FA Alliance Discussion; MILITARY ASPECTS

Discussion in 'Civ3 - Demo Game VII: Citizens' started by Ranger99, Sep 10, 2005.

  1. Ranger99

    Ranger99 Ranger99's Going to NAVY?

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    The creation of this thread was suggested by our President, as he has stated that the Military Aspects need to be stated and reviewed as well.

    So here we go;

    The Link to the original proposal is right...here

    The POlitical and Military aspects of the Alliance are being discussed there, while this thread has been opened for the disscussion and creation of a Military Policy should the Alliance be made, OR if it isn;t made and how we should go about building our military FOR this Alliance and its possible operation.
    That was quoted directly by me from the other thread, I briefly went over the Logistics of such an undertaking as well as the Rewards. Any disscussion adn/or Military policy os NEEDED in this thread for the best possible route to take, on whether to sign the Alliance or not to sign the Alliance.

    EDIT: I whipped this thread up pretty fast and left out afew important details. If you take a look at the map, Liepzig to our east has been destroyed, to our South East, Lies Berlin, this city is VERY close to our own borders. Which offers a double edged sowrd here. The ability to take it and annex it making it the German city that we take. This offers good benefitsas it's very colse to our own borders and can become one of our core Cities relativley fast and be absorbed into our core.

    But on the flip side it is CLOSE to our borders, therefore allowing German troops to make their way atraight into our lands, with minimal oppostion and NONE of the other Nations will be there to act as a buffer for our saftey, this compltley exposes us.

    And last of all a city directly south of us, is also German. Thi gives us the Southern fornt to worry about, and if we Do sign the Alliance we proabably WILL face the brunt of the attacks as Berlin and the other city are right next to us.

    -Ranger99-
     
  2. Donovan Zoi

    Donovan Zoi The Return

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    Thank you, Ranger99, for the quick development of this thread.

    Here is the region in question:



    NOTE: Germany still has five cities total, which is why I included so much Fog of War in this shot.


    While I too have concerns, there are two things to keep in mind:

    • Germany has its hands full, and will likely not have much on the offensive

    • Hiedelburg is a relatively new city that can be razed quite quickly without incident. We just need an offensive unit or two to do it.

    However, Ranger99 is absolutely correct. Joining into this war would put us right on the front lines of Germany. Something to consider as we navigate through this momentous decision that will guide our policy for ages to come.

    So, how do we position ourselves for the spoils of Berlin, if that is indeed our target? Do we now connect our Iron immediately, or do we take a little time to build up some warriors for upgrade first? Do we want to descend on Berlin with Horsemen only? Do we want to engage with Germany at all?

    These are the questions, folks. Who wants to help out with the answers?
     
  3. Ranger99

    Ranger99 Ranger99's Going to NAVY?

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    Thank you very much for the Screenshot Mr. President, got any more militwary related ones?

    This one was very helpful. As you pointed out Heildeburg is a new city, which should have a Spearman alone defnding it, it's on Tundra and has no defensive bonus's at all...Easy take if we can churn out an offensive unit to deal with it.

    Germany IS quite loaded at the moment, very true...So a small defensive force rather than a large one is needed, but we lack any basis of defnse at all right now (Other than garrisoned Hoplites.)

    And 5 Cities, is quite a few! They must extend pretty deep into the Fog of War then, I wish we had better intelligence on this one right here, but that can't be helped.

    If we sign the Alliance I propse a pre-build of a Horseman ASAP, followed quickly be a Swordsman as we connec tthe Iron as fast as we can to get some Swordsman out, who can later be integrated into the RDF if it passes.

    At the moment I just don't see us taking Berlin....Which isn't very good as i'm estimating some 3 Swrodsman would be needed (At the least) to take the city, if at all. Those three Swordsman take quite a while to build. But anything less than that and Berlin is untouchable and a compltete wwaste of our time. Horseman cannot take the city, BUT they CAN raze the surrounding countryside, AND get deep into the German territory to find outa little more about their lands, which is vital for the War Effort.

    -Ranger99-
     
  4. Provolution

    Provolution Sage of Quatronia

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    i would delay the war for about 20 turns, likely right after we revolutionize. A revolt lasts 2-6 turns of anarchy, about the distance to a german city. the anarchy time should be the moratorium for the Golden Age, giving Germany 2-6 turns to die on a hoplite.
     
  5. Donovan Zoi

    Donovan Zoi The Return

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    And what do you propose to do about the Swordsman at our doorstep? What is the contingency plan if this FA proposal fails?

    Locking ourselves in an alliance doesn't mean we have to fight right away. France and Rome are getting the added assurance that we won't be gunning for them either.

    An immediate alliance protects us on two fronts so that we can safely do the things you mention. We can still follow your timeline for the attack whether we are still allied at that time or not.
     
  6. Provolution

    Provolution Sage of Quatronia

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    I think we need to make the French happy for a 20 turns time, by a tech agreement, then create the alliance by turn 20, and be certain it is the right alliance.
     
  7. Donovan Zoi

    Donovan Zoi The Return

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    Then we will be locked in at 20 turns when we may not want to do so. By getting in early, we can be assured of getting out when the time is right.

    Do we really want to stay at war with Germany for long after our conquest of their city? NO. So why not begin a 20-year plan for the alliance now that culminates with the taking of Berlin? Then we end the alliance, and move on to the next victim. ;)

    Also, does a straight up tech agreement have a 20 year life? Even if they give us gold per turn, just more reason for them to break the deal. An alliance against Germany will be more solid for relations.
     
  8. Provolution

    Provolution Sage of Quatronia

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    Allright, Donovan Zoi, you persuaded me, we should conquer one German city, then end the war right afterwards. Yet, we need to time in the revolution, so I would say we enter this alliance by the end of next turnchat, or in the beginning of a turnchat two TCs away.

    Very valid point, we want the War on the following condititions

    First hoplite attacked right after becoming a Republic - about 26 turns from now maximum, triggers Golden Age.

    Military alliance ends right after German city capture - about 28-30 turns from now, given flexibility for tides of war

    We need the added security of an alliance within 10 turns or so.

    I suggest setting up the alliance by the end of next turnchat, then judge the situation in the forums and prepare the war in detail for the following turnchat.

    Turnchat 1 preparing for the alliance, entering alliance by TC end
    Turnchat 2 preparing the Expedition Force
    Turnchat 3 the German Campaign, turnchat ends with the end of the alliance.

    That will cover 30 turns and handle all conditions.
     
  9. Ranger99

    Ranger99 Ranger99's Going to NAVY?

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    Very good. We have a large picture of the Operation that we may undertake.

    The Logistical side is still to come....

    -Ranger99-
     
  10. Civlord

    Civlord King

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    Mr. President,

    First of all, we must think on the internal aspects of Fanatikos. We are yet too underdeveloped and our economy is not strong enough to afford a war with Germany. Since our next Government will be Republic, I even doubt that we are going to make war without having our cities rioting. Fanatikos cannot sustain a war for a large period of time, so I suggest we remain neutral for now. Only if Germany gets too powerful and inflict significant damage to France and Rome I would make war. In this case, if we are forced to, with a decisive strike, our troops can take Berlin and other important cities and make the Germans surrender. We must not make an attrition war: because this is 5CC, our economy is weak and won't be able to pay our soldiers for too long against mighty Germany. Let's adopt a "United States 1917" strategy, like President Wilson did. We must declare war only if we are sure we are going to win it quickly.

    Respectfully,

    Civlord
     
  11. Ranger99

    Ranger99 Ranger99's Going to NAVY?

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    ALright from what I gather we have the basic timeline down, IF we sign the Alliance pac. Personally I think that we are basically ready if we can connec tthe iron quickly, and get some Horses, and build a Swordsman or maybe 2, 2 Horses and 2 extra Hoplites are ALL THAT I NEED for this war, at least for the capture of one city plus a few other operations.

    Taking a look at the map I designed our first and foremost priorities if we go to war, are to firtify a Hoplite on our Iron, and then one in the Mountains to the East allowing the Hoplite to view and moniter all military movement on our eastern borders. That's our first priority.

    The second thing that's easily achievable is to l;aunch an assault on Heidelburg, which is a brand new city, and will probably be defended by only a single Spearman. Taking Heidleburg would be an easy objective, yet not a primary one yet.

    At the moment Berlin is out of reach and unattainable wothout heavy military build-up. But my last and final idea is a riskier one, but one that i think we can pull-off with miimal losses. IT's the big red line leading directly into German territory, to see everything they got and get up-to-date intelligence on the Germans.

    One last thing that I didn't include was using the Warrior (Apollo) to moniter French and Roman movements into the German Lands which would be invaluable to telling us what we need to do militaryily.

    Rememeber, this is only a basic attack plan, IF we sign the alliance.

    Thank you, that is all.

    -Ranger99-
     

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  12. DaveShack

    DaveShack Inventor Retired Moderator

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    If we decide to attack Berlin while Germany is at war with the others, the one thing we need to avoid is failing to capture it but damaging its defenses enough for one of the others to capture or destroy it. That means we need to either capture it in one turn, with overwhelming force, or keep a close eye out for other civ's offensive units and hold up our attack if they are in position to capitalize on a potential blunder.
     
  13. DaveShack

    DaveShack Inventor Retired Moderator

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    If we decide to go on the offensive sooner rather than later, we'll need to change existing builds to horsemen or warriors (for upgrade after iron is connected) and consider pop rushing a 2nd set of units.
     
  14. Nobody

    Nobody Gangster

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    I think we should also plan for a war against france, which i think is more likely.
     
  15. Donovan Zoi

    Donovan Zoi The Return

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    Ranger99, you have touched on two major points I was hoping you would: protection of resources and deployment of Mountain sentries. Great work!

    Everyone must remember that in the beginning this is a defensive war, so we don't have to worry about winning it all at once. Perhaps we should add the contingency that the alliance proposal will only go into effect if France invades ourborders next turn. Would that event change anyone's mind about this plan?
     
  16. Donovan Zoi

    Donovan Zoi The Return

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    Are you kidding? France and Rome are joined at the hip right now. War with France will only add Rome to our troubles shortly thereafter.

    And if we are crafty enough (or rich enough) to get Rome to betray their lifelong ally, we will bring utter chaos to the region.

    France + Rome + Fanatikos -----> Germany is a much more linear and sensible scenario.
     
  17. Civlord

    Civlord King

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    Mr. President,

    What I am affraid of is of a possible declaration of war from the French even with the MA against Germany. We must stay neutral, so we don't have war in two fronts. If we declare war on Germany and France betrays us, then we will have serious problems. We don't have money to improve our troops, we don't have money to recruit more peasants nor do we have money to support an attrition war against foreign great powers. If only France declares war on us, then we will have more chances of resisting than if we have the entire world against us, because certaily Rome and Persia will enter in this war.

    Sincerely,

    Governor Civlord
     
  18. GenMarshall

    GenMarshall Night Elven Ghost Agent

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    Now comes the question in general, is Berlin worth capturing. If it does not hold anything of value to us in wonders, then it should be razed.
     
  19. RegentMan

    RegentMan Deity

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    What German city would you propose we keep then? It is the Expatriate Governor's position that Berlin is our target German city, unless many are partial to Heidelburg.
     
  20. GenMarshall

    GenMarshall Night Elven Ghost Agent

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    Well, Heidelburg is useless to us and should be razed. RegentMan, as the Epatriate Governor, what value do you see in Berlin if I may ask. There would not be any culture buildings once Berlin has been captured. If we wish to capture and hold Berlin, I strongly urge the Governor to build culture buildings to prevent the city refliping back to Germany (I know its a small chance, but its still too small to take the risk).
     

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