Expansion Civic

[1234567890]

I looked at this thread and this one, and I thought about a new civic category, just like Rhye's and Fall of Civilization special one. Well, I already posted many ideas (WH religion, playing as Agares), but they weren't 'serious' ones. I mean, I just wanted to see if the team had liked them. But this time, I will give a huge list of details, and I'll explain why it's really worth implementing, so I hope you won't just say TL;DR and forgot it.

Here is my new Civic Category:

Expansion

Assimilation

Tech required: None. It's the default civic.

Upkeep: Low.

Description: Whenever you capture an ennemy city, you want them to adopt your civ. If you produce of your own in this city, its citizens will slowly convert to your civ, until they are completely integrated in your culture. You have assimilated these citizens.

Advantages/Drawbacks: None. The assmiliation will be just like in 'standard' FF.

Oppression (Thanks to WarKirby)

Tech required: Way of the Wicked.

Upkeep: Medium (you need a whole army after all).

Description: As a pitiless dictator, you severely repress any revolt, rebellion or demonstration. You make people work, at swordpoint if need be. Therefore, your cities won't have any unhappiness. But your citizens will feel less motivated, less enthusiast. Don't expect to see any GP (or very few) appear in your empire, and your culture will suffer. Also, your citizens can get angry very easily, so you should put some troops in all of your cities in order to prevent revolts from spawning everywhere! However, your troops are allowed to do whatever they want in order to repress the revolts, including pillage and requisition, so you will start with some free units (they don't need any wages). Good leaders won't like your behaviour and this civic will lower your alignment. And last but not least, since you care little about your people and your cities, your maintenance costs aren't too big, so you can expand faster than other civs. This civic is appropriate for warmongering leaders who don't want to focus on economy, such as the Doviello, the Clan, or the Infernals.

Advantages:
- No in your cities.
- -30% maintenance.
- +N free units.

Drawbacks:
- -80% :gpp:
- -50%
- 2% chance of revolt each turn in each city. This probability is greater if there are foreign citizens in your cities.
- Using this civic will modify your alignment by -200.

Tolerance

Tech required: Way of the Wise.

Upkeep: None.

Description: You are a wise ruler, and you even respect your ennemies and their culture. Your soldiers won't destroy, burn or raze any building in your captured cities. Therefore, you don't get any gold from pillage, but your captured cities will keep their culture and will never revolt. They are already operational as soon as captured ! You also keep their buildings, except the special ones (such as Mother's Nest for the Archoes). Good leaders will admire your wisdom, and this civic increases your alignment. But your citizens will want their leader to have a very right and wise attitude. Don't expect to see them happy if you wage an endless war. This civic is appropriate for pacifist leaders who will only defend themselves, or good leaders who fight against evil ones.

Advantages:
- No revolt in captured cities.
- Your captured cities keep their and buildings.
- Using this civic will modify your alignment by +100.

Drawbacks:
- No from pillage.
- +200% war weariness.

Resettling (inspired from Rhye's scenario)

Tech required: Astronomy?

Upkeep: High.

Description: This civic was used by the Incas, people who lived on a strange world called 'Earth'. They subdued many tribes, and often moved them in order to prevent revolts from spawning. You do the same. Whenever you capture a city, it loses extra population: actually, you keep dividing, moving, mixing populations in order to reduce the patriotism and maintain the unity of your empire, and thus the revolt durations are decreased. However, people don't like to be moved like that, so all of your cities suffer a permanent unhappiness. But this real melting-pot provides you an extra culture and gp. Also, war weariness is decreased as there is no patriotism anymore. Be aware that other civs (either Good or Evil) won't like your behaviour because you don't represent a real nation, and you don't preserve the purity of races. This civic looks balanced; either Good or Evil, warlord or builder civ can pick this civic which can be an alternative to the primitive Assimilation civic.

Advantages:
- +20% in every city.
- +20% in every city.
- -25% war weariness in every city.
- Revolt durations are halved

Drawbacks:
- Extra pop lost when capturing a city.
- +1 in every city.
- -1 diplo relations with everyone (except those who picked the same civic).

Vassalization

Tech required: Feudalism.

Upkeep: Low

Description: This time, you are the ruler of a large empire, and you can't put up with all these minorities trying to revolt everywhere, so you want to give them a kind of autonomy. You cannot directly control your cities (except your capital), but you can only give instructions to the governors. However, what they produce is yours and maintenance costs are lower. Your citizens will be glad to influence other people but they won't accept to be involved in any war as a conflict with one or another minority could result. This civic can be helpful if you are too lazy to do micromanagement in your very large empire, and avoid unhappiness problems without using Oppression.

Advantages:
- -40% maintenance in every city
- +2 in every city

Drawbacks:
- You don't control your cities
- +50% war weariness.

Now, let's see the 2nd point: Why is this idea worth implementing?

- It partially solves the problem pointed out by apotheoser: the Membership category is a waste, and can be replaced by another category.
- It solves the problem pointed out by WarKirby (who suggested the Oppression civic): unhappiness is a real problem.
- This idea prevents absurd situations (Sheaim citizens fearing for their safety at AC 99) from happenning (of course the Sheaim will use the Oppression civic).
- It reintroduces a new form of 'Tolerance', since the Elohim lost this trait in FF.
- It allows broader alignments and encourages battles between Good and Evil: both of them have new abilities (with Tolerance and Oppression).
- Good civs (or Evil civs) are more likely to fight together, as their civic choice will provide them a diplo bonus.
- It prevents micromanagement in the late game (Vassalization is for large and late empires), which can be long and annoying (assuming your computer can handle it) on huge maps.
- It's probably not too hard to code (I heard it was pretty easy to add a new Civic Category)

Well... That's it. If you like my idea, I might add another civic, but I think 5 is pretty fine now. Of course, it needs a lot of balance and work but I hope you will be interested anyway.

 

[Valkrionn]

I looked at this thread and this one, and I thought about a new civic category, just like Rhye's and Fall of Civilization special one. Well, I already posted many ideas (WH religion, playing as Agares), but they weren't 'serious' ones. I mean, I just wanted to see if the team had liked them. But this time, I will give a huge list of details, and I'll explain why it's really worth implementing, so I hope you won't just say TL;DR and forgot it.

Here is my new Civic Category:

Expansion

Assimilation

Tech required: None. It's the default civic.

Upkeep: Low.

Description: Whenever you capture an ennemy city, you want them to adopt your civ. If you produce of your own in this city, its citizens will slowly convert to your civ, until they are completely integrated in your culture. You have assimilated these citizens.

Advantages/Drawbacks: None. The assmiliation will be just like in 'standard' FF.

Oppression (Thanks to WarKirby)

Tech required: Way of the Wicked.

Upkeep: Medium (you need a whole army after all).

Description: As a pitiless dictator, you severely repress any revolt, rebellion or demonstration. You make people work, at swordpoint if need be. Therefore, your cities won't have any unhappiness. But your citizens will feel less motivated, less enthusiast. Don't expect to see any GP (or very few) appear in your empire, and your culture will suffer. Also, your citizens can get angry very easily, so you should put some troops in all of your cities in order to prevent revolts from spawning everywhere! However, your troops are allowed to do whatever they want in order to repress the revolts, including pillage and requisition, so you will start with some free units (they don't need any wages). Good leaders won't like your behaviour and this civic will lower your alignment. And last but not least, since you care little about your people and your cities, your maintenance costs aren't too big, so you can expand faster than other civs. This civic is appropriate for warmongering leaders who don't want to focus on economy, such as the Doviello, the Clan, or the Infernals.

Advantages:
- No in your cities.
- -30% maintenance.
- +N free units.

Drawbacks:
- -80% :gpp:
- -50%
- 2% chance of revolt each turn in each city. This probability is greater if there are foreign citizens in your cities.
- Using this civic will modify your alignment by -200.

The no could be a bit much I think. Unlimited city size, in all cities?

Tolerance

Tech required: Way of the Wise.

Upkeep: None.

Description: You are a wise ruler, and you even respect your ennemies and their culture. Your soldiers won't destroy, burn or raze any building in your captured cities. Therefore, you don't get any gold from pillage, but your captured cities will keep their culture and will never revolt. They are already operational as soon as captured ! You also keep their buildings, except the special ones (such as Mother's Nest for the Archoes). Good leaders will admire your wisdom, and this civic increases your alignment. But your citizens will want their leader to have a very right and wise attitude. Don't expect to see them happy if you wage an endless war. This civic is appropriate for pacifist leaders who will only defend themselves, or good leaders who fight against evil ones.

Advantages:
- No revolt in captured cities.
- Your captured cities keep their and buildings.
- Using this civic will modify your alignment by +100.

Drawbacks:
- No from pillage.
- +200% war weariness.

This one I like, assuming you aren't able to build anything belonging to the captured civ... That falls under Conquerer, which is Decius's trait.

Resettling (inspired from Rhye's scenario)

Tech required: Astronomy?

Upkeep: High.

Description: This civic was used by the Incas, people who lived on a strange world called 'Earth'. They subdued many tribes, and often moved them in order to prevent revolts from spawning. You do the same. Whenever you capture a city, it loses extra population: actually, you keep dividing, moving, mixing populations in order to reduce the patriotism and maintain the unity of your empire, and thus the revolt durations are decreased. However, people don't like to be moved like that, so all of your cities suffer a permanent unhappiness. But this real melting-pot provides you an extra culture and gp. Also, war weariness is decreased as there is no patriotism anymore. Be aware that other civs (either Good or Evil) won't like your behaviour because you don't represent a real nation, and you don't preserve the purity of races. This civic looks balanced; either Good or Evil, warlord or builder civ can pick this civic which can be an alternative to the primitive Assimilation civic.

Advantages:
- +20% in every city.
- +20% in every city.
- -25% war weariness in every city.
- Revolt durations are halved

Drawbacks:
- Extra pop lost when capturing a city.
- +1 in every city.
- -1 diplo relations with everyone (except those who picked the same civic).

Vassalization

Tech required: Feudalism.

Upkeep: Low

Description: This time, you are the ruler of a large empire, and you can't put up with all these minorities trying to revolt everywhere, so you want to give them a kind of autonomy. You cannot directly control your cities (except your capital), but you can only give instructions to the governors. However, what they produce is yours and maintenance costs are lower. Your citizens will be glad to influence other people but they won't accept to be involved in any war as a conflict with one or another minority could result. This civic can be helpful if you are too lazy to do micromanagement in your very large empire, and avoid unhappiness problems without using Oppression.

Advantages:
- -40% maintenance in every city
- +2 in every city

Drawbacks:
- You don't control your cities
- +50% war weariness.

Now, let's see the 2nd point: Why is this idea worth implementing?

- It partially solves the problem pointed out by apotheoser: the Membership category is a waste, and can be replaced by another category.
- It solves the problem pointed out by WarKirby (who suggested the Oppression civic): unhappiness is a real problem.
- This idea prevents absurd situations (Sheaim citizens fearing for their safety at AC 99) from happenning (of course the Sheaim will use the Oppression civic).
- It reintroduces a new form of 'Tolerance', since the Elohim lost this trait in FF.
- It allows broader alignments and encourages battles between Good and Evil: both of them have new abilities (with Tolerance and Oppression).
- Good civs (or Evil civs) are more likely to fight together, as their civic choice will provide them a diplo bonus.
- It prevents micromanagement in the late game (Vassalization is for large and late empires), which can be long and annoying (assuming your computer can handle it) on huge maps.
- It's probably not too hard to code (I heard it was pretty easy to add a new Civic Category)

Well... That's it. If you like my idea, I might add another civic, but I think 5 is pretty fine now. Of course, it needs a lot of balance and work but I hope you will be interested anyway.

 

[Quetz]

+some smileys would be far more approriate for oppresion than no unhappiness at all imo. Or at least less overpowered.

 

[PPQ_Purple]

-Removed-

Oppression (Thanks to WarKirby)

Tech required: Way of the Wicked.

Upkeep: Medium (you need a whole army after all).

Advantages:
- No in your cities.
- -30% maintenance.
- +N free units.

Drawbacks:
- -80% :gpp:
- -50%
- 2% chance of revolt each turn in each city. This probability is greater if there are foreign citizens in your cities.
- Using this civic will modify your alignment by -200.

The effects are to owerpowering and cripling at the same time. Why not have an effect that scales with the amount of troops in the city. Something like: 2

, -10% :gpp:, -10% per unit in city. Without that, you would be practicly giving away free happines.

Tolerance

Tech required: Way of the Wise.

Upkeep: None.

Advantages:
- No revolt in captured cities.
- Your captured cities keep their and buildings.
- Using this civic will modify your alignment by +100.

Drawbacks:
- No from pillage.
- +200% war weariness.

Again, a little overpowered.

Resettling (inspired from Rhye's scenario)

Tech required: Astronomy?

Upkeep: High.

Advantages:
- +20% in every city.
- +20% in every city.
- -25% war weariness in every city.
- Revolt durations are halved

Drawbacks:
- Extra pop lost when capturing a city.
- +1 in every city.
- -1 diplo relations with everyone (except those who picked the same civic).

I don't quite understand how this would fit with the concept of resetling?

Vassalization

Tech required: Feudalism.

Upkeep: Low

Description: This time, you are the ruler of a large empire, and you can't put up with all these minorities trying to revolt everywhere, so you want to give them a kind of autonomy. You cannot directly control your cities (except your capital), but you can only give instructions to the governors. However, what they produce is yours and maintenance costs are lower. Your citizens will be glad to influence other people but they won't accept to be involved in any war as a conflict with one or another minority could result. This civic can be helpful if you are too lazy to do micromanagement in your very large empire, and avoid unhappiness problems without using Oppression.

Advantages:
- -40% maintenance in every city
- +2 in every city

Drawbacks:
- You don't control your cities
- +50% war weariness.

What exacly do you mean by "You don't control your cities"? Are they literaly handed over to the AI? It kind of kills the point of the whole CIV experiance.

 

[Keyeth]

A little too powerfull for a "default" civic.

Uh.. This is how the game currently works..

- Your captured cities keep their and buildings.

This, however, is far too powerful. Anyone taking anything other than this, even if you want to oppress people, is kind of off their rocker. Not having to rebuild anything in an entire city, and that city maintaining its culture (and rate) is bonkers. The lack of keeping the buildings was definitely not an oversight, it was so that you didn't get a new city at totally full power, particularly later in the game. It would make capturing someone's capital even more devastating, as it would inevitably contain all buildings up to their tech level, and enough culture to crush most neighboring cities with its weight.

 

[PPQ_Purple]

Uh.. This is how the game currently works..

I thought that you wanted to increase the rate of how it flows.
If not, than it's ok.

 

[Keyeth]

These aren't my ideas, so I'm not actually the one who wanted to control anything.. And also


"Advantages/Drawbacks: None. The assmiliation will be just like in 'standard' FF."

Says it right there. Standard FF

 

[PPQ_Purple]

Well, eather way, the other ones are overpowered or owercripled. Or a combo of the both.

 

[Keyeth]

Or a combo of the both.

This is good. That's balanced. Large benefits for large detriments, niche civics and such, which I think more ought to be like.

the other ones are overpowered or owercripled

This is not good. And I agree, most of them seem pretty brutal or pretty useless. I would never, for example, give up control of my cities, the micromanagement isn't all that bad, and considering how pants on head ******** the AI is and probably always will be (compared to a human with planning and foresight) unless it throttles your CPU thinking, I wouldn't trust them to do anything other than make dozens of workboats and horse archers.

 

[1234567890]

About Oppression:

The no could be a bit much I think. Unlimited city size, in all cities?

The effects are to owerpowering and cripling at the same time. Why not have an effect that scales with the amount of troops in the city. Something like: 2

, -10% :gpp:, -10% per unit in city. Without that, you would be practicly giving away free happines.

This is intentional. You should use this civic if you want to focus on war. Civs such as the Clan, the Doviello or the Infernals care little about their people and their culture. And it definitively solves the problem of unhappiness. But don't forget revolts can happen everywhere in your empire, so it isn't that overpowered.


About Tolerance:

Again, a little overpowered.

This, however, is far too powerful. Anyone taking anything other than this, even if you want to oppress people, is kind of off their rocker. Not having to rebuild anything in an entire city, and that city maintaining its culture (and rate) is bonkers. The lack of keeping the buildings was definitely not an oversight, it was so that you didn't get a new city at totally full power, particularly later in the game. It would make capturing someone's capital even more devastating, as it would inevitably contain all buildings up to their tech level, and enough culture to crush most neighboring cities with its weight.

Yea, I know that ability is great. But the war weariness can be a real handicap. Just declare war to someone and half of your citizens become unhappy and slow down your production. Maybe you shouldn't keep the buildings, but the whole pop and the culture. And add an extra war weariness penalty.

About resettlement

I don't quite understand how this would fit with the concept of resetling?

I explained ALL of the effects. If you don't understand, just read the descritption.

About Vassalization:

What exacly do you mean by "You don't control your cities"? Are they literaly handed over to the AI? It kind of kills the point of the whole CIV experiance.

This is not good. And I agree, most of them seem pretty brutal or pretty useless. I would never, for example, give up control of my cities, the micromanagement isn't all that bad, and considering how pants on head ******** the AI is and probably always will be (compared to a human with planning and foresight) unless it throttles your CPU thinking, I wouldn't trust them to do anything other than make dozens of workboats and horse archers.

The AI manages the production. But you can still give instructions to the governors, in the city screen: "Focus on , :gpp:, , war, etc..." So you don't give up control of your cities. Of course, if you own only 4 cities this civic is pretty useless. But if you own 20 cities (often happens on huge maps in the late game), the maintenance cost and the happiness bonus can be very helpful. And your CPU will be able to handle it.

 

[PPQ_Purple]

The problem is that you are giving a nation infinite becouse you are "opresing them with troops" but without any requirements for those troops to actualy be there.

 

[Keyeth]

Here's the real issue. Say I'm a spiritual ruler. I swap to the basic assimilation civic. I wait until a city is almost done, then I swap to the civic that lets me keep the buildings. I take the city, and I swap back all in a turn, without suffering any war weariness, since I'm not losing units in the first place.

Or say I'm one of the many civs that has a massive reduction to war weariness, then swapping into it just before capturing a major city to swap out of it ten turns later isn't all that big of a loss either. There's really no instance in which keeping buildings seems like an okay thing to me.

Also, and probably more problematic, is that you already seem to have in your head this idea that "X Y and Z civ would use this civic because it's fluffy and flavorful for them too" or it benefits their playstyle. If that's the case, then why would you want all of these civics? Why not just include these into the civs themselves? After-all, the way you are phrasing it makes it seem like it'd be pointless for them to use any other civic.

Also, you make it seem like the auto managing one is just outright best for late game, as you call it the 'late game' civic, but this has two problems:

1) I still hold that it's completely and totally useless. I am not letting the AI control my cities ever, I don't trust them not to do something stupid. Regardless of what I instruct the governors to do. Even if I control 20 cities, it's not all that difficult to manage all of them. I just wind up with a lot of cities producing research or wealth at that point anyway, and if I own 20 cities, the game is probably a foregone conclusion. It's not often that you own 20 cities and are still struggling for dominance.

2) This is pigeonholing. It removes options from the user, if there's a set 'best' for a point in the game. You should be able to mix and match civics to suit a particular playstyle of the *player* on top of the civilization.

 

[Tarquelne]

The problem is that you are giving a nation infinite becouse you are "opresing them with troops" but without any requirements for those troops to actualy be there.

I agree with the basic argument there. I'd like to see the Oppression civic allow oppression via troops rather than sort of take it as a given and help you get more troops. Obviously there's going to be overlap with Social Order but I think that's OK - It'd be good to have an Evil version.

Ideally I'd like to see someone using Oppression able - and often required - to put more and more troops into a troublesome city/region to "keep the lid on."

ATM at least I'm not sold on the details of the other civics, but I like the basic ideas.

 

[zup]

Well if revolutions are implemented, one could make oppression greatly reduce stability and social order increase stability.

 

[ICanHasName?]

Doesn't having troops in a city decrease revolution chances, at least for culture flipping? The civic could just give but then require a military presence in every city you dont want to revolt.

As for the civic that allows AI control of your cities production, that would actually be a neat and unique civic although it would have to give pretty huge bonuses to make up for all the inns and aqueducts you would end up with. It would actually be useful as a general purpose civic, but you would NEED to at least control the capitol or something, to ensure that important stuff like religious heroes and work boats and stuff get built.

 

[zup]

No AI control please. It is dumb. Or maybe it is smarter than me but does things differently from what I want. Even micromanaging 30 cities is preferable. So no AI control please.