Fall patch discussion thread

[Cymsdale]

Yeah, I don't like this at all. I hope we can turn it off at some point.

Recommendations have been in pretty much every civ game, no?

Just ignore it, not that big a deal.

 

[rezaf]

This is simply not realistic diplomacy.

Lol.

You DO remember we're talking about the game in which an AI civ declares war on you, you fight them back, after losing a couple of units, they offer you peace on favorable terms.
Some years later, they declare war again, with the same outcome.
And then they do it again.
Afterwards, when peace has been declared for the third time, after the third war they have stared, they denounce you for being a warmonger.

There's no diplomatic victory because meaningful diplomacy isn't implemented.
On one hand, I'd hope they'll fix this in an expansion. But on the other hand, unless they do some serious fixing in free patches first, I'm not sure if I'm inclined to purchase said expansion. I'll probably get it heavily discounted at some sale, but full price?
This'll take some convincing updates.

 

[Agent327]

Why are you repeating my comment? 'Civ 6 doesn't have realistic diplomacy.'

Oh, eh... LOL

 

[Siesta Guru]

Well behavior trees are used a lot these days (which doesn't automatically mean they are the best solution for all types of games). This is a good start if you want to know more: http://www.gamasutra.com/blogs/ChrisSimpson/20140717/221339/Behavior_trees_for_AI_How_they_work.php

But yeah, they DO have problems when it comes to reacting to events and when trying to coordinate multiple actors together. But they also allow tons of moddability (particulary if you can code new nodes).

In theory the concept can kind of work if a lot of effort is put into it. However, in civ 6, you cannot code nodes and the nodes present are incredibly limited. There's almost no conditionals, the few variables that can be set are arcane in usage, there's no gotos, and the way it selects which of its nodes are childnodes may be buggy (or I don't understand it properly yet). Worst though, most of the leafnodes are on a very high level, without any control over the finer details. For instance, the only way to interact with enemy units at all is to use an 'attack units' node. You cannot specify what units it should attack, which units in its group this should apply to, etc.
Like in theory, it could be useful and very moddable. But in reality, the tree that makes it choose what improvements to build is a bit of fluff around a node that says 'choose improvements'. It would require a signfiicant overhaul to even get this to the point where it can be used for okayish smart decision making, and would never even approach something like a neural net implementation.

 

[rezaf]

Finished up my first full post-patch game and I think I'm gonna shelve the game for the time being.
There's a solid game somewhere therein, but it's disheartening to see how much work is still left to do.
Even leaving the AI aside, the UI still leaves a lot to be desired, pacing and balancing are totally off, diplomacy is broken, religion is a Moderator Action: <snip> and too much of the game resembles a chore more than entertainment.

In this game, I've not seen many carpets of doom,but not many coordinated forces either. Usually, the AI declared war on me without forces on the ready and then sent in a tickle of troops whom I could defeat piecemeal. I don't really know whether this is worse or better than my first games, where the AI would phone in it's "surprise war" a dozen turns before the fact by sending in so many troops it fell over it's own feet.
At least the AI DID build many corps and armies - though too often of long outclassed troop types.
I also actually encountered the scenario I was kidding about earlier where I was trying to besiege a city but could not get in range because two civs neutral to the conflict were duking it out with their apostles.

It's also kinda fishy that AIs vastly outclassed militarily are acting the way they are. I hated the idea introduced in Civ5 that an AI should be "playing to win" in the same way a player is, but at least I could understand the reasoning.
Here, I'm getting demands (they didn't even bother to make an extra exchange for this, the AI just suggest "trades" offering nothing in return) from Civs I'm way superior to.
Third world powers with medieval forces declare war on me, facing off their pikemen against my modern tanks, helicopters and rocket artillery.
I get trade offers for half a dozen luxury goods in exchange for one and 2 gold per turn or something - why can't the AI suggest (or agree to) something that's mutually beneficial?
If I NEVER declared a single war, why must everyone denounce me as a warmonger?
I'd take the Civ1 AI over this mess any day.

Due to the AI's inability to properly wage war, I'd been holding back on going for a domination victory (the AI is so bad this feels like cheating) but went for a science victory. When I first tried this, it was my very first game, and I didn't know a thing about planning cities to maximise factory overlap or stuff like that, so all the space projects took in excess of 50 turns and I ended up accidentally winning a culture victory instead while building the first mars project.
This time around, I was a century earlier and HAD planned a cluster of cities, complete with the Ruhr Valley and whatnot, yet in the best city (the one with the Ruhr Valley), each of those projects still took 28'ish turns, 35ish in the other cities of the cluster.
Since you cannot rush these projects, I feel this is far, FAR too long. Not to mention it's kinda counter intuitive that you now need to be the best civ at producing things when you were going for a science win.
I was still not finished with the moon landing when I noticed a few nudges should get me over the culture victory threshold, so I went for that again to avoid having to brainlessly skip turn after turn a hundred or so times.

Ah well, like I wrote, I think I'll shelve Civ6 for the time being.
How do you guys deal with those issues? Or aren't they issues for you at all?

Moderator Action: Please comply with our rules regarding use of inappropriate language.
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889

Edit: Had used some word involving cluster and was asked to edit, but I think the moderator action thing gives the (omitted) description just the right kind of gravity. Thanks Browd!

 

[BuzWeaverCiv]

Does anyone know why we don't have a Population Notification?

 

[CaiusDrewart]

For some the AI will never be good enough, not that it was ever good in any of the games. The only thing 1UPT doesn't allow is for the AI's massive production advantages to kick in by overwhelming the player.

I mean, this might be the only thing, but it is a huge deal. This basically determines whether the AI has any hope of ever possibly conquering the human player, or of putting up effective resistance to human attacks. This factor makes an enormous difference in game difficulty. It really can't be overstated.

 

[Mathias Rex]

Is there anywhere a screenshot about the new map types, especially about the snowflake one for 6 players? Im curious how its look like.

 

[CaiusDrewart]

Is there anywhere a screenshot about the new map types, especially about the snowflake one for 6 players? Im curious how its look like.

Try here and here.

 

[Mathias Rex]

Try here and here.

Thanks!

 

[funkymunky]

bladex said: ↑
been playing planet coaster. i start a new game of civ VI today with the patch installed now and than i hear this sound like a chain rattle but i don't see anything or there are no notifications anyone know what this sound does? and no it's not the sound from the trade route. it sort of goes like "chink" for about half a sec

Does it sound like clanking metal armor? I think I heard that sound before one time when the turn counter changed and my camera was near a swordman. Didn't stop until I clicked end turn again.

 

[Disgustipated]

Is there anywhere a screenshot about the new map types, especially about the snowflake one for 6 players? Im curious how its look like.

A bit too much water for my tastes, but it's worth trying for something different. One thing you'll notice is resources galore in this map. I'm pretty sure I used standard resources (no way to check unfortunately), it makes for an easy single player game. This map really should be played in multiplayer.

I was hoping the branches of the star would be thicker strips of land (I played on small map), but oh well.

 

[c4c6]

On disbanding units Civ1 gave you 50% back of the shields needed for production ...

I should have mentioned, that disbanding units was possible everywhere, but the 50% payback of shields only applied, if the unit stood on a own city tile. For civ6 I would suggest the same: disbanding units is possible anytime, but the 50% shields-payback applies only, if the unit stands on a city CENTER tile (where the equipment can be recycled) regardless the health of the unit, builders weighted on still unused charges.
This should be implemented in a way, that production boni (e.g. cards "bonus for horse based units") are NOT applied again. Such boni should only be applied ONCE, namely when the turn based yields are harvested from the tiles, woods are chopped etc.

 

[player1 fanatic]

That system existed in Civ1 for a reason. It was only way to "upgrade" units. While later Civ games replaced it with gold.

 

[Disgustipated]

Speaking of disbanding units, I would be okay with disbanding units not in the city center mentioned above, but in the encampment for a production bonus, not gold. It would really add value to the encampment which is not a very good district.

That system existed in Civ1 for a reason. It was only way to "upgrade" units. While later Civ games replaced it with gold.

I believe it was in Civ2 as well. And I believe you could upgrade units in Civ2 and not have to build new ones. I believe Civ2 they gave you shields. I didn't use it a whole lot, but it could be useful.

 

[player1 fanatic]

In Civ2 you got free upgrade with overpowered wonder.

 

[Disgustipated]

ahh yes, I believe it was Leonardo's workshop if I'm not mistaken. Gotta miss those overpowered wonders like Hoover Dam.

 

[Magil]

I should have mentioned, that disbanding units was possible everywhere, but the 50% payback of shields only applied, if the unit stood on a own city tile. For civ6 I would suggest the same: disbanding units is possible anytime, but the 50% shields-payback applies only, if the unit stands on a city CENTER tile (where the equipment can be recycled) regardless the health of the unit, builders weighted on still unused charges.
This should be implemented in a way, that production boni (e.g. cards "bonus for horse based units") are NOT applied again. Such boni should only be applied ONCE, namely when the turn based yields are harvested from the tiles, woods are chopped etc.

I don't know, this mechanic seems very easily exploitable--load up on cheap units before you unlock a certain building/wonder, then chain-disbanded to instantly complete it. Disbanding units for production made sense when units needed to be supported by production, now that they are supported by gold I think disbanding them for gold makes sense (with reasonable limitations, like much lower returns/only in your own territory).

 

[player1 fanatic]

Well Civ1 also had caravan units that could be used for transfering production in 1:1 ratio to build wonders.

 

[c4c6]

I would be okay with disbanding units not in the city center mentioned above, but in the encampment for a production bonus, not gold. It would really add value to the encampment which is not a very good district.

I like the idea of giving the encampment more value. Still I want allow this mechanic already when you haven't an encampment yet.

I don't know, this mechanic seems very easily exploitable--load up on cheap units before you unlock a certain building/wonder, then chain-disbanded to instantly complete it. Disbanding units for production made sense when units needed to be supported by production, now that they are supported by gold I think disbanding them for gold makes sense (with reasonable limitations, like much lower returns/only in your own territory).

I'm quite amused, that a standard exploit made it into my suggestion V1.0 Thank You for pointing out.
Regardless of the maintenance I would probably prefer to use the potential of the disbanded unit locally (production box) and not virtually teleported around the globe (via gold) - but no big deal, maybe it is easier to implement.

So again, Suggestion V1.1: Disbanding units is possible anytime, but the [25%, 50%] shields/hammers-payback applies only, if the unit stands on a city [CENTER, ENCAMPMENT] tile (where the equipment can be recycled) regardless the health of the unit, builders weighted on still unused charges. For every produced entity ONLY ONE unit may be disbanded.
This should be implemented in a way, that production boni (e.g. cards "bonus for horse based units") are NOT applied again. Such boni should only be applied ONCE on the RAW resources, namely when the turn based yields are harvested from the tiles, woods are chopped etc. and NOT AGAIN on RECYCLED resources.
(The same is valid for overflows in general: multipliers should only be applied ONCE)