Exploration and explorers

[Ahriman]

some units could be on the 'long' supply line, some could even be off the supply line altogether.

Having a mechanic that can lead to units being unable to move does NOT sound like a good idea to me. Particularly when used against the AI; they launch an invasion, and then you pillage a few roads and leave their entire army stranded? Ugh.

And having to check a pathfinding route to every tile seems very complex and non-transparent to a player. A player can't instantly look at a tile and see "how many turns" it is away from your cultural borders.

Making exceptions for rivers makes it even more confusing.

 

[KrikkitTwo]

Having a mechanic that can lead to units being unable to move does NOT sound like a good idea to me. Particularly when used against the AI; they launch an invasion, and then you pillage a few roads and leave their entire army stranded? Ugh.

And having to check a pathfinding route to every tile seems very complex and non-transparent to a player. A player can't instantly look at a tile and see "how many turns" it is away from your cultural borders.

Making exceptions for rivers makes it even more confusing.

2 points,
The 'borders' should not be invisible (they should be clearly visible as the 'supply limit')

Secondly, see the revised idea, I think it might be better to have
1 supply border with severe penalties for leaving it (healing definitely to provide a 'firm limit' provided there a good number of barbarians, as well as a significant maintenance cost, and probably a combat cost to make being out of supply bad for military units... you might also restrict abilities... ie a worker can't build forts out of supply)
and
'impassable' terrain (for most units)

(include promotions/abilities for some units to enter the 'edge' of impassable terrain, and others to enter the 'interior' of it... ie workers could enter the 'edge' of jungle to cut it down/build a road.

 

[Ahriman]

The 'borders' should not be invisible (they should be clearly visible as the 'supply limit')

The real problem isn't their visibility, but their instability; changing whenever roads are pillaged, or if terrain changes, or whatever.

I could see a system where you could still move fine outside supply, but couldn't heal/reinforce.

But if we just make it no healing outside "supply" then we haven't done anything to really change exploration (which was the design goal), all we've done is introduce a logistics system.

And I see no design goal other than "realism" (which is *not* a design goal) in implementing logistics.

 

[Aussie_Lurker]

As I've said before, there are a couple of solutions I can think of which you could apply without it being arbitrary.

Option (1): is to have a high movement penalty associated with non-roaded deserts, tundras & jungles (& possibly forests?) that only scouts & explorers can ignore (or units with the appropriate terrain-specific promotion). The question is whether this penalty should apply at all times, or just outside cultural borders. Obviously roads on that tile will negate any such penalty

Option (2): is to make it like galleys, where non-exploratory units *cannot* enter a desert, tundra or jungle tiles *unless* said tile falls within your culture borders and/or the culture borders of someone you have Open Borders with and/or unless you have a promotion that specifically allows those units to enter these tiles.

I'd lean towards option 1 myself, but option 2 also has a lot to recommend it. Given how slowly the cultural acquisition of jungles & deserts is meant to be in CivV, then a combination of option 2 & CivV's culture system would make scouts & explorers very important into the later eras of the game-especially if they also get bonuses when encountering City-States & Ruins.

Aussie.

 

[Aussie_Lurker]

Also, as to supply, I tend to agree with Ahriman (see, we do agree on some things ). I think a simple system of supply could be implemented, which simply says that non-exploratory units cannot heal/reinforce if they're out of supply-where supply is defined as being a certain number of tiles away from your borders. Obviously this can be extended by building forts, which act as de-facto borders for supply purposes (though, as an option, said forts might need to be connected to your empire to count as being a border). Obviously so-called "special ops" units could ignore such supply penalties & having certain units adjacent could also cancel out the "out-of-supply" penalty.
Another option might also involve things like applying the Culture Conquest mod systems in CivV, where defeating an enemy allowed you to extend your culture-temporarily-into tiles within their territory. Anyway, just spit-balling right now .

Aussie.

 

[qwerty25]

As I've said before, there are a couple of solutions I can think of which you could apply without it being arbitrary.

Option (2): is to make it like galleys, where non-exploratory units *cannot* enter a desert, tundra or jungle tiles *unless* said tile falls within your culture borders and/or the culture borders of someone you have Open Borders with and/or unless you have a promotion that specifically allows those units to enter these tiles.

Aussie.

How do you invade someone if a bunch of jungle is blocking the only way there then????

 

[KrikkitTwo]

How do you invade someone if a bunch of jungle is blocking the only way there then????

1. You Don't
or
2. By boat


I think solid borders (for bad terrain) are best. (although I like the idea of the "edge" promotion)


For scouts, no healing Could be a limit if there are barbarians/animals

Perhaps a very slow attrition (1-5 hp/turn) might work.

Actually might be the best ~10 hp per turn lost+no healing.

Scouts (early ones) would be 'suicide' units. You normally send them off until they die. (and they can make it ~10 turns away before dying)

Normal units would have a little 'flag' if they were at 50 hp or less and out of range (saying "get back into range or unit will die")

Later game "explorers" would be able to heal/have reduced "attrition" from being out of territory.

 

[Ahriman]

I would assume that terrain restrictions would be overcome for all units by an early modern tech.

 

[bisonbison]

I'm sure I'm missing some options, but to make exploration last longer you can:

1. Make exploration more expensive (raise support cost by distance)
- simple, may lead to players not knowing why their gold is low

2. Make exploration riskier (more barbs, more wild animals, health or healing penalties, bad random events more likely for distant units)
- simple, but I'd be more likely to support bad random events and aggressive city states than just more random spawning barbs

3. Make exploration slower (higher terrain movement costs)
- simple, but makes all movement for all reasons slower

4. Make some terrain inaccessible (mountains blocked for all units always, jungles impassable until iron working, deserts impassable until compass, ocean impassable until optics)
- simple, extends an existing game mechanic

5. Limit movement distance (units stop X tiles from friendly border)
- arbitrary "why can't I enter that grassland" effect

6. Limit exploration to certain units (only military/dedicated scout units can dispel black fog)
- makes sense for sea units where there are often no barbs to stop them

7. Make exploration temporary (each turn any fogged tile has an x% chance of switching to show the wrong terrain type - switching stops with paper/map-making tech)
- If this was an option, I would play with this on all the time.

8. Limit map-trading (only between defensive allies, can only trade info on tiles within your borders)
- may be frustrating

 

[Craxymaxy]

I think option 4 is the best in combination with option 1

Also having option 7 as an optional mechanic would be nice

 

[chongli]

Exploration is one major area where SMAC has a huge advantage over Civ. There are just so many interesting terrain features, points of interest and other neat things to find in a game of SMAC. By comparison, Civ's generic landscape is downright boring.

 

[Tantor]

Because the invisible line in the sand is arbitrary; the no-galleys-in-oceans is based on a logical in-game differentiation.

I would, for example, have no problem with preventing non-recon units from entering jungle tiles.

Maybe this is another avenue for change; have exploration limited by terrain. Non-exploration units can't enter jungle, desert or polar tiles without a particular promotion, or without the presence of a road.
This feels much more natural to me than arbitrary distance limits, and allows jungles and deserts to be actual barriers, as they were in real life.

The obvious solution for workboats to me is to make workboats have a sight range of zero, so they cannot reveal black tiles.

Thnx for the answer, I see your point and I agree with you on your suggestion.

 

[Tantor]

I'm sure I'm missing some options, but to make exploration last longer you can:

1. Make exploration more expensive (raise support cost by distance)
- simple, may lead to players not knowing why their gold is low

2. Make exploration riskier (more barbs, more wild animals, health or healing penalties, bad random events more likely for distant units)
- simple, but I'd be more likely to support bad random events and aggressive city states than just more random spawning barbs

3. Make exploration slower (higher terrain movement costs)
- simple, but makes all movement for all reasons slower

4. Make some terrain inaccessible (mountains blocked for all units always, jungles impassable until iron working, deserts impassable until compass, ocean impassable until optics)
- simple, extends an existing game mechanic

5. Limit movement distance (units stop X tiles from friendly border)
- arbitrary "why can't I enter that grassland" effect

6. Limit exploration to certain units (only military/dedicated scout units can dispel black fog)
- makes sense for sea units where there are often no barbs to stop them

7. Make exploration temporary (each turn any fogged tile has an x% chance of switching to show the wrong terrain type - switching stops with paper/map-making tech)
- If this was an option, I would play with this on all the time.

8. Limit map-trading (only between defensive allies, can only trade info on tiles within your borders)
- may be frustrating

I think tou`re summing up the suggestions in this thread in a nice way. I believe some of them should find their way into the final game.

 

[Tantor]

Also, as to supply, I tend to agree with Ahriman (see, we do agree on some things ). I think a simple system of supply could be implemented, which simply says that non-exploratory units cannot heal/reinforce if they're out of supply-where supply is defined as being a certain number of tiles away from your borders. Obviously this can be extended by building forts, which act as de-facto borders for supply purposes (though, as an option, said forts might need to be connected to your empire to count as being a border). Obviously so-called "special ops" units could ignore such supply penalties & having certain units adjacent could also cancel out the "out-of-supply" penalty.
Another option might also involve things like applying the Culture Conquest mod systems in CivV, where defeating an enemy allowed you to extend your culture-temporarily-into tiles within their territory. Anyway, just spit-balling right now .

Aussie.

Making forts more important as a source of supply/de facto border makes them more important when yoy try to claim a territory, it also gives you a supply line you need to protect and a new tactical option in war. Units like paratroopers, spies, conquistadors or other "raiders" /special ops can be used to attack an enemy line of supply.

 

[Trias]

As I've said before, there are a couple of solutions I can think of which you could apply without it being arbitrary.

Option (1): is to have a high movement penalty associated with non-roaded deserts, tundras & jungles (& possibly forests?) that only scouts & explorers can ignore (or units with the appropriate terrain-specific promotion). The question is whether this penalty should apply at all times, or just outside cultural borders. Obviously roads on that tile will negate any such penalty

The problem with such an option is that in civ units can always move at least one tile. Even if the movement cost of a desert is ten, a warrior would still move one desert tile per turn. Of course, that mechanic could be changed as well, but it may lead to other problems.

 

[Ahriman]

I think people need to remember to not mess up the main game (with things like major terrain cost changes, or barring units from entering too many tile types, or ) in order to "fix" a relatively minor problem.

We don't want a situation where for example the mongols are unable to invade Europe (or France invade Russia) because its "out of range", or where the Mayans get stuck and can't move anywhere because of jungle, or the Arabs because of desert.

A lot of these idea have huge potential for unintended consequences.

 

[Craxymaxy]

I think making deserts impassable until optics couldn't hurt anything, I would suggest that workers would be able to go anywhere within their cultural borders and build roads though

 

[Ahriman]

I think making deserts impassable until optics couldn't hurt anything, I would suggest that workers would be able to go anywhere within their cultural borders and build roads though

Imagine:
You start on an hour-glass shaped island, with a line of desert tiles across the waist. You are trapped in a tiny amount of space and can't expand, and so lose the game.

You are Egypt, and start on a bunch of fertile flood plains, surrounded by desert. You are unable to expand at all, and cross the desert to reach Palestine or Arabia and so lose the game.

You are Mongolia. You are unable to invade China because they are protected by the Gobi desert.

You are Arabia. You start at Mecca, but are unable to expand because you are separated from Palestine by the Arabian desert.

You are Persia. You are unable to invade Bablyon because of the desert between you and them.

* * *

Building roads within culture doesn't really help, because:
a) Culture will expand slowly, it still doesn't help you expand outside your culture to found new cities
b) We know that cultural expansion favors "good" terrain types as opposed to "bad" types like desert, so it will take a long time for desert tiles to be covered
c) We know they're trying to minimize road coverage.

 

[Craxymaxy]

everyone of those places is coastal and can easily circumnavigate the deserts

Also since you can build roads on desert tiles a Civ that is truly trapped would just have to build a road over the desert.

not to mention a simple algorithm could solve that problem, i'm sure that when making mountains impassable was raised as a game mechanic someone said "what about Spain? they won't be able to leave Iberia because of the Pyrenees"

 

[Craxymaxy]

making road building outside of culture would make it more practical that is true