Evolving Intelligence

[Commander Bello]

I like the idea of false information, yet don't see how the AI would be able to do so.
Maybe just adding a RNG to what you are looking for:
diplo relations => 1 = peace, 2 = trades, 3 = MPP and so on.
unit locations => x,y coordinates
trades => gpt gained from / paid to country x
All those information then could be distorted by adding smaller or bigger numbers...

 

[rhialto]

I'd beware of relying on spies too much for all intelligence type tasks. A HUGE amount of information is freely available. Assuming the two nations are at peace, it would simply be a case of your ambassador asking the courtiers what's going on. If they are at war but the other civ has discovered mass media (newspapers, radio, or TV), again it is trivially easy to gain a lot of basic intelligence.

Under either of those cases, at least the following should be free and automatic to know:

Government type
military stance
official religion
Location of strategic resources and luxury resources
Maps (how much does an atlas cost again? Ordnance survey maps anyone? This item might depend specifically on having mass media in the target civ though)
Approximate wealth (more than 1/10/100/1000 gold, ie. to an order of magnitude)
Diplomatic relations with other civ's contacted by both that and your own civ

 

[Commander Bello]

As military stance and location of ressources indeed are strategically important information, I would expect that to be hidden. Especially the later, as hiding this will prohibit any "bee-lining"

 

[rhialto]

Well, yes, they are strategically important. But then, can you tell me where the prime spice growing areas on Earth are? How about the most plentiful sources of oil? Or what about where the main coal deposits are? Even if you don't know off-hand, I can guarantee you that a half-decent high school atlas will have this information.

As Stalin once said (approximately), what do I need spies for when I have their newspapers?

 

[Commander Bello]

Agreed, but this is the difference between a game and reality.

In no country on earth they would know about artillery but wouldn't make proper use of it. In the game, unfortunately, they do.

Not displaying "unknown" - that is, not detected by own forces - ressources is the equivalence of keeping your industrial potential as much a secret as possible, or at least to protect it in the best available manner.

 

[rhialto]

That artillery thing is an artifact of badly written AI. I wouldn't use that to justify deliberately making something unrealistic.

 

[Commander Bello]

That artillery thing is an artifact of badly written AI. I wouldn't use that to justify deliberately making something unrealistic.

.. but it displays some weaknesses of the AI, as it will not understand the meaning of the human troops bee-lining towards their only iron/oil/whatever ressource.
Even in a very good programmed cIV we will find similar things, as no program on earth is nor will be perfect.
So, abstracting certain things will make things easier and still understandable.

We as humans can easily crush the AI by ripping their trade lines, thus making them "break" their trades. We can cut off their supply lines (strategic ressources) with little effort and the AI will almost never understand even this concept, even less it will ever be able to properly counter those actions.

In this context, hiding ressources on the map until your own units have spotted them indeed adds to the strategic depth of the game, as now you will have to search for them. Until you have found them, the human advantage of troop concentration and decisive blows is eliminated - as far as those ressources are concerned.

Of course, this doesn't mean that I would opt against any effort of improving the AI. But I doubt that it will be able to counter human military decisions in the near future.

 

[rhialto]

Traditionally, stepping across a nation's borders with soldiers has been regarded as a de facto act of war. Implementing this as a game rule (with a warning - Sire, do you really want to declare war on them?) would go a long way towards preventing such beelining.

 

[Commander Bello]

Traditionally, stepping across a nation's borders with soldiers has been regarded as a de facto act of war. Implementing this as a game rule (with a warning - Sire, do you really want to declare war on them?) would go a long way towards preventing such beelining.

It wouldn't. Not, if I want to bee-line.
And still, the AI is not able to cope with this. So, let the human at least have to search for the ressources.

 

[Darwin420]

To bring back on track to the original subject, I'm going to go with the misinformation and how the AI can handle it. Actually, it should be quite simple.

There are choices to be made when you know a spy is operating in your territory:

IGNORE INCIDENT (not bloody likely)
DECLARE WAR
DEMAND RETRIBUTION
FEED MISINFORMATION

Basically, the AI would be programmed with a hardcoded preference for an answer, but influences by what gov't they are and how strong their military is compared to yours, and other factors. These numbers would add up, and based on that total, the AI makes it's choice.

If you are a very strong empire, they will probably ignore the incident, but if there is even a chance they can win against you, then it would probably be war - if they're pacifistic, then probably you'll be fed misinformation.

It's not that hard to play a numbers game with the AI. It would just take playtesting to ensure the balance works well enough to be somewhat realistic.

 

[dh_epic]

One thing that I like about Aussie's model, as opposed to the current model...

Intelligence and espionage is something you can build up and accumulate.
Right now, espionage is a bunch of seperate events.

If you build up intelligence -- you really invest the time and money on well trained spies, and you support them in trying to get them installed around the world -- suddenly you can leverage intelligence as a strength.

As opposed to the current system, where everyone builds an equal spy system which allows you to do whatever you want at the drop of a dime -- so long as you have hundreds of gold.

If intelligence is something you invest in over the long term, it becomes an asset. In fact, I could see "peaceful" nations investing less in military and more into intelligence, to keep rivals down... without once picking up a gun!

(PS: little spy units are just another disaster waiting to happen. Not worth it.)

 

[Aussie_Lurker]

Actually, DH_Epic, that was how I would sometimes play 'Birth of the Federation'. Though I would have a powerful, defensive fleet-just in case-I would often be able to coax two major powers into war by frequently 'planting' evidence at the scenes of MY crimes-implicating the other nation !

Yours,
Aussie_Lurker.

 

[dh_epic]

Damn, you guys play some interesting sounding games. I truly never liked a strategy game as much as I liked Civ.