Expanding and science slide

[Gaires]

As for the cottages, a cottage has to be worked by a city for a very long time to become a village or town. Until then they are not that strong. This means that you want to build them early, and in locations where you actually will work them most of the time.

Well, sometimes it's better to build temporary cottage to bad spot than to run unimproved tile, or plain forest or something like that.
For example usually i build cottages on calender resources before i get calender and then i just switch them to plantations.

 

[blitzkrieg1980]

Well, sometimes it's better to build temporary cottage to bad spot than to run unimproved tile, or plain forest or something like that.
For example usually i build cottages on calender resources before i get calender and then i just switch them to plantations.

This is true. Additionally, if you have > 3 of a particular calendar lux resource, it may be better to cottage the additional ones for the entire game as that extra will always be with you.

Also, I'd like to add that in the early and early-mid game, every point is valuable. So those cottages and hamlets still add to your early game economy and can even fund expansion if used properly.

 

[elitetroops]

Well, sometimes it's better to build temporary cottage to bad spot than to run unimproved tile, or plain forest or something like that.
For example usually i build cottages on calender resources before i get calender and then i just switch them to plantations.

Yes, I like cottaging calendar resources as well. Sometimes they aren't even temporary. A town on dye will generate more commerce after printing press than a plantation. But on the other hand, with a plantation on the dye you might be able to sell it for a lot of /turn, so you have to weigh your options there.

And of course, there are exceptions to everything I said, except perhaps the 'don't run serfdom' part. Even I sometimes settle cities without food. But the point is, first you must understand the basics of good play and the reason why things ideally should be done in a certain way. Only then can you start applying exceptions to those "rules".

 

[blitzkrieg1980]

Don't forget Free Speech +2 bonus. Those lux resources are ridiculous with fully developed towns. You even get some if running UnivSuff and city has a levee. Just thinking about that tile is pretty awesome. FIN leader would see 2 2 10.

My general rule: if I have > 3 of dye resource, I'll gladly cottage over the 4th. Map size dependent, of course.

 

[Tatran]

barbertje found his 2 cities on the north and south quite far from capital/his border

I can understand why Lagos (gold), but Evora.
I don't understand why the second or third city hasn't grab one of the two marble resources.
100% discount on wonders is huge.

Here's an example :

Spoiler :

(Emperor + huge Hemi map + 11 AIs + raging barbs + goody huts + events)
Berlin was SIP.
Second city, Hamburg to grab ivory.
Third city, Munich to grab fur.
Fourth city, Cologne farway in NW was settled on stone.
Rewards : all wonders so far (GW+Oracle+ToA+TGL+Mids+HG+Col+GLib) except the Stonehenge

 

[barbertje]

3) barbertje found his 2 cities on the north and south quite far from capital/his border; is it good in this "starter"? what about maintenance?

Distance maintenance is lower on huge maps. The cities only pay 1.7 and 1.5 gold in distance maintenance.
Maintenance due to number of cities also grows more slowly. Both cities only pay 1.2 gold in number of cities maintenance.

4) his city on south was founded on floodplains? is it advisable despite of health penalty?

The floodplains city is connected to the rest of my empire with sailing and I already have 4 health resources which will give a total of +6 health with a granary. It's near fresh water and Joao is expansive, which gives another +4 to health. The health won't be a problem until size 12 even with chopping all the forests, and I'll get more resources before that.
The flood plains city doesn't have food in the first ring, because there wasn't a spot with food in the first ring and more than a couple of flood plains. this isn't bad for the sixth city, but it will slow your expansion a lot if you do it with your second city.

 

[barbertje]

I can understand why Lagos (gold), but Evora.
I don't understand why the second or third city hasn't grab one of the two marble resources.
100% discount on wonders is huge.

What's wrong with Evora? There really aren't that much mre good spots around, since I don't have ironworking yet, and can't settle the junge. The marble spot isn't very good. Since Joao is so good at expanding, it's important to get some commerce going too, the riverside cottages in the capital and Guimaraes won't pay for all the cities you can settle here. The marble will certainly be hooked up in time for the mausoleum and the great library.

I played this until 1240 AD and settled 27 cities and got one more from the barbs.
An overwhelming army of cannons and drafted muskets will attack Alex by 1300.
The science slider is around 40% producing 300 beakers. but I'm getting close to banks.
View attachment AutoSave_AD-1240.CivBeyondSwordSave

 

[alosza]

I played this until 1240 AD and settled 27 cities and got one more from the barbs.
An overwhelming army of cannons and drafted muskets will attack Alex by 1300.
The science slider is around 40% producing 300 beakers. but I'm getting close to banks.
View attachment 382962

Wow. Impressive to me.

Maybe I'll try to ask a different question:
1) when to stop expanding, despite having a lot of space? (Map like above, in future space race with rival on the other continent)
2) Is converting hammers to beakers a good idea? (When expanding intensive)

 

[jackelgull]

Well turning hammers into wealth is generally the better idea, but in a pinch turning hammers into beakers works too.

 

[elitetroops]

Yes, building wealth is better than building science in most cases. Building science is mostly used before currency, or if you are rushing to a tech and already have your slider at 100% and can keep it there until you get your tech. If slider is <100%, then it is better to build wealth so that you can raise the slider and get more commerce to run through your science multiplier buildings.

Still even better is to build failgold if you have stone/marble or are industrious. You don't get the cash immediately, but with the resource you get a 2:1 hammers to gold ratio. Add industrious and organized religion and you are almost at 3:1. In addition, you can put whip overflow and chops into wonders, which you can't into wealth. And with national wonders, or world wonders you are planning to build yourself, you can control when you get the cash. This is a pretty overpowered mechanic which, when abused, can let you keep the slider at 100% throughout the entire game.

As for the question about when to stop expanding, that's all up to your economy managing skills. There is no set number of cities, it depends on how well you manage those cities. If you ask top HoF players this question, then the answer is probably "when you are as close as you can get to the domination limit without tripping it until you win your space race". But that wouldn't work for most normal people, because setting up a strong economy while expanding like that is very hard. For you, if you are decided on going for space, I'd say expand to all good city spots there is, head for lib-> MT or Steel, conquer the rest of the continent, then head for space. Should work pretty well.

 

[Gaires]

Wow. Impressive to me.

Maybe I'll try to ask a different question:
1) when to stop expanding, despite having a lot of space? (Map like above, in future space race with rival on the other continent)
2) Does converting hammers to beakers is a good idea? (When expanding intensive)

Trial and error is powerful learning tool in how many cities you can build.
Like said, it depends on your economy and economy skills, but to get general idea, best thing to do is just try, so start some new games and look how much you can expand without falling behind or being attacked.
For example, once i decided "let's axe rush", started new game chose Tokugawa and axe rushed, well my science slider went to 0% while losing money, i couldn't build workers to get it higher because they all left right away, my axes left and other AI attacked me. Well i did learn not to take every city when axe rushing, and that i had too weak economy to support axes + those new cities.

 

[blitzkrieg1980]

I think an easy way to look at it is "If I start with 2 grassland gems in the capital BFC, I can easily expand to 4 or 5 cities (monarch - adjust for difficulty) without totally tanking my economy JUST on my capital's income".

From that statement, you can derive how much commerce is needed to expand x number of cities.

For example: If I can grow vertically early (like with Charism leader), and I have riverside tiles in my first expansion city, I can plant 6 cottages there while still using the capital for whipping settlers/workers. 6x2=12+2(trade & city center) = 14. That's as much as 2 gems mines and then some. This city can fuel expansion of another 2 - 4 cities depending on distance/difficulty.

Although Charism and/or having lux resource in BFC are niche situations, the thought process behind expansion is the same. How much do I have available to support my expansion? What was the effect on the science slider when I planted my second city? How much do I need to support my expansion needs? Where will I get the to do so? Since commerce is the only source of until reaching Currency, it isn't so advanced to answer these questions. The trick is to ask them from the very start of the game.

Thanks to Writing being a fairly early tech (and relatively cheap for what it unlocks), science is able to be created while, at the same time, lowering the slider. Balancing for military/barb defense, I'm likely to whip libraries in most of my initial cities. Running scientists will get you the you would normally seek from the slider which frees the slider up to be lowered (funding expansion) without totally killing your research.

 

[manaballs]

This is how the ballers do it. Tech to writing keeping you slider as high as you can. After writing drop your slider to zero saving gold until you build your library. Then research asthetics (or whatever the appropiate tech is determined by the flow of the game) at 100% slider with your banked gold. Hopefully you have put two scientist specialist somewhere in your empire as fast as you can to pop a great scientist for an academy. 7 turns or so away from your academy drop your slider back down to 0 banking the gold to run your slider at 100% after the academy is built. Depending on the game you would probably be researching curreny by this time. Remember, It is always better to save your gold after the modifiers have been built and research at 100% then to stick it at 50%.

A good way to get said gold is building wonders and national wonders for fail gold. These economic tactics are crucial for victory when in immortal and higher. But if you start using them now you will be ahead of the game and you will severley outtech emperor and below AI. Like really really hard, it won't even be close.