Export Luxes... without exporting luxes.

[Tasslehoff]

Ok, this bug occurred recently in my first Emperor game. It requires very exact circumstances, but has the potential to be an exploit.

In the scenario, the Ottomans and the Japanese had settled weirdly near a lake, so that an Ottoman city was disconnected from the capitol except through a roaded chokepoint under Japanese control. This Ottoman city was the only city which I could reach, and trade with. However, the Japanese and the Ottomans had a ROP, so I was allowed to trade luxes to that city, which would trade via the road to the capitol.

However, I was at war with the Japanese, and, in an attempt to make the fight easier, I went to the Ottomans. The deal was an alliance vs. the Japanese for Silks and Dyes on my part.

The Ottomans accepted, and then the bug appeared. Since the Ottomans were now at war with the Japanese, they could no longer have an ROP, and the city I was connected to was no longer connected to the capitol. So the trade route should have no longer existed the second the deal was made, making the deal impossible. How's Civ gonna get around this one?

I didn't realize the paradox at the time, but that turn, I checked my trade screen, hoping to get some horsies from Portugal, and saw this:

I'm not trading the Silks+Dyes to the Ottomans anymore, because I can't! I could even trade the same Silks and Dyes to someone like the Romans, if I wished.

Now, this seems fairly normal. The deal will just get cancelled after a turn, due to the lack of trade routes, killing my rep. Right? I can no longer ship the Silks and Dyes, so the trade should stop. Right? Wrong. Three turns later, negotiations with the Ottomans still tell me I'm shipping them luxes, the deal is unbroken, and the Ottomans are happy with me.

It even says that the Ottomans are lacking the luxes that I'm "trading" with them! This bug could be exploited easily, as I could end up trading one icon of Silks to two different people!

 

[vmxa]

The moral of the story is that you are taking a risk to your rep by traing with anyone that could have the trade route cut off by war.

Anyway I would be very reticent to give two lux to anyone that was not very weak.

 

[Optional]

No, the point is that the trade route isn't there to start with, the deal itself makes the trade route impossible. It shouldn't be possible to make this deal. It shows what kind of problems developers are facing in the process of creating a game like civ. It surprises me that apparently no-one has run into this before.
I find it great that Tasslehoff has documented this so well, and posted it here.

 

[PaperBeetle]

I had a similar situation in COTM 28...

I bought spices in as part of a war deal, the trade route was cut, and I had to buy the same spices the next turn (I got Lighthouse that interturn, which was what re-opened the trade route). But somehow I was still paying for the first shipment of spices, even though I wasn't actually recieving it. This was rather annoying, as in fact that only reason I put the spices in the war deal in the first place was in order that the deal (and my payment) would be annulled, i.e. I wanted Babylon's help for free.

 

[Tasslehoff]

@PaperBeetle: If it had canceled the spice trade because of the lack of trade routes, it would also have canceled the alliance, and hit your rep.

That's a strange picture, though. You should put it in the "Interesting Screenshots" thread.

@vmxa: Actually, the moral of the story is that theres a creepy glitch when a war cuts off a trade route immediately, and it can be exploited.

 

[PaperBeetle]

Sure but it was an archipelago game, so I wasn't worried about my rep; I don't think either of these guys ever met anyone else. If I had known the first deal wasn't going to get broken, I would have given Ham my only furs for the alliance, cut them off myself, and then rehooked them for my domestic use.

 

[CommandoBob]

This could explain the situation:

The deal, when made, was valid, and so it was done.

The trade route to the capitol was cut, but you could still connect to a non-capitol city.

I'm guessing that the game sees this as you are sending goods to that city and they are being stockpiled until the trade route is reconnected. It expects you to honor that obligation as best you can.

So your trade rep might still be intact.

 

[Tasslehoff]

It is intact, but the thing is, I'm not actually sending the luxes to the city. I can still send the luxes to anybody else.

 

[anaxagoras]

It is intact, but the thing is, I'm not actually sending the luxes to the city. I can still send the luxes to anybody else.

I don't think it is odd that your reputation is intact. You didn't cut the trade route, your trading partner did - immediately, when he declared war. If your trading partner cuts the route, it doesn't hurt your rep.

The weird thing is that the Ottomans still show you as trading them the luxes. If the game engine is still tracking that, I wonder what would really happen if you completed a trade to send those luxes somewhere else. I know you've looked at the trading screen, but did you actually try completing a second or third trade? It may work just fine, of course, I just wouldn't necessarily trust it.

 

[D0NIMATRIX]

Investigate an Ottoman city and see if they're getting the luxes.

 

[Rodrig0]

I don't think it is odd that your reputation is intact. You didn't cut the trade route, your trading partner did - immediately, when he declared war. If your trading partner cuts the route, it doesn't hurt your rep...

How is that? I've seen that my rep is hit all the time, even for things that have absolutely nothing to do with me. Even barbarian ships blocking THEIR harbors will cut the deal and break my rep. The only thing that doesn't hurt rep is when it is THEM that declare war TO YOU.

What I woukd expect is: You make an alliance and offer lux as part of the deal. They accept and declare war, but by doing this the trade route to you is cut, you are lo longer able to send luxes, so the deal is broken before the 20 turns and your rep is hit. That's what I would expect because that's what's happened to me ALL the time. Could this be a C3C issue, or rather improvement? It used to happen back in Vanilla and PtW. Now in COnquest I always avoid deals that are not 100% safe, so it has never happened to me in Conquest

 

[anaxagoras]

How is that? I've seen that my rep is hit all the time, even for things that have absolutely nothing to do with me.

My understanding is that if you or a third party disrupts a trade route, that is deemed your fault, and you take a rep hit. However, if the Civ you are trading to disrupts the route (typically, by DoW on you), then you don't take a hit.

But this is a pretty unique case. Nothing is actually disrupting the trade route you have to the Ottoman empire. You can DoW the Japanese and the trade is still valid, since your trade route doesn't depend on Japanese good will. But the Ottoman DoW kills the route to their own capital, so they broke the trade and your reputation is still intact.

Since the AI can't correctly anticipate this situation, clearly this is an exploit. It could have major implications in a game where this is possible, but the vast majority of games won't have this odd geographical arrangement.

What an interesting find.