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Euzkadi: Basques as a playable civilization!

Discussion in 'Civ4 - New Civilizations' started by Shqype, Jan 16, 2006.

  1. Kale Borroka

    Kale Borroka Chieftain

    Joined:
    Jan 14, 2006
    Messages:
    19
    Basque news is rarely picked up by US news outlets unless it is something major, so I doubt the death of a 22 year old at the hands of Basque police would raise an eyebrow. In anycase, there is a great deal of information on the Dirty War and Spain's frequent use of torture in their prisons. Look it up. I can also provide some names, if you'd like.

    Utter nonsense. "Kale borroka" simply means "street struggle" in Euskara and is in no way linked to ETA. The Spanish government claims it is linked to ETA, but there is nothing to back this up and it serves only to delegitimize genuine youth struggles for freedom. This same government has also claimed a number of language assoications, youth houses and other non-political or similar spaces and groups as being ETA. It's all nonsense to further the Spanish government's desire to suppress Basque nationalism. Furthermore, Etarras don't mark anyone for death since ETA hasn't used political killings in two years.

    Though I've never been shy about my politics, I am an ezker abertzale. I have my sympathies for ETA, though I disagree on some ideological and tactical points.

    This is one example, but certainly not the only one. The state itself has had no problem torturing them and killing them when it feels the need and nobody is ever brought to justice for those acts.

    Now I must be getting to class though. Gora Euskal Herria!
     
  2. Kale Borroka

    Kale Borroka Chieftain

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    Edit: double post.
     
  3. Txui

    Txui Chieftain

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    I don't know if it's allowed to talk politics in the forum, but Im not going to enter in a politic discussion, I just told you that here in the Basque Country the people who feel Basque is a majority over those that feel Spanish, and that everyone here know many terrible histories in both sides.


    Talking about the Civ, you can include another emblem instead of the Basque flag, for example the shield of Navarran Kingdom, which is more historic.
     
  4. Kale Borroka

    Kale Borroka Chieftain

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    I'm not sure of the rules, but if the political talk is a problem, I'm happy to continue this discussion through private messages or in another forum. :)
     
  5. Shqype

    Shqype Shqyptar

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    Txui has made a good point. Regardless of the political stance of Basques, I am maintaining that they have separate roots and thus should be represented by those Basque roots instead of any other kind, ie Spanish or French.

    The shield of the Navarran kingdom might look interesting, I'll see if I can do anything with it.

    If you get a chance Txui, a corrected in-order city list would be nice :)
     
  6. Txui

    Txui Chieftain

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    I will do it
     
  7. Tigranes II

    Tigranes II Chieftain

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    Location:
    Annapolis, MD (St. John's College)
    Actually, the Basques don't speak an Indo-European language. Basque (Euskara) is a language isolate, with no proven relations to any other language. It may be a relic of pre-Indo-European times; at any rate, it is not Indo-European (though it has certainly borrowed from them).

    Just a concerned language geek.

    BTW, I don't think it is a good idea to taint those considering the ethnic/linguistic/historical distinctiveness of the Basques by linking them in any manner with a terrorist group. To put forth an analogy, an Irish civ claiming Irish as distinct from English would probably not be controversial, though the IRA also espouses this view, and many in Northern Ireland would disagree. (The Basque situation is different, of course, but saying that Basque = Spanish is quite a bit of a stretch, especially as the term Spanish usually denotes Castilian (or a related dialect), not merely a group living under Spanish sovereignty).
     
  8. Shqype

    Shqype Shqyptar

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    Thank you for clearing that up for us Tigranes II.

    Speaking of the Basque language, I now have completed incorporating the Basque Order and Select sounds into the mod... BlackEye was nice enough to send them to me, and the new version was recorded by Karoch. All I'm waiting for is a corrected city list from Txui and then I'll release the updated version of the mod.
     
  9. BlackEye

    BlackEye Chieftain

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    Dec 10, 2005
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    waiting for... ^^
     
  10. Txui

    Txui Chieftain

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    Jan 21, 2006
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    List sent, sorry for beeing a bit late but I have been the weekend out


    Here is it:

    Iruña
    Bilbo
    Baiona
    Donostia
    Gazteiz
    Donibane Garazi
    Maule
    Barakaldo
    Irun
    Tutera
    Getxo
    Eibar
    Miarritze
    Barañain
    Portugalete
    Laudio
    Lizarra
    Gernika
    Agurain
    Tolosa
     
  11. Shqype

    Shqype Shqyptar

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    I updated the city list, and added the sounds. I want to make this the last release, and would rather have it complete... so there is still room for another leader. Let me know who you think should be added as a second leader (or if there should no 2nd leader at all), so I can release this final version of the civ.
     
  12. Shqype

    Shqype Shqyptar

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    Well, the new version is now available with an updated city list and Basque Order and Select sounds.
     
  13. Lord Ainsbirth

    Lord Ainsbirth Chieftain

    Joined:
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    Location:
    Farallon del Cuervo
    Hello everibody!
    Hmmm it seems that there's a lot of Spanish people in civfanatics!
    I would like to separate two different things:
    1) The game: I don't care to include a Basque civ, as I don't care to include Scottish, Wales or Occitania. This is an historical game. But, in my opinion, the game doesn't need more minor civs, because it could be neverending.
    2) Political discussion: This's not the place to discuss it, but the Basque situation IS NOT the same that the Irish problem, for example. Navarra was bigger that the nationalistic Basque Country is, included parts of Aragon and Castilla. So please leave king Sancho apart. Also, the language in the Kingdom of Navarra was not the Basque, but a romance dialest similar to spanish. The Basque language (wich I respect) is mix of different languages spoken all around the Basque country, created by Sabino Arana.
    So, in my opinion, there's not an historical "Basque Country"
    BUT I RESPECT THEIR PEACEFULL RIGHT FOR INDEPENDENCE!!!
    Respect is the key for a peacefull country.
    One more thing: please excuse for my bad (horrible) english
     
  14. Shqype

    Shqype Shqyptar

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    That is completely false. Basque is a distinct language, not a mixture of other languages. I know some of the southern Balkan Slavs tried to claim the same thing about the Albanians (that there was no such thing as Albanians or an Albanian language, that they were a mixture of various ethnic groups and languages), in order to destroy the legitimate claim to Albanian land. The reality is, the Albanian language is derived from the Illyrian language: Regarding the Albanian language, more than 1/3 is pure, undisputed Illyrian, 1/3 is disputed Illyrian/Pelasgian, and the remainder is a mixture of ancient Greek and Latin, Celtic, Slavic, Italian, and Turkish.

    Speaking about my own language and people, I understand the situation of the Basques.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basque_language

    Sabino Arana did not create the Basque language, he just created some words for the Basque language because he didn't want to use Spanish or French words. They are called "neologisms."

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Language_isolate
     
  15. Varela

    Varela Chieftain

    Joined:
    Oct 20, 2006
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    Location:
    Alava, Spain
    to Lucius Sulla:
    Bravo & Olé

    to Kale borroka:
    I am amised that a ignorant like you even knows how to speak in english, when in school the asignature to learn all day is to hate your spanish brothers because of horrible acts of aggression and cruelty against people you dont even know from stories that dont even have a single spot of evidence and just never happend. Well ive been insulted, kicked, and pointed with arms just because of totalitarian-basque pricks like you with so much less culture and logic that follow blindly the interests if some pervert who masturbates with sabino arana at nights and just seeks to obtain power, influence and... guess what you stalinist pig... MONEY!!
    It is interesting that the hipocrasy of you guys have made you want independence from Spain, when it was Spain, with all the leaders you hate, Franco, Felipe Gonzalez, Aznar, Azaña etc until Isabel II who have constantly been sending money to just 3 regions in spin form the taxes of all th ecountry. Guess what regions? Yes, Cataluña, las Vascongadas (el pais vasco? eso no existe) and Madrid. Just think that the first railway in Spain went from MAtaro to Barcelona and the first highway destination was ofcourse to San Sebastian. After been receiving money for more than 200 years, what was suppose to be diversifed through the whole of Spain because the whole os Spain payed for the taxes you keaped, you want independence. What a surprise. Now that regions liek Andalucia and Extremadura have been sacked and its time to pay back the favours from the past, you just close up and think of the money and seek independence so not a single euro flees of our corrupted and bloody arcs. And u call yourslef leftist? Your a discrase to the Vascongadas, to Spain, and to the whole humanity.
    It is very sad that people like you, and people that tolerate you guys still live between us. Like some philospher said of Hitler :
    The bad people only triunph when the good people do nothing.
    By the way, and against what most of europe, the world and spain thinks, we basques that are and want to still be spanish are a very significant percentage of the population, more than 50%, but as we are some how wealthy, we prefer to shut up as cowards because we have many things to lose, and so we get dominated by some stupid acneic adolescent creature who defines himself as a martyr and follows a pervert leader seeking money to kill his brothers, we let them push us, hit us, insult us, dominate us, and point weapons to our faces so we help them become another stalinist socialist republica with forced labour, death camps and all the totalitarian-communistal parafernalia stuff some other "characters" such as lenin/stalin pol pot ho chi min somoza mao etc already planned.
    Please learn, read, start thinking by yourself and try losing the brain wash your in.

    to shqype:
    Read, and talk only when you know what your talikng about and how your talkign about. What you said is insulting and proved yourself a very ignorant person. Some thing goes to the prototerrorist of before.. what an *******.
    Sad but True.
    VIVA ESPAÑA, VIVA LAS VASCONGADAS :mad: :mad: :mad: :crazyeye: :mad: :mad: :mad:
     
  16. Arwon

    Arwon

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    OK, so what are "las vascongadas"? Is this just a different word for el Pais Vasco or does it mean something else?

    Edit: Two years later and I know. It's a very old and very non-Basque name for the area.
     
  17. Acid86

    Acid86 Chieftain

    Joined:
    Oct 27, 2006
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    Location:
    Araba
    Hello all. I have just arrived in this forum. Sorry if my English is not totally correct.

    First off, I have to say that I am totally freaking out about this topic. How can it be possible that in a game forum to take place a political discussion? I can't believe it. Just focus on the game, not on other stuff like this that is just getting everybody upset.

    Second of all, I am Basque (I'm from Araba, south county of Euskadi) and, of course, I know what's going on about all this stuff. So I have some points to make clear in order to end up with all this:

    1) Varela, at least you should have some respect for everybody. Sure everybody have a different opinion about an issue, but that's not ecuse to be disrespectful. Plus, I don't know what problem you have with basque people. You should think: all for the country. But think this: have you gained something from the country to be so loyal at it as you seem to be? I mean, you have to be from the place you wanna be, because you belong to that place, being respectful with other people who don't feel that way.

    2) Which counties (NOT countries) do you think are the richest of Spain? Sure, Euskadi, Catalunya (Catalonia) and Madrid. In Euskadi I can say that it became rich (at least in the 20th century, before that I can't say because I don't know) that with the ammount of industries that set up in here (e.g. "Altos Hornos" of Bilbao). Just in order to make you wonder.

    3) I have some stuff to desagree about the basque as well. I consider myself basque too but what I don't and can't understand is that some people support violence. That's the only wrong thing I can say about basque people.

    4) Other stuff, but related to the point 3. TV has spread a lot of information about the basque problem. In my opinion they have overreacted and a lot. I know that it is important to stop with violence, but have you ever noticed (at least in spanish TV) that it has much more importance for TV programs the basque violence than other kind of violence, for example in Madrid? It is amazing how many murders are in the capital. A lot more than ETA has made. But TV prefer to focus on basque violence (e.g. a telephone box burnt, or a car burnt) than the murders than have occur in other place which hardly ever appear on TV. A clear example happened few years ago: lots of cars were burnt in Valencia in a weekend (I don't remember why), few days later a car burnt in Euskadi and it called it Kale Borroka (for the ones who don't know about this, is the name of urban violence of euskadi). Weren't the events of Valencia more important than a car burnt? When a fact happens in euskadi which happens lots of time all around Spain and the world TV just focus on the ones of Euskadi in order to create more tenssion.

    5) TV has never been impartial with this facts of the point 4. Its influence is so huge that I went on vacation to the south of Spain, I told I was from Gasteiz, and people asked me if I were a member of ETA. Do you think that people are seeing the problem objectively? I don't think so.

    6) Varela told that a lot of people who live in Euskadi feel themselves as spanish. OK, I agree with you, but you should tell why and where. It most happens in Araba and Nafarroa (Navarra) (The counties on the south of Euskadi). However, there are increasing the basque people in here. In Gipuzkoa and Bizkaia it doesn't happen (or if it happens, much less than in the south). Why does this happen? It's easy. In Franco's time (the dictator) Spain after war was poor. Plus, in Euskadi it was a resistance against him feeling themselves basque. So, he set up industries in here (as I said before "Altos Hornos" of Bilbao) and a lot of people from all around Spain went here to get a job mixing the basque feeling with lots of "foreigners" decreasing the basque feeling as he wanted. It affected to the basque language (Euskera) as well, almost making it disappear. He ordered to kill anybody who was talking in Basque!! Can you imagine? Now, who was the killer? Luckily, Basque laguage has recovered and it's growing again.

    Apart from the political issue, I have another points to comment:

    7) Someone has told that Iruña should be the capital of Euskadi. I disagree. As you said, the name Euzkadi began to appeared with Sabino Arana, OK. In that time the capital (I don't know official or not, I can't say it for sure) was put on Bilbao (Bilbo in euskera) and after the civil war of Spain it was removed being just one capital, Madrid (Spain's capital). After the dictator died, the new capital of Euskadi (now with S) was set in Vitoria-Gasteiz (official name of the city, Vitoria in spanish and Gasteiz in euskera). Iruña (Pamplona in spanish) was just the capital of Navarra (Navarre in english and Nafarroa in euskera, it's a county of Spain now). In the past the basque country was in Navarra, OK, but that would be Navarra, not EUZKADI. If you talk about Euzkadi the capital can be Bilbo or Gasteiz (the capital nowadays), not Iruña. That's what I think.

    8) About the Basque language: it is NOT a mix. It is unknown the procedence of the language but it is not a mix. It has evolved as all languages have done. Plus, it is demostrated that it's the most difficult language to learn followed by mandarin chinese. So, people who know this beautiful language: be proud of it! (I am one of these too, hehehe :lol:) In general, be proud of all the languages you speak.

    I think I haven't forgotten anything but if I remember something I will reply again. If I have hurt anybody with these post it wasn't my intention, I wanted just to make clear some stuff you have written. If I am wrong in something please post something too. Thank you all for reading this.
    Peace and happiness for all :goodjob:
     
  18. Shqype

    Shqype Shqyptar

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    Acid86, thank you for posting. I appreciate you defending your Basque people; I too respect them and can understand where they're coming from.

    I'm thinking of converting this mod to Warlords compatibility :)

    PS- I also speak an ancient, beautiful language that is difficult to emulate. Welcome to the club :)
     
  19. Italicus

    Italicus Italia Redenta

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    Location:
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    Why your defending Basque people and not Corso people, or Provenzal people, or Alsatian people?
    Why the peoples subjugated by the France are not never named?
     
  20. Shqype

    Shqype Shqyptar

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    Italicus, I don't know about those people, but I do know a little bit about the Basques. Needless to say, there are people all over the world that may not have adequate representation and are unfortunately subjugated by greater powers. Sadly, that's how it is.
     

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