Extra/Conditional Unique Units

[Michael Vick]

Yeah, I saw the conditional UUs, sry for not answering before.

It's a really great idea, and I absolutely like it, but I can't promise we will include them (or if we do, when)
It depends on how much time will have on adding extra features.

Can you make a new thread for this, where collecting all the better ideas regarding this? For every civ, every possible conditional UUs
It will be much easier to keep track of it this way

Discussion:

I meant to ask if it was possible to code region specific UUs? Like if England conquered Scotland and then could build a special highlander unit (But only in cities in the Scotland
region)? They would basically be like extra UUs for each civ but with a few differences. There would be a limit on how many you could build (like missionary limit) in order to avoid ignoring the original unit that it replaces. My intention is to see, say, a united Great Britain field a stack of 10 line infantry and 2 Highlanders. The highlanders would have a rough terrain combat bonus or something, making them slightly superior to ordinary line infantry, but only a few can built.

I think it could relativly easy be done in the way you build your vassals UU. You build a normal unit and upon creation it is replaced with a special UU if the requirements are met. But adding all the units requires alot of work on its own. New graphics, xml, balancing..

Nevertheless i like your idea.

Edead used the mercenary system to implement a similar system.

This idea is simply awesome. I don't know how to make it happen, but the Varangian Guard needs to be available for Justinian. Purple berserkir must wind up in this game. I'm not sure what their bonus would be (they served primarily as body guards, but also functioned as the ace up the sleeve as reserve warriors only unleased in clutch situations) - Drill, Garrison, or heavy defensive bonuses would probably work. Maybe Justinian would need a city north of the Black Sea in order to build them?

The Gustavan military of Sweden relied on the Hakkapeliitta of Finland, which could be Pistolier replacements only available in Finnish cities. They were known for their speed in battle and were used for scouting - giving the already lethal pistolier a 4th movement point would be horribly unbalanced, so maybe free mobility promotions would make them slightly more dangerous (hills mean nothing to them), without making them stronger. The Russian hills and forests would be much easier to tear through with these. They could also be utilised as lethal forward light field cavalry this way without hills/forests slowing them down (start the turn on the same tile as infantry/siegecraft, attack 2 tiles forward, fall one tile back; infantry advances one tile forward & cavalry finishes turn on same tile as infantry).

Conditional UUs would be awesome, and I'm sure each civ could gain at least one extra unique unit - the Pecheneg/Kipchak horsemen could be employed by the Byzantines to attack Bulgaria while Bulgaria employs the Cuman horsemen to attack the Byz (these are already sort of implemented by barb horsemen, but I think the concept could work). Another angle to approach this from is as a great way to implement minor civs that can't otherwise be implemented in the game, and make them available to any civ to hold a given province - Mamluk soldiers could be trained in Egypt by any nation holding ground there, finally providing Mamluk presence and hopefully quelling debates about Mamluk representation in the game. Highlanders could be built by anyone holding Scotland (Spanish- or French-backed highlanders causing trouble for Protestant England? Awesome.). This might make less historical sense, but be easier to code. If possible to code without much difficulty, an additional requirement could be added to keep universal UUs somewhat historical (IE Mamluks require Islam as state religion and/or present in the city, so only Arabia, Ottos or Indies build them on their own, and no Mamluks come from Byzantine Alexandria . . . unless of course an alt-history loving Islamic Euro human is at the helm).

I don't think this would break game balance too greatly, as most of the UUs wouldn't be well utilised by the AI - with the Otto's unit spam, what're a few more? English shipping Scots to the Continent? Not likely. Russia is too backwards to ever be a real threat to the human, Cossacks or not. The human is the only one who would enjoy the feature, and the human is the only one who counts, really.

I'm sure it would be a pain to code, but this kind of idea would make a stellar addition to an already stellar mod.

 

[Michael Vick]

Suggested UU's:

England comes into possession of Scotland, now England (Britain) can recruit Scottish Highlanders. They would replace line infantry, however only around three or four would be allowed. Rough terrain combat bonus?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_watch
Art: http://forums.civfanatics.com/downloads.php?do=file&id=14480

France comes into possession of Switzerland, now France can recruit swiss pikemen (They made up the bulk of their army up until the 17th century). Or maybe a single Swiss Guard unit, that receives an enormous bonus for city defense?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swiss_pikemen
Art: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=359003

Spain comes into possession of Wallonia (Southern Belgium, or anywhere in Belgium for the purposes of this mod). Now Spain can raise Walloon infantry in Brussels.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walloon_Guards
Art: http://forums.civfanatics.com/downloads/nap units 2_03K.jpg Blue rifleman, bearskin cap. (The grenadier-looking one)

Austria comes into possession of Hungary. Now Austria can train Hungarian Huszars or tall, slightly stronger Hungarian Grenadiers.
And/Or Austria comes into possession of Dalmatian city, Austria can now field Croatian Pandurs, skirmishers specialized in operations behind enemy lines. 2 or 3, will replace line infantry, commando promotion or movement after attack, large penalty on defense.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hungari...dieval_Hungary Hussar Art: http://forums.civfanatics.com/downloads.php?do=file&id=15308
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pandours

Ottomans get a new default UU, the Sipahi, replacing the knight or armored lancer. The Ottomans will still have the Janissary as a unique unit, but they must be recruited from conquered Christian populations in the Balkans as in real life, not from Anatolia. Or the Sipahis could be scratched, Janissaries reincorporated, and Mameluke calvary units made available in Egypt? Or Sipahis, Janissaries, AND Mamelukes?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sipahi Mamluk Art: http://forums.civfanatics.com/downloads.php?do=file&id=15641
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Janissary Sipahi Art: http://forums.civfanatics.com/downloads.php?do=file&id=14894

Russia will undergo a similar change, the Streltsy replacing the musketman, and Cossacks needing to be recruited from the territory of Kievan Rus.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cossack Cossacks + Strelets Art: http://forums.civfanatics.com/downloads/piccossacksunits1_Dz2.jpg
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Streltsy

Byzantium gains a city on the North Coast of the Black Sea. Byzantium can now train the Varangian Guard. Replaces swordsman, axeman?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Varangian_guard#Varangian_Guard

Norse come into possession of city in Britain, Norse can train Huskarls. Replace swordsmen/longswordsmen, Bonus to melee combat.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Huskarl
Art: http://forums.civfanatics.com/downloads.php?do=file&id=12504 (6th picture from the top, Danish great axe)

Sweden gains city in Finland, Sweden can train Hakkapeliitta. Replace pistolier, high movement. (Sweden should then get a horse resource in Finland)
Replaces Pistolier.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hakkapeliitta

A civ comes into possession of Portugal (including Portugal) can recruit Caçadores (Historically as did Britain and Portugal, Spain to a lesser extent). Caçadores replace line infantry, with extra first strikes, and penalty on defense. (They are basically skirmisher infantry.)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caçadores

Italian civ (Or maybe any civ) that controls a city in Italy can field Condottieri, the major fighting forces of all wars between the Italian city states. Replace macemen or guisarmes or pikemen, higher strength, high train limit, but high maintenance and penalty against Tercios, Swiss pikemen, and Lansknechts?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Condottieri
Art: http://forums.civfanatics.com/downloads.php?do=file&id=8071

Art: http://forums.civfanatics.com/downlo...=file&id=14630

Al-Andalus comes into possession of Marrakesh, or any city in the Marrakech or Morocco regions (Note that Tangier is excluded, so Al-Andalus starts without such a city). Now they will be able to recruit Tuareg or Sudanese soldiers from the Muslim populations of the Sahara. They would replace spearmen or guisarmes and have open terrain combat bonuses, suitable for use against Spanish and Portuguese cavalry in the open areas of central Iberia.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tuareg
They would have black skin and wear blue, looking exactly like the men in blue pictured here.
Art: http://forums.civfanatics.com/downlo...=file&id=15643 (I got very, very lucky)

We don't have art for the Varangian Guard, or the Finnish Hakkapeliitta.

 

[AbsintheRed]

Great! Thanks for making the thread
Please keep this second post updated with the new ideas

 

[Wessel V1]

That's quite similar to Kael's assimilation mod isn't it? Maybe we could borrow the code or parts of it. I mean, Byzantine Great Bombards aren't such a great idea. The difficulty would be how to decide which civ 'destroyed' a collapsed civ (because he doesn't take the last remaining city), but I think that could be solved by something like:

If a civ has conquered a city of the collapsing civ in the last 5 turns and is at war with that civ then he gets the unit. With the large stacks that are usually in the cities that should not be easily exploitable.

 

[AbsintheRed]

In a way it is similar, but these are conditional UUs
If a civ gets a specific territory (England conquers Scotland), then can train new special UUs from that area (highlanders)
This has nothing to do with the other civs "normal" UUs - like you said with Byzantium having Great Bombards...

 

[3Miro]

I can probably code this in C++, but I am not sure it would really contribute to the mod. You end up having a whole bunch of units that aren't necessarily balanced against each other.

I can add tags to the units xml, so that you can only build the unit if you have conquered a specific province (change canBuild() function). Then you get units in the tech three "Highlander Swordsman", requires conquest of Scotland to build.

But again, I am not sure this would really contribute anything.

 

[AbsintheRed]

I can probably code this in C++, but I am not sure it would really contribute to the mod. You end up having a whole bunch of units that aren't necessarily balanced against each other.

I can add tags to the units xml, so that you can only build the unit if you have conquered a specific province (change canBuild() function). Then you get units in the tech three "Highlander Swordsman", requires conquest of Scotland to build.

But again, I am not sure this would really contribute anything.

Yes you are right, they don't really contribute directly to the mod
It is mostly aesthetics, for some additional gameplay experience to the player.
These UUs could be only slightly stronger than the units they replace, so balance won't be a problem
Maybe a free promotion or something like that
Think of it as additional art if you are succesful and on the right track with your civ, as a bonus

Another idea would be, to implement these as conditional mercenaries instead of conditional UUs

 

[3Miro]

Yes you are right, they don't really contribute directly to the mod
It is mostly aesthetics, for some additional gameplay experience to the player.
These UUs could be only slightly stronger than the units they replace, so balance won't be a problem
Maybe a free promotion or something like that
Think of it as additional art if you are succesful and on the right track with your civ, as a bonus

Another idea would be, to implement these as conditional mercenaries instead of conditional UUs

Conditional mercs is the only type that I would say makes sense. It shouldn't be hard to code.

If you have a city in a province in a specific time period, then you get a chance to hire a specific unit.

 

[Daffy]

had already posted that idea in a different thread

I like the idea but it also triggered an idea
might even be easier to implement and would solve 2 things at once
Mercenaries still don't work properly do they? (RFC inherent issue?)
(Maybe I just don't know how but I usually hire a few mercs and then the hire window remains empty)

Maybe this UU idea could be implemented as a Mercenary training option if you own a city(or all cities) in that province/area (limited amount of units per turn(s))
e.g.
Say be able to hire 1 Genoese Crossbowman every 5 turns if you own Genoa
2 Genoese Crossbowmen every 5 turns if you own Genoa and Milan etc.
I'd favor a quick respawn, it can be expensive instead and capped.

just for the sake of the idea about the condition to the 'hiring' part.
I liked it

 

[Caliom]

I can probably code this in C++, but I am not sure it would really contribute to the mod. You end up having a whole bunch of units that aren't necessarily balanced against each other.

I think it would contribute to the mod because flavor is a big part of the mod. It would also mean more diversity between units, not only in graphics but also in stats. I would appreciate that.

I don't know how these additional units will affect performance, but it would make no difference if you implement them as UUs or mercenaries.

The thing with mercenaries is, that they cost gold instead of hammers, the AI is not fully "aware" of them, and they appear in the capitol and not in the province they are tied to.

I would like to see unique units only appear in the provinces they are tied to, by either making them only buildable in cities in that province or appear there if hired.

 

[3Miro]

I think it would contribute to the mod because flavor is a big part of the mod. It would also mean more diversity between units, not only in graphics but also in stats. I would appreciate that.

I don't know how these additional units will affect performance, but it would make no difference if you implement them as UUs or mercenaries.

The thing with mercenaries is, that they cost gold instead of hammers, the AI is not fully "aware" of them, and they appear in the capitol and not in the province they are tied to.

I would like to see unique units only appear in the provinces they are tied to, by either making them only buildable in cities in that province or appear there if hired.

Merc code is something I have not messed with yet. The next thing that I will do it figure out that code and then I should be able to do a lot more with it. It does need an overhaul anyway.

 

[merijn_v1]

I prefer conditional mercs (as in SoI) over conditional UUs.

 

[civ_king]

How about the Ottomans get better horsemen for controlling Crimea, I don't know what to call it though. Historically Crimea provided very skilled horsemen to the Ottomans. Perhaps a tweaked keshik would be appropriate.

 

[Michael Vick]

How about the Ottomans get better horsemen for controlling Crimea, I don't know what to call it though. Historically Crimea provided very skilled horsemen to the Ottomans. Perhaps a tweaked keshik would be appropriate.

Wether they are conditional built UUs, or conditional mercs, we also need to decide if each civ should only get one to be fair to civs like Lithuania, or civs like the Ottoman empire will have possibly 2, 3, or 4. I would support that because the amount of trainable units can always be kept to a minimum. In the case of the Ottomans, however, they should probably get plenty of Janissaries. A few for each Balkan region.

 

[Opera]

If they are mercenaries UU, they aren't trainable and are randomly generated so I don't think they should be limited that way.

 

[AbsintheRed]

I think it would contribute to the mod because flavor is a big part of the mod. It would also mean more diversity between units, not only in graphics but also in stats. I would appreciate that.

I don't know how these additional units will affect performance, but it would make no difference if you implement them as UUs or mercenaries.

The thing with mercenaries is, that they cost gold instead of hammers, the AI is not fully "aware" of them, and they appear in the capitol and not in the province they are tied to.

I would like to see unique units only appear in the provinces they are tied to, by either making them only buildable in cities in that province or appear there if hired.

Agree with you, I would also prefer having conditional UUs over mercenaries.
With these UUs tied to fix provinces/cities, it would be more realistic as well.
Only able to train Highlanders in Scotland, Jannissaries in the Balkans, Mamluks in Egypt, etc. would add extra experience for the players

Mercenaries are not understand well by the AI, and most players also don't really use it

 

[Opera]

Well, too bad because mercenaries can be very useful

I think conditional UUs is too much of a hassle to code and that mercenaries would be easier. I also think you overstate the problem of them appearing in the capital: it's a part of balance of sorts, so you cannot rush-buy a lot of them and spawn them in the province you just conquered.

 

[AbsintheRed]

Wether they are conditional built UUs, or conditional mercs, we also need to decide if each civ should only get one to be fair to civs like Lithuania, or civs like the Ottoman empire will have possibly 2, 3, or 4. I would support that because the amount of trainable units can always be kept to a minimum. In the case of the Ottomans, however, they should probably get plenty of Janissaries. A few for each Balkan region.

As civs cannot build these in their core cities, just in their undeveloped, new cities, we don't have to limit the number of UU types
This is mostly flavor with a few units of each (expect maybe the Janissaries), you won't base your armies on these conditional UUs.
And it's also historical if we implement it this way

 

[AbsintheRed]

I also think you overstate the problem of them appearing in the capital: it's a part of balance of sorts, so you cannot rush-buy a lot of them and spawn them in the province you just conquered.

Why would you be able to get these types of mercenaries right after you conquered these territories?
After these new cities are slowly assimilated to your civ, and starts to develop, you may build these UUs there.
IMO it's more realistic than spwaning a few units in your capital

 

[Opera]

Sometimes gameplay trumps realism. Still, it's only my two cents, you and 3Miro figure this out