Fall Further 050 Balance Issues

[Vehem]

Many new features, lots of potential to create balance issues. We've been as careful as we can not to create anything massively unbalanced, but the best way to gauge that is through feedback from a much larger player base than the 4 of us (who to be honest, spend more time modding than playing at the moment).

This the thread to raise and discuss any concerns about a feature that is potentially too strong or generally too weak. It's unlikely that everyone will agree on every point here, but we will consider anything raised.

 

[kenken244]

Should hell oceans really spawn water elementals and ira even though the land spawns only warriors?

 

[jwin]

Taking away carnivals from fesival tech makes capturing animals a lot less interesting and useful in non-combat settings.

In my game so far, I think the guilds seem like a fairly balanced way to use GP.

As I mentioned in the bugh thread, upgrading a tier 2 Austren recon to the tier 3 loses ability to ignore teraiin costs and seems almost like a downgrade.

I hadn't played FF further in a while so don't know if it is new, but taking longer to build roads outside your cultural boundaries I think helps keep early spamming of big empires down. Also slows warrior rush backup.

I like the wokers being able to build from the start, but I am not sure if it is working as intended for the AI. I think this may be because they put a worker to work for 40 turns, and he is not available to do other things that they do have the tech for. I do know for sure, but am basing it on my current game on variable difficulty. I didn't rush education or eler councils, have been at immortal or diety pretty much the whole game, and still lead technologically.

 

[Breez]

Spoiler :

I had a lair spawn 3 gargoyles on Turn 75ish.

2 Barb Gargs and 1 for some reason was mine now. Pretty powerful having a 8 unit when everyone else still has Warriors.

EDIT: Never mind I see this listed in the bug thread as unintended

 

[Master176281]

I am not sure if it is correct that some buildings for the Elohim (Minster, Abbey) can be produced faster with a spiritual leader. The buildings are special for the Elohim but they do not have a spiritual leader.

btw fantastic mod

 

[Vehem]

I am not sure if it is correct that some buildings for the Elohim (Minster, Abbey) can be produced faster with a spiritual leader. The buildings are special for the Elohim but they do not have a spiritual leader.

btw fantastic mod

It is possible for the Elohim to become Spiritual though. Try visiting some of the Unique Sites that they are supposed to protect...

 

[Gilg]

It's possible to farm gp's, but given the power of the new corps, it seems like a very good idea to get them up and running early..... but how?? markets and artisans... Getting to the corp that has any meaning for ones economy seems like a one track road.

Access to merchants and engineers seems too limited in relation to how needed they are.

 

[Vehem]

It's possible to farm gp's, but given the power of the new corps, it seems like a very good idea to get them up and running early..... but how?? markets and artisans... Getting to the corp that has any meaning for ones economy seems like a one track road.

Access to merchants and engineers seems too limited in relation to how needed they are.

Engineers got a new building to help with that (Artisan's Workshop) - Merchants get a few buildings along the Currency line (Markets and Moneychangers being the favoured two).

As you mentioned, the guilds can be quite handy - so getting the GP in order to found them is part of the process to earn them. It also means that there is a bit more of a priority for GP other than Sages...

 

[Gilg]

Merchants are cowered, yes. But making sure you get that first engineer requires luck or patience and choosing between a Corp or a masters isn't fun.
Getting the second and choosing between a second masters or a corp is a bit easier.

But.... Guilds come in the endgame.... too late for founding a guild, the engineer slots on the masters require a GE. Whats left is artisans and the forge (which makes little sense as long as you have a shot at guild of hammers)

It doesn't seem like a lot of options and it doesn't leave a lot of room for the masters...... Getting 4 great engineers for the Masters hall seems like an altar nr 2. How fast could it be done?

There is very little room for anything if you want be the first to get the guild and master smiths and so on will only come into the game "very late"

An early national wonder with a free engineer or another early slot seems like a very good idea. Either that or opening up for the masters to be build by any gp.

 

[shoggi]

i just noticed you didn't do the forst/jungle-chopping shift to one tech earlier, like in FFH2. is this because of the ability to do that without techs?
i ask, because i found that a pretty good change to the game, because you weren't that screwed if you started in a jungle rich area.

 

[Vehem]

i just noticed you didn't do the forst/jungle-chopping shift to one tech earlier, like in FFH2. is this because of the ability to do that without techs?
i ask, because i found that a pretty good change to the game, because you weren't that screwed if you started in a jungle rich area.

We had originally discussed moving it back one (or two) and having Bronze working/Sanitation increase the speed back to normal. Then we considered the slow-build for any improvement (which seems to help the AI with it's allergy to cottages) and went with that instead.

In the meantime, Kael moved it himself for the main game - so it may be worth considering to do that as well (just makes it that much quicker to do).

 

[xienwolf]

As for the Guilds vs Masterwork issue. I personally consider having those a bonus, not a "standard" so they SHOULD be hard to get both/all of them. "As hard as Altar Level 2" isn't terribly hard in my opinion, so seems like a decent point to have them, if not a bit too easy.

And getting every masterwork building (in every city) should be comperable to getting the Tower of Mastery. You have to suit your playstyle toward it and plan early, while sacrificing a few other possible choices along the way.

 

[Valkrionn]

I've got them all in my current Scions game, actually, but as a result don't have a lvl 5 Altar like I usually do... My doomsayers are missing out on a ton of xp.

Also, it seems to me that the master buildings are somewhat of a feedback loop... Get one, and it becomes easier to get an engineer and get the next.

 

[FireBlaze]

Lost Hyborem from exploring a Goblin Fort. Something tells me that the goblins are doing some pretty nasty stuff down there.

 

[Sarisin]

Only my first game, but based on it, I have to say, What happened to the raging barbs?

I played 400 Turns and never had more than 2 barbs inside my territory. Also, in most games one or more AI civs are wiped out by barbs. None in this game.

I think part of the problem is the same as in FFH. Too many barbs that could be 'raging' are guarding or defending. I'm finding that many barb cities (yes, I use Barbarian World) have four or more defenders. Goblin forts have 3 defenders. Barrows, ruins, goody huts, have defenders.

You have more animals in FF - a good thing, but still they prevent the other barbs from spawning.

Also, it was after Turn 300 before I saw anything besides a barb Goblin or Warrior. Then, only a rare Lizardman showed up. I made it just past Turn 400 and no Axemen, Archers, Wolf Riders, etc.

I never thought I'd say it, but please bring me more barbs!

 

[Sarisin]

I don't think it is a bug, but as a feature something is wrong. When your damaged unit is also poisoned, it takes just too many turns to heal.

I set a personal record for healing turns and it just doesn't make sense.

I stepped just outside my borders with my HN Curley to kill an approaching Scorpion Clan Archer. My combat odds were 99.9% as Curley had quite a few promotions. Still, he was damaged, and the number of turns to heal? How about 38 turns?

I moved Curley back inside my borders, and it was cut roughly in half. However, doesn't 38 turns to heal seem excessive particularly when you just defeated a unit you were very heavily favored to defeat? I can see it maybe if my odds were minimal, but this is a bit ridiculous.

I just think the whole poisoned mechanism, especially when it comes to HN units getting it, is out of whack.

 

[xienwolf]

Animals most certainly cannot impact Barbarian spawn rates now, with them being a completely seperate civ. But the guarding of lairs does hamper their ability to roam freely. I am not sure that it is really worthwhile to be honest, because the lairs can guard themselves quite easily. I fear that is probably legacy code from before Lair Exploration which is in need of review.


As for the Barbarian predeliction to guard cities... I would love to fix that one. My natural inclination would be to make Barbarians refuse to defend their cities, but to spawn free defenders when a non-ally gets too close Or to simply have a beast along the lines of Acheron in each city

 

[Valkrionn]

Not really an issue, but something I've never seen before.... got a +1 'We long for the open country' modifier.... What causes this?

 

[Sarisin]

Animals most certainly cannot impact Barbarian spawn rates now, with them being a completely seperate civ. But the guarding of lairs does hamper their ability to roam freely. I am not sure that it is really worthwhile to be honest, because the lairs can guard themselves quite easily. I fear that is probably legacy code from before Lair Exploration which is in need of review.


As for the Barbarian predeliction to guard cities... I would love to fix that one. My natural inclination would be to make Barbarians refuse to defend their cities, but to spawn free defenders when a non-ally gets too close Or to simply have a beast along the lines of Acheron in each city

I agree with you about the Animals, xienwolf. In fact, in my first game, I didn't see many Animals spawning after a while and the map only half full.

You make a very good point about the lairs, etc. guarding themselves. I would estimate that roughly 50% of the time the result I get is "A powerful whatever is defending its lair" and the next thing to happen is my unit is killed. Why have another unit on the lair to kill just to get the opportunity to explore?

I think if you use the Barbarian World option on a huge map you get at least 10-12 barb cities to start. That is 24 barb defenders from the get-go. Then, some do wander off, but also some add to the defenders. I've also noticed that when a Scorpion Clan Archer moves from a Goblin fort to a barb city, especially when the city is on a hill, you can forget about taking that city for a long time. The defenders can pile up then. You really have to try and pick off those Archers before they make it to a city. They are tough enough trying to kill fortified on the Goblin forts.

 

[[to_xp]Gekko]

why are the prereqs for cutting forests and jungle still at Bronze Working and Sanitation instead of Mining and Bronze Working? I think that change greatly improves the early game.