Extra card wonders.

[Tech Osen]

I conquered a city with Alhambra but didn't get the free card. Is this a bug or intended?

 

[Siptah]

I'm not sure if it is intended or not. But it is always this way. If you conquer an extra card wonder, you won't get the extra card. Some wonders give their bonus if you conquer it (the pyramids and the colossus for example) some others don't.

 

[elitetroops]

The patch notes from the fall patch says:

"Fixed an issue with wonders when transferring city ownership – conquering a city with a wonder would not track that wonder, and could lead to problems when attempting to use Gustave Eiffel."

When I read the first part I thought it meant this issue was now fixed. Then I read the second part about Gustave Eiffel and I'm totally confused. Anyone knows if this issue is fixed in the patch or not? And why would Gustave Eiffel care about cities changing owners? He only builds wonders and unfinished wonders won't change owners in any case.

 

[AmtrakQuebec]

The patch notes from the fall patch says:

"Fixed an issue with wonders when transferring city ownership – conquering a city with a wonder would not track that wonder, and could lead to problems when attempting to use Gustave Eiffel."

When I read the first part I thought it meant this issue was now fixed. Then I read the second part about Gustave Eiffel and I'm totally confused. Anyone knows if this issue is fixed in the patch or not? And why would Gustave Eiffel care about cities changing owners? He only builds wonders and unfinished wonders won't change owners in any case.

The way I read that was they fixed the problem... I haven't been able to test it yet though. Yeah, that Gustave Effel reference just seemed like complete obfuscation to me too... meh. I know it was definitely an issue with The Great Zimbabwe because during an online game one of my fellow players captured mine, and his trade actually went down lol

 

[Tech Osen]

For clarity: what happened with Alhambra was post patch.

 

[CaiusDrewart]

That's too bad, I was hoping the patch had fixed this. Oh well.

They should definitely change it so that if you conquer a wonder like that, you get the benefit! Taking over a powerful wonder should be a really exciting moment.

 

[omniclast]

I had the same thing happen pre-patch when I captured the Forbidden City. I also thought this was what they were referring to with that line in the patch. I guess not.

If you haven't already, I recommend posting your save to the Bug Reports forum. Hopefully they will deal with it in the next patch.

 

[Ryika]

Well, it's not a bug, that's how wonders worked in Civ V (and BE) as well. Any effect that is granted the moment a wonder is finished and then "forgotten" by the game will not be reallocated when the wonder is conquered.

I do agree it would be more interesting if they did though.

 

[smartcanuck1988]

I guess the question is, when you lose a city with one of these wonders, do you lose the extra policy slot? If you do lose it, and the conqueror does not gain it, then it is a bug in my mind. If you keep it, and the conqueror doesn't get an extra slot, then it sounds like it's being treated similar to how let's say the free Trader unit a Colossus gives.

 

[elitetroops]

The free policy slots are different from the free trader though. The trader is granted once, if you lose it, it's gone. The free policies are permanent effects, just like +15% growth from Hanging Gardens. I think permanent effects should transfer with the ownership of the wonder.

 

[smartcanuck1988]

The free policy slots are different from the free trader though. The trader is granted once, if you lose it, it's gone. The free policies are permanent effects, just like +15% growth from Hanging Gardens. I think permanent effects should transfer with the ownership of the wonder.

That's what I mean. I agree with that interpretation but is this how the devs designed it really?

 

[Tech Osen]

Other question: anyone ever razed a city with a wonder? Does the wonder disappear?
Which reminds me of another thing: I liberated a city state that had a wonder, think it was Petra. Some time later I got the message that one of my rivals had build it again.

 

[Ryika]

That's what I mean. I agree with that interpretation but is this how the devs designed it really?

Then compare it to free Civics or Technologies. Or even Eurekas. They're granted once, but are active for the rest of the game and can't be lost - well, with the exception of the Eurekas of technologies that haven't been finished yet of course.
It's of course much easier to remove a Policy Slot without causing weirdness than it is to remove free Technologies or Civics, but the problem with that is consistency.

Thinking about theoretical future wonders... I don't know. Free Works of Art. Would they transfer? Would they work differently because technically they're being moved around? etc.
A wonder that reveals the map... would stuff become covered in fog again?
Free Promotions for your units? Would your units lose them?

Again, in terms of consistency the system of things not transferring makes a lot of sense. "If it's a yield or a reoccurring effect it transfers, if it's a one-time boost it sticks with whoever built it." is easy to understand and easy to implement for nearly any effect.

So while I still think it would be more interesting those are the problems that would need to be solved.

 

[Takfloyd]

Wonders are really poorly handled in this game in general.

Not only are their effects usually not worth it, but once they're built they go unreferenced for the rest of the game, so it's easy to forget you even built them. Their effects do not display anywhere - you have to manually look them up in the Civilopedia if you don't remember them - especially likely to happen when you conquer an enemy wonder, that is if you even notice it's there since you get no notification. Also, wonder movies are disabled in multiplayer with no way to enable them, which is disappointing since a lot of us play with friends without turn timers and don't mind the extra time to watch them.

 

[smartcanuck1988]

Then compare it to free Civics or Technologies. Or even Eurekas. They're granted once, but are active for the rest of the game and can't be lost - well, with the exception of the Eurekas of technologies that haven't been finished yet of course.

It's the same thing really in my eyes, programmatically. Either a piece of code is triggered when the wonder is finished, and there will never be a call to that piece of code again (let's call this "Immediate Effect"), or there is a check every turn on who owns each wonder to give the associated bonus (let's call it "Ongoing Effect"). The free Trader is an example of an Immediate Effect, and the additional trade slot is an example of an Ongoing Effect, both coming from the same wonder.

Immediate effects will not happen again when the wonder changes ownership, and it suggests that the extra policy slot falls into that category. If so, it should also mean that the previous owner retained the benefit. If this is not happening with the extra policy slots, it means there is a problem and it's not the intention of the devs.

I have not lost a Forbidden Palace or a similar wonder to know what happens.

 

[elitetroops]

Thinking about theoretical future wonders... I don't know. Free Works of Art. Would they transfer? Would they work differently because technically they're being moved around? etc.
A wonder that reveals the map... would stuff become covered in fog again?
Free Promotions for your units? Would your units lose them?

Are the free works of art always located in the wonder? If yes, then they transfer, if no, then not.

Revealing map is a one time event, it happens when you build the wonder. Same with granting free promotions. I don't see any problem with any of these.

I agree with "If it's a yield or a reoccurring effect it transfers, if it's a one-time boost it sticks with whoever built it." Maybe someone at Firaxis considers granting a free policy slot as a one-time boost instead of as a permanent effect...

 

[Ryika]

Are the free works of art always located in the wonder? If yes, then they transfer, if no, then not.

So conquering a wonder that grants three works of art and does nothing else would still be worthless after conquering?

Revealing map is a one time event, it happens when you build the wonder. Same with granting free promotions. I don't see any problem with any of these.

Granting a free Policy Slot is also a one-time event, it happens when you build the wonder, and just as all tiles stay revealed for the rest of the game the extra Policy Slot is maintained for the rest of the game.

I agree with "If it's a yield or a reoccurring effect it transfers, if it's a one-time boost it sticks with whoever built it." Maybe someone at Firaxis considers granting a free policy slot as a one-time boost instead of as a permanent effect...

Yes, it's a one-time effect, what else would it be? The effect is "Number of Policy Slots is permanently increased by 1.", an effect that triggers the moment the wonder is done and is then "forgotten". You don't get an extra Slot every 10 turns or anything like that.

Your confusion seems to stem from the fact that the policy slot itself has a permanent benefit, but that's true for any one-time effect. A free worker is a one-time benefit that then translates into permanent bonuses.

If the implementation were: "Wonder grants a free great person -> great person has to move to city center where it grants you an extra policy slot" you'd not even be surprised by the fact that the effect does not transfer, this is the exact same thing, just without the middle-man.

 

[KrikkitTwo]

Except

So conquering a wonder that grants three works of art and does nothing else would still be worthless after conquering?


Granting a free Policy Slot is also a one-time event, it happens when you build the wonder, and just as all tiles stay revealed for the rest of the game the extra Policy Slot is maintained for the rest of the game.


Yes, it's a one-time effect, what else would it be? The effect is "Number of Policy Slots is permanently increased by 1.", an effect that triggers the moment the wonder is done and is then "forgotten". You don't get an extra Slot every 10 turns or anything like that.

Your confusion seems to stem from the fact that the policy slot itself has a permanent benefit, but that's true for any one-time effect. A free worker is a one-time benefit that then translates into permanent bonuses.

If the implementation were: "Wonder grants a free great person -> great person has to move to city center where it grants you an extra policy slot" you'd not even be surprised by the fact that the effect does not transfer, this is the exact same thing, just without the middle-man.

Policy slots are normally ongoing effects though. (Granted by governments)

 

[Cymsdale]

I see no good reason the person who lost the wonder shouldn't lose the extra slot and the one who captured it gains it.

 

[Ryika]

Except

Policy slots are normally ongoing effects though. (Granted by governments)

That's not an ongoing effect either, it's a permanent effect inherent in a specific government. You can change the government and swap that permanent effect with the permanent effect of another government, but that doesn't make it an ongoing effect.

An ongoing effect is an effect that does continue to change something over time, in terms of TBS "per Turn" or "per X turns". "Grants a free Worker in the city this wonder is built every 5 turns" would be an ongoing effect; "grants 2 workers when completed" however is a permanent effect, just as "grants a bonus policy slot" is a permanent effect, it's a permanent +1 in the database. "Grants a free Policy Slot every 5 turns." would be an ongoing effect, however, Policy Slots granted would still be permanent effects that wouldn't change ownership; Policy Slots that are generated after the wonder has changed ownership would of course go to the new owner and remain there permanently.

But again, in terms of gameplay I'm all for changing how the system works, these consistency problems however need to be solved first (and I can't really think of a good solution atm), or the whole system becomes a mess.