Extra/Conditional Unique Units

[The Turk]

Building one unit and then getting another is a bit confusing. Mercs are just straight forward.

Yes but Janissaries, Huscarls etc are not exactly "mercanaries". Although yes Swiss Pikemen and Varangian Guard are kind of like mercanaries, in reality they were still loyal to whomever was in command of them, so letting other players hire them would not fit, as they were very faction specific, and that is why this regional only unit is a very interesting idea.

 

[3Miro]

Yes but Janissaries, Huscarls etc are not exactly "mercanaries". Although yes Swiss Pikemen and Varangian Guard are kind of like mercanaries, in reality they were still loyal to whomever was in command of them, so letting other players hire them would not fit, as they were very faction specific, and that is why this regional only unit is a very interesting idea.

Janissaries are totally different. I want to change the Turkish UP to better fit those. Janissaries would not be mercenaries.

I am not sure Huscarls exactly fit the mod. They look like a what the Danish UU would be if we had a Danish civ, (the Norse/Vikings "morph" into Denmark, but they do get the Berserkers.

Mercenaries are loyal to whomever pays them, that's what makes them mercenaries. However, if you are the only one controlling a province, then you are the only one that can pay them and they only serve you (for a price).

 

[Morholt]

Huscarls were paid extremely well, it was a guaranteed way to get rich quick if you were good enough to be selected, so maybe having them as mercenaries makes some sense.
From wikipedia: "According to Saxo Grammaticus, the pay was monthly. Due to these wages, the housecarls can be seen as a sort of mercenaries..."

 

[AbsintheRed]

Noone else thinks that conditional UUs would be better, only Michael Vick and me?
It seems we are the minority on this...

I'm absolutely not against conditional mercenaries, just think UUs would add more flavor to the mod, more gameplay experience to the player.
The AI also handles training (building) units better than mercenaries
As I mentioned, IMO it's not a problem at all if it works the same as the Topkapi mechanics.
In those areas you get 50% chance to train a territory specific UU instead of the normal unit

Are you guys against adding them both?

 

[civ_king]

Noone else thinks that conditional UUs would be better, only Michael Vick and me?
It seems we are the minority on this...

I'm absolutely not against conditional mercenaries, just think UUs would add more flavor to the mod, more gameplay experience to the player.
The AI also handles training (building) units better than mercenaries
As I mentioned, IMO it's not a problem at all if it works the same as the Topkapi mechanics.
In those areas you get 50% chance to train a territory specific UU instead of the normal unit

Are you guys against adding them both?

I think conditional UUs would be cool, gives the Ottomans an incentive to conquer Crimea.

 

[Opera]

What could be made is that sometimes, when you own a province, you get a free X unit through an event, or 2 if you can afford it. Natives wanting to join the ones controlling their province.

I don't like them being "UUs" because they shouldn't be trained, IMO. Generally, culture and control of provinces is more about subjugating than mixing. One thing though -- UUs could be used if the province is independent, so that indy Edinburgh will build Highlanders and such. But for major civs (like England controlling Scotland), they have access to mercenary Highlanders and a random chance to get the event.

Thoughts?

 

[AbsintheRed]

No, we shouldn't add free units with events.
Would be extremly unbalanced

Also, in many countries, training those units was the way, and they were nothing like mercenaries
For example Hungarian soldiers in the Habsburg Empire wasn't mercenaries at all
Or even before, Serbians or Croatians in the Kingdom of Hungary were absolutely part of the royal army, not even close to mercenaries
A few sources say that even Huszars are originiated from the southern slavs

I'm sure there are many similar examples for every country:
In more cases than not, if a medieval european civ owned a territory (with foreign majority) for quite long time,
the soldiers were quite similarly recruited from those areas as their own national units.
Using them as mercenaries didn't come into play that often...

 

[Opera]

*shrugs*

In any case, I think it's more work for limited purpose and the mercenary system works quite well.

 

[AbsintheRed]

*shrugs*

Sry, didn't want to ditch your idea, but adding events like this seems very unbalanced to me

In any case, I think it's more work for limited purpose and the mercenary system works quite well.

I more or less agree with this.
Still, having them both would be much better

And it doesn't seem like it needs that much extra work
If we add conditional mercenaries, also having conditional UUs (in those same areas, with the same art) is just a next step

 

[Opera]

Sry, didn't want to ditch your idea, but adding events like this seems very unbalanced to me

Don't worry about that, it sure is somewhat unbalanced

I more or less agree with this.
Still, having them both would be much better

And it doesn't seem like it needs that much extra work
If we add conditional mercenaries, also having conditional UUs (in those same areas, with the same art) is just a next step

Well, mercenaries are python while conditional UUs - well done - would be in the DLL.

So in the end it's up to 3Miro to see if he feels like adding them or not.

 

[Michael Vick]

No, we shouldn't add free units with events.
Would be extremly unbalanced

Also, in many countries, training those units was the way, and they were nothing like mercenaries
For example Hungarian soldiers in the Habsburg Empire wasn't mercenaries at all
Or even before, Serbians or Croatians in the Kingdom of Hungary were absolutely part of the royal army, not even close to mercenaries
A few sources say that even Huszars are originiated from the southern slavs

I'm sure there are many similar examples for every country:
In more cases than not, if a medieval european civ owned a territory (with foreign majority) for quite long time,
the soldiers were quite similarly recruited from those areas as their own national units.
Using them as mercenaries didn't come into play that often...

Most players don't use mercenaries. If a new player didn't read about these units somewhere, they likely wouldn't know they existed after the first game of RFC Europe (maybe slightly confused after spotting a single British highlander or two). This is also true because the AI wouldn't use them as much. Most of the push for using the mercenary system comes from the fact that it is easier. I'm not the one coding, so I can't push too hard for the buildable conditional UUs, but that's what I would prefer. I like Caliom's idea. From what I've read here, I think I understand that these units can be coded to be built in certain regions and not replace their equivalent unit, but they would become their own unit class? Entirely new unit classes would mean having to code their affiliations with techs, resources, bonuses/penalties against other units... This will then pose a problem for the AI in evaluation of said techs, this information can be hidden from the AI?? But this would still result in the AI building these units, correct?

A few of these units fit into the mercenary category, but most of them don't, I think, and the mod would be better off without units like Cossacks or Hungarian Hussars being hired through the mercenary button. If, however, we do settle for mercenaries, I think there are ways to make it more impact-ful and pleasant for the player, like a military advisor notification that let's you know that there are Walloon regiments available for training in Belgium and that you should probably have a look.

I've updated the second post. Huskarls have been noted, as well Pandurs as another idea for the Austrians, also Condottieri (mercenaries!!! ) for Venice, Genoa, and the Papal States.

 

[The Turk]

Overall the bulk of Medieval armies (before nationalism) were mercenary armies especially but not limited to Western Europe

 

[AbsintheRed]

Overall the bulk of Medieval armies (before nationalism) were mercenary armies especially but not limited to Western Europe

Mercenary armies were not as common in Eastern- and Middle-Europe, as they were in western Europe.
There were of course mercenaries used, especially under a few rulers, but in most cases the bulk of the army was very far from hired mercenaries AFAIK

In my eyes this still means that the best option is to implement both conditional UUs and conditional mercenaries

 

[The Turk]

Mercenary armies were not as common in Eastern- and Middle-Europe, as they were in western Europe.
There were of course mercenaries used, especially under a few rulers, but in most cases the bulk of the army was very far from hired mercenaries AFAIK

In my eyes this still means that the best option is to implement both conditional UUs and conditional mercenaries

I agree with you 100%! Something like conditional mercanaries like in SoI are totally in order. The English should not be choosing from the same mercanary list as the Ottomans or Arabs for example, unless they own territory in the Middle East, and even then some units should be based on religion.

 

[civ_king]

Conditional mercenaries seems like a good way to implement the Conditional UUS, some could be tied to a specific province while others to several

 

[Caliom]

From what I've read here, I think I understand that these units can be coded to be built in certain regions and not replace their equivalent unit, but they would become their own unit class? Entirely new unit classes would mean having to code their affiliations with techs, resources, bonuses/penalties against other units... This will then pose a problem for the AI in evaluation of said techs, this information can be hidden from the AI?? But this would still result in the AI building these units, correct?

I would make them replace the default unit, but that is of course optional.
Their affiliations with techs, resources, bonuses/penalties against other units, etc has to be done regardless of if you implement them as mercenaries or buildable UUs.

I think there is even a chance to make the Units without a new UnitClass. This way it wouldn crowd the techtree and for the AI tech evaluation should not change.

The Problem is, that each civilization can have only one UnitClass per UnitType. So we have to make sure that for the new units this restriction isn't checked.
For example all units, that use a "requireProvince" condition could bypass this check. The check is made in CvPlayer::canTrain.

I think you could still use the upgrade mechanism to disable the default unit, even if they have the same UnitClass.
But you couldn't disable the units fo certain civs anymore.

 

[Morholt]

Some ideas:
Hackapell - Pistolier, Finland
Varangian Guard - Axeman, Constantinople
Gallowglass - Maceman, Scotland
Highlander - Line Infantry, Scotland
Pandur - Line Infantry?, Croatia
Swiss Pikeman - Pikeman, Swabia/Lombardy/Burgudy
Condottiere - Knight, Lombardy
Landsknecht - Pikeman, Germany area
Zaporozhie Cossack - Musketman, Zaporozhia
Don Cossack - Pistolier, Kuban

 

[Opera]

Most players don't use mercenaries. If a new player didn't read about these units somewhere, they likely wouldn't know they existed after the first game of RFC Europe (maybe slightly confused after spotting a single British highlander or two). This is also true because the AI wouldn't use them as much. Most of the push for using the mercenary system comes from the fact that it is easier.

Huh? The AI does hire mercenary frequently... I can tell you tales of mercenaries hired by Venezia or the Bulgarians that were formidable foes The only issue with mercenaries is that there are frequently none to be hired. Also, probably a message saying "New mercenaries are available" should be added, to keep the players looking for them.

Using unique UUs for mercenaries would be a good incentive to actually use the mercenary system rather than ignoring it. If it's just there to be ignored, might as well get rid of it... And yet Genoa has a mercenary-related UP.

The mercenary solution is not only easier it's also way more practical than the convoluted way to add the other solution and all the fixes that needs to be added to them. I don't understand the problem, why do you keep on insisting on having to build them? Isn't buying them interesting enough?

 

[Michael Vick]

Huh? The AI does hire mercenary frequently... I can tell you tales of mercenaries hired by Venezia or the Bulgarians that were formidable foes The only issue with mercenaries is that there are frequently none to be hired. Also, probably a message saying "New mercenaries are available" should be added, to keep the players looking for them.

Using unique UUs for mercenaries would be a good incentive to actually use the mercenary system rather than ignoring it. If it's just there to be ignored, might as well get rid of it... And yet Genoa has a mercenary-related UP.

The mercenary solution is not only easier it's also way more practical than the convoluted way to add the other solution and all the fixes that needs to be added to them. I don't understand the problem, why do you keep on insisting on having to build them? Isn't buying them interesting enough?

A few people agree that it "feels" better. If you build the unit in your territory you get a greater sense that you're building your own very special unit in your special new territory and it's just that much more flavorful/tasty.

I'm saying if it's done the mercenary way, something should be done to let the player know just exactly when, where, and why they have a new unit available only to them in the mercenary screen.

 

[ezzlar]

I am not that into more units. We already have plenty.

The idea is not bad and it would create a better mod. However I think the limited resources we have are better spent on more crucial game mechanics.