Evolution in a Lab

You're confusing change with Evolution.

You're also confusing Natural Selection with Evolution. Have a look at this thread which I started about this subject. What exactly is "Natural Selection"?
 
Isn't this just like creating variations of dogs?
 
classical_hero said:
You're confusing change with Evolution.

You're also confusing Natural Selection with Evolution. Have a look at this thread which I started about this subject. What exactly is "Natural Selection"?

Evolution IS change. The notion that there has to be a transition from one "kind" of animal to another (this is meaningless in science, though, since there is no such thing as a "kind" anyway) is simply not true. I could care less what you think the definition is, because you're wrong:

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/evolution-definition.html

Scientists would laugh at your "definition." You see, creationists and pseudoscientists don't get to define what scientific terms mean, scientists do.

As for Natural Selection:

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-intro-to-biology.html#natsel

NS is a part of evolution, but I'm certainly not confusing the two. This lab study COULDN'T be about natural selection, after all, since it wasn't occuring under "natural" conditions.

Isn't this just like creating variations of dogs?

No, because here we have a documented case of speciation. All breeds of dogs are part of the same species. However, here we have the production of a different species, thanks to evolutionary mechanisms.

However, the different breeds of dogs ARE examples of evolution. Selective breeding is human-controlled evolution of animals.

I like this response to a reader on TO who tried to make the same claim:

http://www.talkorigins.org/origins/feedback/jan99.html

Another person who wants science to show "A" evolving into "Z". The answer is that "A" doesn't directly evolve into "Z". "A" evolves into "B", and "B" evolves into "C", and so on unto "Z". The fact that small changes can be observed in short-lived species is EVIDENCE of a to b, b to c, etc. If you're waiting for scientists to observe a little white mouse evolve into a human, you're seriously misinformed.

It's also like all the colors of the rainbow... Deep red on one side, then all shades of orange, yellow, different varieties of green, all sorts of blues, and purple on the other side. You want to be shown that red turns into purple, but you won't allow any of the subtle changes in between. The changes ARE as small as the "new varieties" that you speak of. That IS the process. (I think you might be in denial).

Do you think lungs just "popped up" in an individual fish?? The mechanism for new genetic information is mutations. Imagine (if you have an imagination) that a freshwater fish had a mutation which allowed the lining inside its esophagus to absorb oxygen directly. None of the other fish would have had this trait. Maybe for hundreds of generations this trait was passed on without any real benefit, but as a neutral trait. Then the oxygen became depleted in the lake in which this fish lived. The fish discovered that it could swim up to the surface of the water and get a gulp of air. (This is EXACTLY what the LUNGFISH does today). Now there is selective pressure to evolve a proper lung. With the fish spending time near the surface, it skimmed the shallows for food. To assist this, bony fins that can be used for propulsion would be extremely useful, such as in the mudskipper. When it evolved, it was inevitable that the fish would use it's ability to go up on shore to exploit an untapped food resource. Then came amphibians, with moist skins who still had to lay their eggs in water... and so on. Impossible in a human lifetime- even in the whole history of human life. But it's not impossible in, say, 50 million years. This is just a hypothetical, but possible, scenario that I came up with off the top of my head, and I'm not a professional scientist. The alternative-- mud-man and rib-woman, is totally unscientific and unbelievable.

You're like a man walking through a forest of giant sequoia trees. You look at the giant trees, and see a few tiny saplings, and say "You can't show me how these little two-foot high saplings can turn into these 300 foot giant trees!" No one has witness the process from seed to full grown giant redwood! It takes time.

You also apparently need to read this on Abiogenesis, or click the seach button.

As for sex, try this link: Sexual reproduction. One thing is important to understand. We cannot say how such things DID evolve, because they left no physical trace. We can suggest how such things MIGHT HAVE evolved (and be confident that we have a high degree of accuracy), based on the physical evidence we do have, and on biological processes that are well known, and by what is suggested from living species. But there is nothing wrong with that- it doesn't change the fact that it happened. That's the way historical sciences work.

The things you say are being "swept under the carpet" are just the things you haven't taken the time to properly research. The answers are out there. To look at a creationist website or book that says "evolutionists are sweeping the molecular origin of life under the carpet" and stop there is only serving your apriori bias. You can't stop at their uninformed propaganda- it simply isn't good enough.
 
But Chris Jiggins at the University of Edinburgh and his colleagues were able to recreate butterflies with the same characteristics as H. heurippa after just three generations of breeding in the lab between two related parent species - H. melpomene and H. cydno.
Sounds to me less like evolution, and more like scientists recreating what they've already found in nature, and taking the credit for it.

And anyway, even if this is evolution in action - it was guided in a lab. Wouldn't that show that only guided evolution would work anyway, and unguided is bogus?
 
Elrohir said:
Sounds to me less like evolution, and more like scientists recreating what they've already found in nature, and taking the credit for it.

And anyway, even if this is evolution in action - it was guided in a lab. Wouldn't that show that only guided evolution would work anyway, and unguided is bogus?

First, "recreating" a species they found in nature via selective breeding is certainly still evolution. It's not "natural selection," but natural selection is not required for evolution, only some sort of "selection" is (i.e. sexual selection).

Second, isn't it a bit contradictory to claim that by replicating a species they found in nature that therefore it's somehow "bogus" that unguided evolution wouldn't work? I mean, the species had to have gotten there naturally first.

Replicating a case of naturally-occuring evolution doesn't prove it can't occur naturally, any more than creating artificial diamonds would prove they can't be formed naturally!
 
Boris Godunov said:
First, "recreating" a species they found in nature via selective breeding is certainly still evolution. It's not "natural selection," but natural selection is not required for evolution, only some sort of "selection" is (i.e. sexual selection).

Second, isn't it a bit contradictory to claim that by replicating a species they found in nature that therefore it's somehow "bogus" that unguided evolution wouldn't work? I mean, the species had to have gotten there naturally first.

Replicating a case of naturally-occuring evolution doesn't prove it can't occur naturally, any more than creating artificial diamonds would prove they can't be formed naturally!
But if it's guided by man, it's not "evolution" - it's "breeding", and we've done it for millenia. How is breeding butterflies in a lab any different from breeding cows on a farm, or dogs in a Medieval kennel, only more precise? I don't see why this is some big important breakthrough; perhaps you could enlighten me.

No, you're right, it doesn't prove that it couldn't ever happen naturally. But it definitely doesn't prove that it could, or did, either. :)
 
Abgar said:
The definition of species that I learned in Bio, is a group of organisms that can produce fertile offspring (i.e. a tiger and a lion can breed, but only produce infertile Ligers or Tigrons, depending on the parentage).

This is interesting because I had always thought that 2 different species couldn't produce an offspring that was fertile, but this will change how evolution is taught now.
Actually, tigons at least are not entirely infertile. I'm not sure if they can breed with each other, but I know they can breed with lions to produce litigons.
 
Elrohir said:
But if it's guided by man, it's not "evolution" - it's "breeding", and we've done it for millenia. How is breeding butterflies in a lab any different from breeding cows on a farm, or dogs in a Medieval kennel, only more precise? I don't see why this is some big important breakthrough; perhaps you could enlighten me.

Selective breeding IS evolution. I don't know how many times I have to say this, but it IS evolution. It's just evolution directed by man.

And once again, this is different from the breeding of cows and such because we have here speciation, which does NOT occur in breeding such animals. All dogs are of the same species, as are all cows. This new butterfly is NOT of the same species as its pregenitors.

No, you're right, it doesn't prove that it couldn't ever happen naturally. But it definitely doesn't prove that it could, or did, either. :)

Sure it does. The claim of creationists is that there is some sort of barrier to speciation in nature. Ergo they accept "microevolution," which is the same as breeding, but reject "macroevolution," which is speciation. This is proof that macroevolution does indeed occur. The scientists didn't do anything that could not happen in nature, AND they replicated a species that was identical to one already extant. That's pretty strong evidence that speciation is going to be occuring in nature.
 
Taliesin said:
Actually, tigons at least are not entirely infertile. I'm not sure if they can breed with each other, but I know they can breed with lions to produce litigons.

That names already taken, litigons are the theroretical force carriers for lawyers :)

What's the beef someone recreated evolution in a lab, good for them, I don't understand why people are trying to pick holes in this research, all it shows is evolution occurs in a lab and concurs with what we thought about nature, it's long awaited denial of creationist propaganda, unless you believe in creationism this shouldn't matter a jot to you, it's not saying God is dead :D

EDIT: Sorry Boris cross post, your explanation is better but then I just wanted to make that delightfully weak joke about lawyers, so my heart wasn't in it :D
 
classical_hero said:
By that definition then becoming an Adult is evolution. That is just crazy.

No, by definition evolution does not and has never referred to changes within an individual. By definition, it has referred to changes within a species by individuals.
 
Eran of Arcadia said:
No, by definition evolution does not and has never referred to changes within an individual. By definition, it has referred to changes within a species by individuals.
That is natural selection. And Natural selection does not equal evolution because it was first brought up in Creationist circles before Darwin stole it.
 
There's no true addition of information into the butterfly genome in this case, merely a transfer from one species to another (As happens in all sexual reproduction). Thus, it is not the "true" evolution that a Creationist inists on seeing before it will decide evolution is true.
 
Boris Godunov said:
Selective breeding IS evolution. I don't know how many times I have to say this, but it IS evolution. It's just evolution directed by man.

And once again, this is different from the breeding of cows and such because we have here speciation, which does NOT occur in breeding such animals. All dogs are of the same species, as are all cows. This new butterfly is NOT of the same species as its pregenitors.
In a way, yes it is. But then, human beings have been breeding animals for several thousand yearsl why is this so important then? How is this any more remarkable than someone breeding cows, and finally getting one that produces twice as much milk as it's ancestor? Actually, I would consider that much more important, as milk can be drunk or used to make food; while having a "new" type of butterfly is cool, but relatively useless in a practical sense.

That's just the thing: It's not a "new" butterfly. They recreated what already existed from something else that already existed. That's like saying you built a "new" house when all you did was tear out the old roof, and replace it with a new one. That's cool, but it's not a new house - that's cool, but it's not really a new species of butterfly.

Sure it does. The claim of creationists is that there is some sort of barrier to speciation in nature. Ergo they accept "microevolution," which is the same as breeding, but reject "macroevolution," which is speciation. This is proof that macroevolution does indeed occur. The scientists didn't do anything that could not happen in nature, AND they replicated a species that was identical to one already extant. That's pretty strong evidence that speciation is going to be occuring in nature.
No, it doesn't. This proves that microevolution can happen, especially when guided. We already knew that! Everyone from Dr. Dobson to Billy Graham believed that! It's been going on for thousands of years. But just because minor changes can be done in a lab doesn't mean major changes can be done in nature. It doesn't mean they couldn't, but it definitely does not imply that it could, or would either.
 
classical_hero said:
By that definition then becoming an Adult is evolution. That is just crazy.

Evolution is a change in population, not an individual. That was clearly stated in the scientific definition I provided for you. You are refusing to read and/or comprehend.

That is natural selection. And Natural selection does not equal evolution because it was first brought up in Creationist circles before Darwin stole it.

No, it's not. Natural selection is just that--nature "selecting" certain individuals in a population for success. Natural selection is a mechanism that helps enable evolution, but it is not the only mechanism, since genetic mutation is required first so something can indeed be selected. As I said, nothing in this lab experiment can be considered "natural selection," as it was not under natural conditions. This experiment used human selection as a mechanism, and the end result was evolution of a different species.
 
Elrohir said:
In a way, yes it is. But then, human beings have been breeding animals for several thousand yearsl why is this so important then? How is this any more remarkable than someone breeding cows, and finally getting one that produces twice as much milk as it's ancestor? Actually, I would consider that much more important, as milk can be drunk or used to make food; while having a "new" type of butterfly is cool, but relatively useless in a practical sense.

Who cares about practicality in this instance? The experiment was done with the intent to produce something for our benefit, except the furthering of insight into how evolution works. But you keep ignoring the point that this was a speciation. That's why it's important, since breeding animals has NOT resulted in speciation. All dogs are the same species. All cows are the same species. These butterflies are NOT the same species.

That's just the thing: It's not a "new" butterfly. They recreated what already existed from something else that already existed. That's like saying you built a "new" house when all you did was tear out the old roof, and replace it with a new one. That's cool, but it's not a new house - that's cool, but it's not really a new species of butterfly.

And this is 100% irrelevant to the issue at hand. The fact that the scientists could reproduce a naturally-occuring species via selection is strong evidence for naturally-occuring evolution. All of the genetic changes in the populations are perfectly possible in a natural setting, the scientists simply helped things along with purposeful breeding. There's nothing stopping such a thing occuring naturally.

No, it doesn't. This proves that microevolution can happen, especially when guided. We already knew that! Everyone from Dr. Dobson to Billy Graham believed that! It's been going on for thousands of years. But just because minor changes can be done in a lab doesn't mean major changes can be done in nature. It doesn't mean they couldn't, but it definitely does not imply that it could, or would either.

Speciation is MACROEVOLUTION. I explained this already: creationists accept evolution within species (microevolution), and only because the evidence is so abundant they can't deny it. But they do deny that speciation occurs, which is what they mean when they say "macroevolution." This experiment proves that macroevolution does indeed occur (although it has been proven in the past as well).

And it certainly does imply that more major changes can and will occur. As of yet, not a single barrier mechanism to such changes over long periods of time has been shown to exist by those who deny such a thing. All they have done have waved their hands and say "it's impossible!" while spouting erroneous claims such as all genetic mutations being harmful, which is a proven falsehood.

Logically, if small genetic changes over a few generations can lead to a new species, there is no reason to not believe that as time goes on, continued genetic changes will lead to more and more differences between species and their descendants. We've have abundant fossil and genetic evidence that proves this, and now we have direct observation of the very thing that creationists deny can happen, which is macroevolution.
 
btw, ch, I read your thread on NS--it was quite amusing. You have already been schooled in your errors, but persist in making the same false arguments.

I will address the false claim that Darwin somehow plagiarized Blythe. This was proven to be incorrect back in the 1970s:

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/precursors/precursnatsel.html

Eiseley's argument that Darwin had borrowed from Blyth based on of a similarity in terminology has been disproven, on the grounds that Darwin used the term before he could have read Blyth, and because Darwin had clearly developed some of the focal planks of his theory by that point, observations made in rebuttal by Beddall 1972 and 1973 and Schwartz 1974 to Eiseley's claims 4 to 6 years before his literary executors reissued his earlier essays. See also Ospovat. The Eiseley view is repeated on the web at this site. Gould says something about this that is worth repeating, and I am indebted to a respondent named Seth Jackson for bringing it to my attention:

"The following kind of incident has occurred over and over again, ever since Darwin. An evolutionist, browsing through some pre-Darwinian tome in natural history, comes upon a description of natural selection. Aha, he says; I have found something important, a proof that Darwin wasn’t original. Perhaps I have even discovered a source of direct and nefarious pilfering by Darwin! In the most notorious of these claims, the great anthropologist and writer Loren Eiseley thought that he had detected such an anticipation in the writings of Edward Blyth. Eiseley laboriously worked through the evidence that Darwin had read (and used) Blyth’s work and, making a crucial etymological mistake along the way (Gould, 1987c), finally charged that Darwin may have pinched the central idea for his theory from Blyth. He published his case in a long article (Eiseley, 1959), later expanded by his executors into a posthumous volume entitled "Darwin and the Mysterious Mr. X" (1979)."

Yes, Blyth had discussed natural selection, but Eiseley didn’t realize – thus committing the usual and fateful error in this common line of argument – that all good biologists did so in the generations before Darwin. Natural selection ranked as a standard item in biological discourse – but with a crucial difference from Darwin’s version: the usual interpretation invoked natural selection as part of a larger argument for created permanency. Natural selection, in this negative formulation, acted only to preserve the type, constant and inviolate, by eliminating extreme variants and unfit individuals who threatened to degrade the essence of created form. Paley himself presents the following variant of this argument, doing so to refute (in later pages) a claim that modern species preserve the good designs winnowed from a much broader range of initial creations after natural selection had eliminated the less viable forms: "The hypothesis teaches, that every possible variety of being hath, at one time or other, found its way into existence (by what cause of in what manner is not said), and that those which were badly formed, perished" (Paley, 1803, pp. 70-71).

Darwin's theory therefore cannot be equated with the simple claim that natural selection operates. Nearly all his colleagues and predecessors accepted this postulate. Darwin, in his characteristic and radical way, grasped that this standard mechanism for preserving the type could be inverted, and then converted into the primary cause of evolutionary change. Natural selection obviously lies at the center of Darwin's theory, but we must recognize, as Darwin's second key postulate, the claim that natural selection acts as the creative force of evolutionary change. The essence of Darwinism cannot reside in the mere observation that natural selection operates - for everyone had long accepted a negative role for natural selection in eliminating the unfit and preserving the type."
Gould, S. (2002). The Structure of Evolutionary Theory. Cambridge, Massachusetts: The Belknap Press of Harvard University Press. Page 137. The Gould 1987c reference is to An Urchin in the Storm, but no page reference is given.
 
Boris Godunov said:
Who cares about practicality in this instance? The experiment was done with the intent to produce something for our benefit, except the furthering of insight into how evolution works. But you keep ignoring the point that this was a speciation. That's why it's important, since breeding animals has NOT resulted in speciation. All dogs are the same species. All cows are the same species. These butterflies are NOT the same species.
All cows are now classified as the same species, true - but still able to breed with other related species inside the Family Bovidae. And according to this link, the original H. heurippa butterflies were probably hybrids anyway, just like the ones they bred in the lab. In other words, this isn't anything special; it's just what naturally happens when you mate these two types of butterflies. It's proof that similer life can breed to produce slightly different life, (Already known and agreed upon) but that's all. It's no different from seeing that a bison and a cow can crossbreed, being of different species but the same Family. This isn't some grand, wonderful new discovery - it's pretty much what we've always known.

Speciation is MACROEVOLUTION. I explained this already: creationists accept evolution within species (microevolution), and only because the evidence is so abundant they can't deny it. But they do deny that speciation occurs, which is what they mean when they say "macroevolution." This experiment proves that macroevolution does indeed occur (although it has been proven in the past as well).

And it certainly does imply that more major changes can and will occur. As of yet, not a single barrier mechanism to such changes over long periods of time has been shown to exist by those who deny such a thing. All they have done have waved their hands and say "it's impossible!" while spouting erroneous claims such as all genetic mutations being harmful, which is a proven falsehood.

Logically, if small genetic changes over a few generations can lead to a new species, there is no reason to not believe that as time goes on, continued genetic changes will lead to more and more differences between species and their descendants. We've have abundant fossil and genetic evidence that proves this, and now we have direct observation of the very thing that creationists deny can happen, which is macroevolution.
"Major changes"? Two types of butterflies have a hybrid butterfly; and this is a "major change"? Forgive me if I am unimpressed. Let me know when you get life to evolve into something that's actually different.

Anyway, this will be my last post in this topic. I'm tired of debating something that A) Doesn't fundamentally matter, and B) Is useless because the opposition won't listen to simple logic. Thank you for this little discussion; until next time.:)
 
Elrohir said:
All cows are now classified as the same species, true - but still able to breed with other related species inside the Family Bovidae. And according to this link, the original H. heurippa butterflies were probably hybrids anyway, just like the ones they bred in the lab. In other words, this isn't anything special; it's just what naturally happens when you mate these two types of butterflies. It's proof that similer life can breed to produce slightly different life, (Already known and agreed upon) but that's all. It's no different from seeing that a bison and a cow can crossbreed, being of different species but the same Family. This isn't some grand, wonderful new discovery - it's pretty much what we've always known.

Wow. It's as if you didn't even read the article you cited! :lol:

"Sexual encounters between species resulting in hybrid offspring may be common in nature. However, homoploid hybrid species -- fully sexual hybrid species resulting from crosses between two different parent species -- are still considered to be quite rare. In Ragoletis fruit flies, Swordtail fishes and African Cichlids there is growing evidence for homoploid hybrid speciation. This report of the laboratory creation of a hybrid butterfly nearly identical to a known wild species, and the observation that hybrid individuals don't mate with either parent species, provides the most convincing case to-date for homoploid hybrid speciation in animals."

This is quite different from cow and dog breeding.

"Major changes"? Two types of butterflies have a hybrid butterfly; and this is a "major change"? Forgive me if I am unimpressed. Let me know when you get life to evolve into something that's actually different.

Your definition of "major change" is just a bunch of goal-post moving that has nothing to do with scientific reality. Creationists have whined forever that evolution can't produce different species, and here is proof positive that it does. This is precisely what is meant by macroevolution, and this is precisely what we see. The characture that we need to see dogs giving birth to cats or whatever such rubbish to prove evolution true is just part and parcel of attempts to deny the obvious.

Use your simple logic for me: if we have proof that evolution occurs (microevolution, as is acknowledged by everyone), and we have proof that new species can arise from evolutionary change, and we have proof that the further separated from pregenitors, the greater the amount of evolutionary change, what logically prevents large changes from accumulating over long periods of time? Can you name me a proven mechanism that prevents this from being possible?

Oh, wait, you're running off. I'll have to guess your answer...
 
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