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European map layout: questions

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Road to War' started by Psyringe, Sep 1, 2007.

  1. Psyringe

    Psyringe Scout

    Dec 7, 2001
    Berlin, Germany
    Hi :)

    I'm having a look at the RtW scenario. While it's clear that an impressive amount of work has gone into this scenario, I couldn't help being a bit disappointed how different the game map is from a real map. I understand that some things have to be cut and/or changed to make the scenario work as a game, but I don't understand some of the choices. So I thought I'd ask a couple of questions which may lead to a better understanding on my part, or perhaps even to an improvement of the map. (So please don't go into defense mode, Dale, this is not an attack, but a request for an explanation for things I found odd.)

    Here we go:

    1) Is there a good reason why Germany doesn't have any harbor at the North Sea?

    In the real world, Germany has two very important harbors (Hamburg and Bremen). More than 200 ships were crafted there during WW2, much more than (for example) in Kiel. Bremen is placed on the map, but landlocked, which seems very odd for a city which always depended on its harbor to thrive. In any case it seems very strange that Germany has to capture Amsterdam in order to get direct access to the North Sea.

    2) Why has Bremen been chosen over Hamburg?

    If the map is too small to support both cities, Hamburg would have been the more obvious choice: It's Germany's second largest city (the only city apart from Berlin that had more than one million citizens in 1936, it was about three to four times larger than Bremen), it arguably had the more import harbor (at least it produced more ships), and it was a more important war objective in WW2 (there were more bombing runs over Hamburg, including one of the heaviest bombings of the war, operation Gomorrah). Lastly, in RtW Bremen is placed near the river Elbe, which is the location of Hamburg in the real world (the real Bremen is situated on a smaller river further westward).

    Combining 1) and 2), I'd suggest moving Kiel and Bremen one tile to the north and renaming Bremen into Hamburg. This would give Germany a North Sea harbor, and bring Germany's second largest city (and largest harbor) into the game. (The real Hamburg is further inland though, but the Elbe is navigable. Since rivers aren't navigable in Civ4, but Hamburg is such an important harbor, moving the city to a coast tile seems reasonable to me.)

    3) Was it really necessary to remove Austria and Czechoslovakia?

    A European map without Vienna and without Prague looks very strange to me. I'd guess that you had to squeeze the map into a size that was too small to do it better, but then again, there are stretches of desert and water in the far south and north of the map that don't seem *that* important. Wouldn't it have been better to reduce these stretches to make room for at least Vienna and Prague in central Europe?

    4) What city is "Rhine" supposed to be?

    It looks a bit as if it could be Switzerland, but in any case, placing a non-existing city next to an area where existing cities didn't find room seems odd. I'd like to understand this decision better. What were the reasons for doing it this way?

    5) What happened to Corsica?

    The Mediterranean Sea between France and Italy is large enough to support a 6-tile Sardinia with two cities on it, but Corsica doesn't appear. But there *seems* to be enough space to bring in Corsica if both islands were made a bit smaller. So I don't really see the reason why Corsica was deleted?

    6) Why does Germany have two oil sources?

    Oil was an important objective for the Nazis in WW2 because Germany didn't have any narural oil sources. There were attempts to refine oil out of coal, which were partly successful, but couldn't have ever produced enough oil to fuel the Nazi war machine. The Romanian oil fields appear as a very early target in the Nazi war plans. In the campaign against Russia, the caucasus oil was seen as important a target as Moscow herself (actually, Hitler and his generals debated a lot which of these two goals was more important, and differed in opinions). Civ4 seems to offer the mechanics to model such a war for resources - couldn't this be made working for RtW? Or is a war for resources it simply out of scope for this mod?

    There are some more inconsistencies that I stumbled upon, but I can understand these ... obviously compromises *have* to be made when converting a real-world map and city layout into a playing field for a game. However, for the inconsistencies listed above I'm unsure whether the choice that has been taken was really the best one. There might be room for improvements, so I'm asking for the reasons behind the choices.
  2. Bombardment

    Bombardment Chieftain

    Aug 24, 2007
    I just build two forts for direct access.

    That would be nice but with the upcoming worldmap I can live without them

    In my opinion it represents the ruhr area.
  3. Tboy

    Tboy Future world ruler

    Aug 5, 2004
    At my Computer, somewhere in the UK
    This is probably because in historical mode, were it not for those oil sources, it would be near impossible for Germany get any oil until late 1940, which could cripple it from a 1936 start. This is a situation where accuracy in resources has to be traded off for gameplay purposes.
  4. Grenouille

    Grenouille Warlord

    Jan 11, 2006
    Perhabs Germany could have an oil deal with Romania?
  5. Psyringe

    Psyringe Scout

    Dec 7, 2001
    Berlin, Germany
    Hm, still no answers from Dale. :( Well, I guess he's busy working on the addition pack and doesn't have the time to answer to every single bloke coming up with a slew of questions. :) Still, some short explanations for the reasons behind the decisions would have been nice ...

    Regarding the "no harbor in North Sea" question:
    But that doesn't allow you to build ships in these cities, does it? (I haven't checked it, will do so when I have the opportunity)

    Regarding the "Rhine" city:
    But then it were totally misplaced. The Ruhr area is around Essen, and nowhere near Stuttgart or Switzerland.

    Regarding the oil problem:
    Yes, I realize that Germany *needs* oil to build up its forces in this scenario, and that giving them an oil source is one solution for this problem. I just wonder whether there are better (in the sense of historically more plausible) options to solve this problem, like a trade deal (as mentioned by Grenouille), or perhaps by removing the oil source in Germany later on (this way, the oil source would represent Germany's oil reserves, which were depleted in the course of the war), or by implementing a corporation in Germany that turns coal into oil at a high cost (that would represent the practice of extracting oil shale out of coal, which was actually in use at that time) and which wouldn't produce costs when another source of oil has been secured.
  6. spaztek

    spaztek Chieftain

    Sep 28, 2007
    Ottawa, Ont.
    This is a good thread, as I had some questions/suggestions for the European map as well.

    1) I'd like to see the city of Gibraltar placed on a hill, to make it a little more difficult to assault. Historically, "the rock of gibraltar" was a feared target; This is why Hitler declined to send paratroopers to assist a planned Italian operation to take Gibraltar, and the operation was called off.

    2) I also wonder if it would be possible to have "Atlantic Wall Fortifications"(similar to the Maginot Line forts) to be constructed when Vichy France becomes active. I find it is very easy to land an army on the shores of France, and this should be a much more difficult task, to correspond historically to the allied buildup to Operation Overlord.

    I think this is a great map, and it has kept me playing Civ4 for countless hours; and I think with a few more tweaks, it would present enough challenges to keep many playing for a long time.

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