Fall of Rome and its relevance

[Snowygerry]

Why focus on the *fall* of Rome, all empires fall in time, makes it out as if they would still be around if only they did something different,
would it not be better to study the period before the fall ?

 

[r16]

because you are past that point .

 

[Sahvie]

I think you're underestimating how interconnected Rome was with its neighbors. The "barbarian invasions" weren't just random tribes showing up - many of these groups had been trading, fighting, and interacting with Rome for centuries. Some even served in Roman armies. When the migrations happened, it wasn't just pure destruction - it was more like a complex reshuffling of power relationships that had already existed. The fixed border strategy definitely contributed to problems, but more because it was expensive to maintain than because it couldn't handle migrations.

Also worth noting that while Rome's exact systems aren't used today, things like their legal concepts and administrative practices influenced a lot of modern governments. So while I agree it's not directly comparable, saying it has little modern relevance might be going too far.

 

[Voidwalkin]

Yes, breaching the borders of a state, sacking its cities, and using military force on hundreds of occasions to force it to recognize your claim to rule of territory it considers is own is not invasion.

It's a special military operation or something.

 

[Gori the Grey]

Why focus on the *fall* of Rome, all empires fall in time, makes it out as if they would still be around if only they did something different,
would it not be better to study the period before the fall ?

I will say, I think this is actually part of what drives interest in Rome: that first England and now America feel themselves to be the big guy on the block, wonder if (/when) they are going to lose that status, and wonder if there is some way to avoid doing so.

 

[Voidwalkin]

Why focus on the *fall* of Rome, all empires fall in time, makes it out as if they would still be around if only they did something different,
would it not be better to study the period before the fall ?

I think a pretty compelling argument can be made that China, historically, began as empire, invading and conquering and assimilating(often violently) the rice farming states and tribes south of the Yangtze so successfully it ceased to be an empire at all, and just became a normal state.

The US is on a comparable track on the NA continent.

I dunno if all empires fall holds.

 

[Snowygerry]

In that context it is interesting

I will say, I think this is actually part of what drives interest in Rome: that first England and now America feel themselves to be the big guy on the block, wonder if (/when)

I think a pretty compelling argument can be made that China, historically, began as empire, invading and conquering and assimilating(often violently) the rice farming states and tribes south of the Yangtze so successfully it ceased to be an empire at all, and just became a normal state.

A normal state ?

The size of a continent,the original Rome was a city state, and if had remained as such it would not have fallen, imho.

 

[Valka D'Ur]

I think a pretty compelling argument can be made that China, historically, began as empire, invading and conquering and assimilating(often violently) the rice farming states and tribes south of the Yangtze so successfully it ceased to be an empire at all, and just became a normal state.

The US is on a comparable track on the NA continent.

I dunno if all empires fall holds.

Considering the bile spewing from Trump these days, about Canada becoming the 51st state, this is not normal.

Our federal government is imploding, and if the Americans were really serious, there's not a lot we could do about it.

In that context it is interesting



A normal state ?

The size of a continent,the original Rome was a city state, and if had remained as such it would not have fallen, imho.

Eventually city-states have to give, as those around them couldn't be guaranteed not to want to expand. So yeah, it would have fallen, likely in a war or if there had been a plague or environmental catastrophe they couldn't have dealt with effectively.

I should really re-read Roma Eterna.

 

[Voidwalkin]

A normal state?

Yeah, a state ruling over a common culture, rather than a state formed by one group using force to subjugate many and rule according to its, not their interest.

You can see that a common culture was forming. Gallo-Roman art looks pretty Roman by the end. Language, too. I don't think the Roman Empire was so far from pulling off what China did, and today, i don't think its so well known China expanded Han culture in this way. Subjugate, dominate, assimilate. It can work, it's not a doomed effort.

 

[banzay13]

Yeah, a state ruling over a common culture, rather than a state formed by one group using force to subjugate many and rule according to its, not their interest.

You can see that a common culture was forming. Gallo-Roman art looks pretty Roman by the end. Language, too. I don't think the Roman Empire was so far from pulling off what China did, and today, i don't think its so well known China expanded Han culture in this way. Subjugate, dominate, assimilate. It can work, it's not a doomed effort.

One Ring Culture Coke to rule them all