. The invention of the wheel seems attributable simultaneously to either pottery or animal husbandry, with the potter's wheel and from animals drawing carts. Industrially, the ability for carts and livestock to be used to transport or move goods or materials is very important, so this eureka is designed to reflect that.
Celestial Navigation: (currently: improve 2 sea resources), new: build a galley. Celestial navigation was a very important development in sea-fairing technology, however it's also applicable on land. More information on that later. Rather than harvesting resources from the sea, it is having a true ship ready to sail that inspires your people to look to the stars for guidance. No longer are they fishing in the local waters of your city, now they leave familiar shores to explore the seas.
Horseback Riding: (currently: build a pasture), new: have 3 heavy cavalry units. Horseback riding was an incredible advancement for cavalry, but the earliest records of organized mounted cavalry come more than 2000 years after horses first began pulling carts and at least 1500 years after chariots were first employed. Chariots were deadly and effective, and it is after employing them yourself that you see the need to one-up the cavalry game.
Shipbuilding: (currently: build 2 galleys), new: build a harbor. As celestial navigation now uses building a single galley, building two had to be changed here. While I think building boats is certainly a reason to get better at shipbuilding, I think this new option might be equally as strong: having a dedicated port not only gives you somewhere to build ships, but a place to harbor them and a place for traders to arrive and depart. It is the dividing line between casual fishing and naval infrastructure, and so your people are inspired to dedicate themselves to boat building.
Mathematics: (currently: have 3 specialty districts), new: have a scientist specialist for 5 consecutive turns. Having 3 districts didn't make a huge amount of sense to me. I get that math is very useful in many different aspects of life, but the first mathematicians were dedicated philosophers and thinkers. By having a citizen specialized as a scientist in a campus, your people can apply themselves to the truly theoretical aspects of numbers. The stipulation of 5 turns is to ensure that a citizen isn't set as a specialist for a single turn and then immediately removed. Your city must be able to afford to dedicate a citizen to science.
Construction: (currently: build a watermill), new: build 9 buildings. Watermills are great, but their mechanism seems closer to machinery than to construction. This new requirement tries to communicate improvements in building practices as your people begin to build their cities.
Apprenticeship: (currently: build 3 mines), new: have 3 specialty districts. Apprenticeship here takes on the eureka that mathematics used to have. I think it fits apprenticeship better because apprentices are traditionally associated with a craft or trade, so having a variety of them gives your people a need to develop a formalized training system for new tradespeople.
Stirrups: (currently: have the Feudalism civic), new: have 5 light or heavy mounted cavalry units. I thought that feudalism was a bit of an arbitrary requirement for stirrups. Sure, that roughly lines up with when stirrups were developed historically, but there's no reason it had to happen in that order. This new eureka tries to tie in with how important stirrups are to cavalry, and specifically if you use a lot of mounted cavalry, you will be more likely to develop technology for them.
Machinery: (currently: own 3 archers), new: build 3 watermills. The archer eureka never made sense. It seems specifically designed to support the "archers upgrade into crossbowmen" thing, which is basically all you use machinery for. But machinery wasn't developed to make crossbows, machinery was developed to do work more efficiently. The mechanism of a crossbow was made possible by machinery, not the other way around. This eureka uses mechanized mills rather than archers.
Castles: (currently: have a government with 6 policy slots), new: have a city you own under siege. The previous eureka tried to tie castles in with having a feudal government, which I understand. This eureka instead attempts to make the development of castles come from necessity: being in a war in which one of your cities is besieged provides the inspiration your people need to develop stronger fortifications.
Cartography: (currently: build 2 harbors), new: discover 2 foreign continents. As we'll see later, the inspiration for foreign trade is changed, so discovering continents no longer triggers a eureka or inspiration. Here, the eureka for cartography comes from discovering foreign continents rather than having multiple harbors. I think this eureka will be more balanced on all map types whereas the current eureka seems under-powered on pangaea, which de-emphasizes navies.
Mass Production: (currently: build a lumber mill), new: build 2 workshops. The mass production of goods isn't something I know to be from the renaissance/medieval period as civ 6 claims. Regardless, I've moved the eureka to workshops from lumbermills, which was far too easy to get.
Gunpowder: (currently: build an armory), new: build a niter mine. Currently, niter gives the eureka for rifling. Originally, gunpowder revealed niter on the map, but when niter was moved to an earlier tech, the eureka for gunpowder should have been changed to building a niter mine.
Square Rigging: (currently: kill a unit with a musketman), new: own 6 medieval or renaissance naval units. Like horseback riding, the eureka for this tech requires you to have a strong military of the related type. Rather than killing a unit with a land melee unit, square rigging is triggered by having a strong navy.
Metal Casting: (currently: own 2 crossbowmen), new: have access to 4 iron. This was another eureka that was entirely built around the unit the tech unlocked rather than the tech itself. We're also assuming metal casting is referring to cast iron rather than metal casting in general, because bronzes were being cast long before iron working was ever developed to an industrial degree. Because of that, metal casting is now triggered by having a lot of iron. You can trade for the iron or if you're lucky, you'll have sources of it yourself.
Siege Tactics: (currently: own 2 bombards), new: destroy a city's defences with a bombard. Rather than simply owning siege weapons, this eureka requires you to use them. You have to reduce the city's fortifications to 0 health or armor (I don't remember the terminology for walls. Whichever prevents the city from bombarding you) with a bombard to trigger this eureka.
Industrialization: (currently: build 3 workshops), new: have 3 cities with 10 population. This eureka is designed to use growing national populations as the trigger for industrialization. In reality, advances in the efficiencies of farming and manufacturing practices all triggered the event, but it was the population reserves flooding into cities that carried the industrial age forward.
Steam Power: (currently: build 2 shipyards), new: Have at least 8 mines and access to coal. Coal will be moved to industrialization, so having access to it before steam power will be possible. Steam power was developed originally to pump water out of mines before later being applied to vehicles like trains and boats. The original eureka is another designed specifically for the unit unlocked by the tech and not for the tech itself.
Rifling: (currently: build a niter mine), new: kill 3 units with musketmen. As square rigging changed its eureka, killing units with musketmen not only makes sense for riflemen, but is available.
Electricity: (currently: build 3 privateers), new: build 3 factories. Another eureka designed for the unit rather than the tech itself. What does electricity or lightbulbs have to do with piracy?

Civics:

Spoiler Civics :

Foreign Trade: (currently: discover a second continent), new: meet a new civ or city state. Rather than intercontinental trade, foreign trade is now the practice of opening your market to other civilizations, be they civilization or city state. Contact with foreign entities and their goods inspires your people to seek out that wealth.
Military Tradition: (currently: clear a barbarian encampment), new: defeat 3 barbarians. Constant conflict with barbarians hardens your warriors into a formal military.
Early Empire: (currently: have 6 population), new: declare a war. From the civilopedia entry for this civic, "The natural pattern of nations is that one state, for whatever reason, becomes more powerful than its neighbors economically and/or militarily and conquers them … creating an “empire.” The more it conquers, the stronger it gets, and so it conquers more and more of its neighbors." rather than by size, it is aggressive expansion that inspires your people to transition from tribe to empire.
Political Philosophy: (currently: meet three city states), new: meet someone with a different government. The first player or civ to get political philosophy can't get a boost towards it. Once a civ changes its government though, all other civs it has contact with will get a boost to political philosophy. This boost will be easier to handle when a player starts by themselves on an island (which has happened to me a number of times). -Thanks, Equilin
Civil Service: (currently: grow a city to 10 population), new: have a total of at least 6 districts. Civil service seems to want to tie into the idea of specialization and government infrastructure. This inspiration tries to emulate that by tying it to the total number of districts you have. There are no requirements for variety of districts, only number of them.
Guilds: (currently: build 2 markets), new: have 4 different types of specialist in your empire. Guilds are about more than just money. There are mason guilds, merchant guilds, scientific societies, etc. Rather than tying guilds specifically to money, this inspiration for guilds relies on a diversity of specialists in your empire.
Exploration: (currently: build 2 caravels), new: settle on a foreign continent. The inspiration to explore beyond your local neighborhood doesn't require specific classes of ship, only the will and opportunity to do so. By settling on a foreign continent, you establish yourself internationally, ready to explore the wonders of the world before you.
Colonialism: (currently: research the astronomy tech), new: have 2 suzerainships on a foreign continent. I have no idea what the association with astronomy was for, apart from astronomy unlocking the ability to cross oceans in civilization 5 and colonies being primarily overseas. Instead, it is having a strong political influence that makes you a colonial power, by exerting your authority on foreign entities.
Civil Engineering: (currently: build 7 specialty districts), new: have the Industrialization technology. Civil engineering is now associated with the growth of cities rather than a variety of districts. This helps put it in place with urbanization which expands on and strengthens this idea.

Balance Changes:

Spoiler Balance Changes :

Archery is required for building the following units (in addition to their normal technologies), Quadriremes, Crossbowmen.
Iron Working is required for producing pikemen, samurai, and viking longships, but pikemen and longships don't require iron to be built.
Viking Longships get +10 combat strength and replace Quadriremes, rather than Galleys. Like the Jong, shares its movement speed with any units it is in a formation with. The longship is an innovation of earlier galleys. Rather than being unlocked with sailing, Norway gets the regular galleys. When shipbuilding is developed, Norway gets access to their longships. They lose their early naval ranged unit, but the longship's ability to transport land units quickly across open water should help reduce this penalty.
Gunpowder is required for building Frigates and Privateers. If either unit is obtained before gunpowder is researched, the unit receives a -1 range penalty and a 50% attack penalty until they figure out how to use canons instead of arrows. These penalties do not go away unless you have access to niter, and come back if you lose access to niter.
Caravels do not required gunpowder to be built, but will have the melee combat strength of a galley until gunpowder is researched, and while you do not have access to niter.
Coal is moved to Industrialization.
Battleships are moved to combustion and they and Destroyers require oil and iron to be produced.The dreadnought is clearly the first battleship built and it was fueled by coal, but it was the exception rather than the rule. There's a reason that battleships were called 'dreadnought' class ships, and it's that when the dreadnought was produced, it was leagues ahead of anything else floating. The dreadnought would have been an excellent unique unit for Britain as an early battleship, but Brazil got one instead. By the turn of the 20th century, there was already a lot of support for oil-powered ships over coal-powered.
Ironclads require coal and iron to be produced.
Redcoats and Garde Imperiale upgrade from musketmen and upgrade into infantry. Their combat power is changed to 60 from 65.
All Unique Units require their normal strategic resources, rather than being exempt from them. Since the response is divided whether uniques should require resources, here is a compromise: Unique Units only require a single copy of a strategic resource in cities without an encampment or harbor. This applies to the following:
Eagle Warrior, Hoplite, Pítati Archer, Longship, Berserker, Varu*, Domrey*: None.
Winged Hussar, Hetairoi, Warcart, Maryannu Chariot Archer, Saka Horse Archer: Horses.
Hypaspist, Legion, Immortal, Ngao Mbeba, Samurai: Iron.
Conquistador, Sea Dog, Garde Imperiale, Red Coat, Crouching Tiger, Digger, Jong: Niter.
Mamluk: Iron, Horses.
Cossack, Rough Rider: Horses, Niter.
Minas Geraes, U-boat: Coal, Iron.
P-51 Mustang: Aluminum, Oil.
I think everyone agrees that warcarts are the most broken unique unit in the game. Their timing and combat strength makes them very powerful, and their lack of requisites of any sort take the cake. I'm suggesting imposing a Wheel and Horse requirement on them just like the normal heavy chariot. If it bothers people that Sumeria loses their early war carts, why not just add a Eureka for Wheel: "be Sumeria"? (this is a joke). Berserkers don't have a resource requirement. I've heard that Scandinavia was relatively iron-poor, and that was one of the reasons Norse raiders wore relatively sparse metal equipment. They favoured axes over swords because they needed axes for their domestic lives for felling trees and iron was too scarce to afford separate weapons and tools. Someone else can confirm or deny this. Besides, they dumped most of their iron supply into making tens of thousands of nails for their boats.

Flight requires combustion, which may require combustion to be moved on the tech tree.
Combustion requires steam power.
Astronomy requires Celestial Navigation.
Heavy Chariots and Warcarts require horses, but also gain +5 combat and impose a -5 combat penalty on adjacent enemy units when a chariot is adjacent to at least one other chariot. Chariots were terrifying. Before the chariot, the fastest a man could move was by his own two feet (same goes for women). Chariots enabled soldiers to move across the battlefield with incredibly speed, and witnesses record the panic imposed by the thunder of hooves and wheels when the chariots charged. It took strong and highly trained soldiers to stand up to chariots rather than break ranks.
There's an argument for adding a classical era Cataphract for chariots to upgrade into, but I'm not suggesting new units be added here.
Knights and Samurai are moved to Feudalism, which hopes to better represent their place in the societal structure of the time they arose. Knights require horses and iron, and have a -10 combat penalty until stirrups are unlocked.
Mounted cavalry units take no combat penalty when defending against anti-cavalry units unless flanked.
Anti-cavalry units do not have a combat penalty against melee units, but do take a -10 combat penalty when defending against siege attacks. The close quarters formations that spear-wielding soldiers stand in makes them particularly vulnerable to what we might now call AoE type weapons. There are records of tacticians trying to maneuver their pikemen around to protect their artillery while simultaneously trying to avoid being hit by enemy artillery, which would be deadly to them.
Radio requires Electricity. I hope this one is self-explanatory.

Bonuses: The following are passive effects granted by researching techs and civics. They represent fundamental improvements on the operation of your empire based on ideas rather than quantifiable buildings or government policies. The game already has a few of these, but these are some additional ones which I hope will help the game.

Spoiler Bonuses :

Celestial Navigation: +10% range for land trade routes, +25% range for sea trade routes. +1 movement for naval units. Tying into the idea of "ships of the desert", navigating by the stars was important for traders on land as well, not just by sea. It also helps sailors navigate better on the ocean, which grants a permanent +1 movement to all naval ships compared with other civilization that lack an understanding of navigation.
Wheel: +1 production in every city. +10% range for land trade routes. The wheel improves the productivity of all of your cities and lengthens the distance land trade routes can cross. Celestial navigation still extends sea trade routes farther than the wheel and celestial navigation do together for land trade routes.
Irrigation: Enables farms to be built on desert tiles with access to freshwater. Desert farms cannot provide adjacency bonuses to other farms when later techs or civics are unlocked. Essentially, this allows you to farm flat desert tiles adjacent to oases. Since desert tiles have no yield, this makes desert tiles still very poor. It does make petra cities better though.
Currency: +1 gold in every city.
Construction: +10% production towards city-center buildings.
Engineering: +10% production towards building districts (but not district buildings).
Mathematics: +1 science to libraries.
Military Tactics: Doubles flanking bonuses.
Apprenticeship: +1 to primary yield of engineer and artist specialists.
Education: +1 to primary yield of scientist and religious specialists.
Stirrups: +4 combat to all pre-modern mounted cavalry units. Eliminates the -10 combat penalty on knights.
Mass Production: +10% production towards units.
Banking: +1 gold to merchant specialists.
Printing: Doubles the yields from great works of writing. Foreign works of writing get +1 science after their yields are doubled.
Metalcasting: +5% production towards renaissance and later era units.
Ballistics: +3 combat strength to ranged units.
Industrialization: Districts grant +1 housing each.
Rifling: +5 strength to gunpowder melee units.
Steel: Improved sources of iron grant +1 production when producing buildings.
Electricity: Power plants gain: +1 to primary yield of specialists in districts within range.
Computers: Power plants gain: +2 to primary yield of specialists in districts within range.

Games and Recreation: +1 amenity in the capital.
Drama and Poetry: +2 culture in the capital.
Military Training: Land units start with +5 exp.
Defensive Tactics: +25 defence to city fortifications.
Recorded History: Palace gains +1 science and culture for every era you've progressed since the civic is discovered. Resets if your capital is moved (due to your original being captured).
Naval Tradition: Naval units start with +5 exp.
Civil Service: The first specialist in a city doesn't count towards your housing limit.
Guilds: Districts provide +1 great person point of their type.
The Enlightenment: All great works gain +1 culture.
Mercantilism: Trade routes with other major civilizations (not city states or your cities) gain +2 gold for both parties.
Nationalism: Great works you've created grant +1 culture in your cities. In a Fascist government, units get +5 defence in your territory.
Opera and Ballet: Theming bonuses grant +1 amenity.
Urbanization: Specialists consume 25% less food.
Capitalism: All specialists grant +2 gold in all governments except Communism. This bonus is increased to +3 gold if your government is Democracy. Under Communism, specialists get +2 production and -1 gold. This is a little odd. I wanted capitalism to increase the value of the economy and for it to excel in a democratic society. At the same time, communism clashes with capitalism, so capitalism had to have some other effect. I hoped the difference might make players think more carefully about which government they want. Fascism does not get any special benefit from capitalism, but I added a benefit from Nationalism to Fascism.
Professional Sports: Regional bonuses from Entertainment complexes can also be passed from the broadcast tower if the city has one.
Cultural Heritage: Wonders grant a standard adjacency bonus to entertainment complexes.

Improved Resource Benefits: In Civ 5, some resources provided passive benefits to your cities when you improved them. This brings some of those back.

Spoiler Improved Resource Benefits :

Copper: +25% production towards ancient era units in this city (except slingers and warriors. Doesn't stack with multiple sources of copper per city). +2 production on the tile when building the Colossus.
Stone: +10% production towards buildings in this city (after Masonry. Doesn't stack for multiple sources of stone per city). +1 production on the tile when building stonehenge or the pyramids.
Citrus: +10% Sea trade route length in your empire. Only applies for the first citrus you have improved. Look up scurvy if this doesn't make sense to you.
Cotton: +10% production towards pre-industrial naval units in this city. Doesn't stack with multiple sources of cotton per city. For making sails.
Marble: +10% production towards ancient and classical land-based wonders. (Doesn't apply to the Great Lighthouse or Colossus, which are sea-based).
Whales: After conservation, food and production benefits from the tile or improvement convert to gold, and the tile produces tourism equal to its gold output. Provides amenities to your cities, but no longer produces a tradeable luxury.
Ivory: Gives +100% production towards Varu and Domrey. Not required as that would be too specific. Doesn't stack with multiple ivory sources.

Changes to Features and Improvements:

Spoiler Changes to Features and Improvements :

Lumbermill: +5% production towards pre-industrial naval units in this city. Does stack with multiple lumber mills.
Rainforest: After conservation, rainforest gains +1 faith, and the appeal modifier to adjacent tiles changes from -1 to +1.

I tried to work within the rules established by the game. At the time of posting, Rise and Fall is unreleased, and there may be better systems to work with once we have that to play with. I'd like feedback or questions if anyone has them.

Some excellent changes here. What would be nice, eventually, is if we could get a mod where each tech/civic has multiple potential Eurekas or Inspirations, with the game randomly choosing one of them, for each tech/civic, at the start of the game. This would greatly aid the replay value of the game, IMHO.

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

Some excellent changes here. What would be nice, eventually, is if we could get a mod where each tech/civic has multiple potential Eurekas or Inspirations, with the game randomly choosing one of them, for each tech/civic, at the start of the game. This would greatly aid the replay value of the game, IMHO.

AAArrgh!I just went through and put together 2 Eurekas per Tech for the Ancient, Classical and Medieval Era Techs (see my earlier suggestion this Thread) and now you want 2 - 3 more?

Okay, it's doable.
For a lot of the Techs, a possible 'additional' Eureka is simply an indicator that you are behind in that Tech. For instance, the current Eureka for Archery is to kill a unit with a Slinger. Another Eureka for the same Tech would be See a Foreign Archer (Barbarian or Civ or City State). That doesn't work for all Techs, of course, because some of them just don't lend themselves to Doing by Seeing: Shipbuilding allows the building of Quadirimes, but unless you already have a pretty sophisticated grasp of woodfitting and naval architectural geometry, you aren't likely to get it right by seeing one row by.

Lemme go back to the list of Techs and do some figuring...

 

[Infixo]

What would be nice, eventually, is if we could get a mod where each tech/civic has multiple potential Eurekas or Inspirations, with the game randomly choosing one of them, for each tech/civic, at the start of the game. This would greatly aid the replay value of the game, IMHO.

It’s called Real Eurekas and been there for a year already. Have fun

 

[Aussie_Lurker]

It’s called Real Eurekas and been there for a year already. Have fun

Oops, sorry guys. I've been playing so long without mods, that I confess that I'm not up on all the mods in the game .

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

Oops, sorry guys. I've been playing so long without mods, that I confess that I'm not up on all the mods in the game .

No need to apologize, I play Modded Games almost exclusively, but being a Mac-Masochist, I have to delete about half the Mods after one try with them because they don't work on Mac, or don't work with certain other Mods, or don't work at all the way they are supposed to. I regard it all as Just Another Day in the Life of a Civ VI Player...