Fast Science Victory: Civ VII Edition

[pmarc]

What is the determining factor for picking Scientific vs. Economic golden age for the Ant->Exp transition?

On a related point, if I read today's update notes correctly, it sounds like Shipbuilding is no longer required for Treasure Fleets/Convoys to spawn, so that could shake up the meta a bit. (Also the Hub Towns nerf and Urban / Mining town buffs! Even fewer cities in the horizon perhaps?)

 

[Salamis]

Incredible! It looks like 180 turns is likely very achievable now.

Definitely - I'm a bit annoyed I didn't get sub180 on this one. I think I played the Modern era pretty poorly in terms of planning for the projects.

I'd think going for Diplo attribute capstone repeats is the way to go.

Agreed - I didn't have any Alliances in this one but that was down to negligence/forward settling! I'm going to prioritise this in future games.

I'm still a little skeptical of prioritizing the free techs in Modern, but I can't deny that turn 25 Rocketry is very strong. Usually there's a big tech gap between the first and second science projects, resulting in some hammer downtime in the capital. So I suppose that it could be worth routing through the masteries and using free techs to shrink that gap, even if it meant you were starting the first project slightly later than otherwise.

Yeah I think it's arguably the toughest decision to make during Modern. Taking the free tech route requires completing all of the techs and masteries (14+11). Say you wanted to complete the final tech before turn 30, can you:
- Generate enough influence to befriend enough IP's by then
- Build Oxford University to provide two of the last techs (FYI - in this playthrough I made the mistake of having my capital build Oxford University which delayed project production)
- Complete the remaining techs in time
In this playthrough, befriending 8 IP's (two Scientific around turns 12-14 and the rest all on 25) and Oxford University gave 10 free techs and it was possible to research the other 15 by 25.
The big risk is that if even one IP gets cleared before being befriended, you're stuck without Rocketry and a low science rate will mean it will take many turns to research it.

If the base science rate is high enough there's less risk and the free techs aren't needed.

 

[Salamis]

What is the determining factor for picking Scientific vs. Economic golden age for the Ant->Exp transition?

For me, it's about having a higher base science rate in order to research as many early tree techs as possible before getting free techs from IP's.
1. Having 4 Golden Age Academies (obviously more is better but not always achievable) with (for example) on average of 3 adjacency each gives a base of 28 science. This doesn't sound like much when the first Exploration techs cost is 500 but it quickly increases with bonuses (specialists, science on scientific buildings etc.).
2. If you don't have this extra science, it will take longer to research Astronomy which in turn slows the acquisition of Observatories. Not by much though.
3. Is having more cities from an Economic Golden Age actually an advantage? The more cities you have at the end of Antiquity, the more of an advantage it could be.
Say you end with 4 cities: moving the capital gives you two free cities, the third will likely cost 200 and the fourth 1,000 (not completely sure on this so apologies if it's way more or less!). So you've saved 1,200ish BUT if they remain Towns, they will contribute gold so you're saving slightly less. Plus, if you specialise them, they provide extra yields.
If you ended the age with 7 cities, the amount of gold you're saving is obviously much higher but.....
4. What's that gold going to be used for? In Exploration, I usually only convert a Town to a City when I have enough gold to immediately buy at least the first available science building. If they're already cities then sure, I can buy the science buildings earlier. But if you take the Economic GA, how may extra science buildings do you need to make up for the loss of GA Academies that will be contributing science from Turn 1?

On a related point, if I read today's update notes correctly, it sounds like Shipbuilding is no longer required for Treasure Fleets/Convoys to spawn, so that could shake up the meta a bit. (Also the Hub Towns nerf and Urban / Mining town buffs! Even fewer cities in the horizon perhaps?)

For fast Science, I'm definitely more inclined towards more Towns, fewer Cities. In Antiquity and Exploration, I take the view that the main point of a city is to have the GA science building for the next age and any unique science buildings/quarters. Sure you need a few cities for producing wonders, units etc. but leaving more as Towns means you can increase the food going to cities and gain more specialists in those cities.

 

[Manpanzee]

I've been trending toward generally preferring Golden Age Academies myself, and will usually take it if I've actually gotten Academies down in Antiquity. But that doesn't always happen with more warmongery/civ-wiping strategies. With a better knowledge of narrative events, I've found that you can sometimes complete the Antiquity science path without even getting to Mathematics. So having access to the Golden Age doesn't always mean that you actually get anything out of it.

IMO the main benefit of saving your gold entering Exploration is spam-purchasing Settlers in the first few turns. Sometimes you get lucky and have plenty of immediately available distant land to get to without needing Shipbuilding. But that can be kind of a "highrolling" thing, and you can also end up with excess Settlers sitting in the archipelago for a dozen turns waiting for tech to catch up and unlock movement.

 

[Michael Lindskou]

Just play himiko: maya --- Abbosda---Japan and game over

t 14 Diety Standard speed

 

[MutilationWave]

Just play himiko: maya --- Abbosda---Japan and game over

t 14 Diety Standard speed
View attachment 735584

Holy ****!

 

[Salamis]

Just play himiko: maya --- Abbosda---Japan and game over

t 14 Diety Standard speed
View attachment 735584

Outstanding! Did you use Japan’s ability to bulb a few techs?

 

[Salamis]

New PB: Nowhere near the speed of @Michael Lindskou but it’s without Abbasids so I'm pretty pleased!

Pangea+ Standard size map, Standard speed, Deity (no customisation)
169 turns: 98 Antiquity, 45 Exploration, 26 Modern

Xerxes (Achaemenid) leading Maya --> Chola --> Japan
Mementos: Cultural attribute + 50 Influence for completing tech/civic masteries, Scientific + Influence on Science buildings, Scientific + Influence on Science buildings

End city count by age: 4, 8, 3
Legacy paths by age: Ant - 2/3 Military and Culture, the other two complete; Exp - Economy 0/3, the rest complete
Golden Ages: Both Scientific

Ant: Chose Xerxes to try to help improve relations via trade routes and use the gold bonus to finish with 5+ cities with complete UQ and academies (only finished with 4 though). No civs wiped, free future tech/civics finished the age.
Exp: Chose Chola for trade synergy with Xerxes, gold generation and the UQ has a happiness building that benefits from Maya's traditions (plus I hadn't played them before and wanted to try!). Free future techs finished the age.
Modern: Base science rate wasn't high enough so went with free tech suz and bulbed Rocketry on turn 25 (Japan's ability helped rush complete a couple of techs to avoid a free tech bonus granting a near-complete tech). The Maya UQ bonus (plus one IP harvest) helped complete the first of the final projects that turn - two more free future techs completed the final project on 26.

Attribute points: went with as many Diplomatic capstone repeats as possible (around 7 at the start of Modern). First alliance renewed on turn 2 in modern, second at about turn 7, a third at turn 24.

 

[Manpanzee]

Well, I think it's safe to say that the Maya UQ hammer bonus is still mega-busted

 

[Michael Lindskou]

Outstanding! Did you use Japan’s ability to bulb a few techs?

yes i did

 

[Salamis]

New PB: Still not close to the record but Modern was a bit faster. This was an attempt to push alliances and the diplomatic attribute capstone repeatable as much as possible.

Pangea+ Large size map, Standard speed, Deity (no customisation)
162 turns: 95 Antiquity, 44 Exploration, 23 Modern

Himiko (QoW) leading Maya --> Majapahit --> Japan
Mementos: Cultural + Diplo attributes, Scientific + Influence on Science buildings, Scientific + Influence on Science buildings

End city count by age: 5, 8, 5 (in Modern the 4th and 5th cities were converted on the penultimate turn for overbuilding to try to bulb a few Masteries to speed up the final two projects)
Legacy paths by age: Ant - all complete; Exp - Economy 1/3, the rest complete
Golden Ages: Both Scientific

Ant: Himiko is terrific but I struggled to get Trade Routes to every leader - next time I'll take the IP bonus that extends trade route range. Ended the age with three alliances.
Exp: Chose Majapahit to try and get further through the civic trees which did happen but not that much further. I struggled to get alliances back and then when I had my first two, they declared war on each other so I was forced to drop one..... The AI warred a lot in this and I ended the age with just one alliance.
Modern: Got one alliance back on turn 2, used merchants and Improve Trade Relations to get a second alliance around turn 6, then a third on about turn 15 and a 4th on 21 (a bit late to help!).

Takeaways: Maya UQ is essential. Got a bit of bad luck with Exploration allies declaring war on each other but that can happen and more trade routes earlier would provide a bit of a back-up. Ended Modern with the diplo capstone repeated 13x but without a higher base Science (and/or more alliances earlier) it's difficult to lower the end turn. In other words, there's probably no speedier alternative to:

Just play himiko: maya --- Abbosda---Japan and game over

 

[Manpanzee]

I'm assuming the 14-turn Modern era wasn't a full-game speedrun. The settlement count and especially the walls everywhere suggest that more time was spent in earlier eras. You can definitely break Modern even more than it's already broken if you're willing to stay in the earlier ages longer and farm out as much growth and expansion as possible before pushing age progression buttons. Cool, but hard to compare.

 

[Salamis]

Finally went all in on the Scientific triumvirate of Maya > Abbasids > Japan and as suspected, it's unlikely any combination will go faster:

Continents+ Huge map, Standard speed, Deity (no customisation)
148 turns: 96 Antiquity, 40 Exploration, 12 Modern

Himiko (QoW) leading Maya --> Abbasids --> Japan
Mementos: Cultural + Diplo attributes, Scientific + Influence on Science buildings, Scientific + Diplo attributes

End city count by age: 5, 10, 5 (in Modern the 4th and 5th cities were converted on the penultimate turn for overbuilding to bulb a few Masteries to speed up the final two projects)
Legacy paths by age: Ant - Mil 2/3, rest complete; Exp - Economy 1/3, rest complete
Golden Ages: Both Scientific

The Maya UQ is crucial for completing the final projects in no more than 1 turn each. The Abbasids are crucial for the Science base rate (both UQ and Traditions). Japan is crucial for bulbing techs via overbuilding.

Completed Rocketry on t10. Japan's ability allowed for a few techs to be bulbed entirely by purchasing buildings as overbuilds. Oxford University gave one free tech on the path to Rocketry as well. Suzed two Scientific IP's on t11 and took the free tech first followed by 25% to projects. Bulbed a couple of Masteries by overbuilding purchases and harvested 2 Militaristic IP's to help complete the final projects.

Multiple alliances with the Diplo attribute repeatable were also essential (Himiko and a Huge map are very helpful): Renewed two alliances on t2, two more on t3, a fifth on t4 and a sixth on t7. The big, huge, monstrous, cratering caveat to this run is that Ant and Exp ages were completed before the 1.2.3 Update so each future tech/civic gave a Wildcard attribute rather than a random one. I began Modern with the Diplo capstone repeated 13 times but it would have been far fewer if played on the Update.

 

[Manpanzee]

Very nice! With the 10-turn age countdown becoming a part of standard settings, I’m guessing this one won’t be topped anytime soon.

 

[Bleidraner]

I am working on an Isabella game that so far is running faster with a t93 in Antiquity, (yes I have not yet given up on that) but I am completely certain that a monstruosity like a t12 modern is outside of my capabilities Also I am using the legacy branch to continue playing on 1.2.2 but not sure if I will able to finish before the next patch as I cannot play first half of August. @Salamis this run is pretty incredible, and likely unbeatable, congratulations.

 

[Salamis]

Very nice! With the 10-turn age countdown becoming a part of standard settings, I’m guessing this one won’t be topped anytime soon.

Thanks! The countdown can be disabled and I plan to play with it disabled. As well as the wildcard nerf, relationship decay might also affect how fast Scientific victories can go.

I am working on an Isabella game that so far is running faster with a t93 in Antiquity, (yes I have not yet given up on that) but I am completely certain that a monstruosity like a t12 modern is outside of my capabilities

That's very fast! I think Ant and Exp ages are the areas to target for going faster and rapid expansion is probably necessary. Following the update, Modern is going to be tough to go as fast because the Science rate needs as many diplo attribute buffs and alliances as possible. Overall I think it's a positive change as it probably provides a greater variety of approaches. Perhaps some hard warring in Antiquity to take well-developed settlements, concentrate on making alliances in Exploration and in Modern specialise most (every?) Town an Urban Center so you can buy the Science building. The projects are the kicker - as it stands you need a huge production buff and that means Maya UQ or Bulgaria Tradition.

 

[gatorsurgeon]

Great discussion. I just won my first game on Immortal. Continents plus and the largest map.
Started with Confucius and Maya. Finished the Science and Economic goals. Used economic golden age.
Played Incas in Exploration. This is best Civ (I think) for dependably getting to economic golden age for Modern, because all you need is one settlement in a distant land. If all your settlements from Antuiquity are cities, then the domestic treasure convoys put you over the top fast.
Maintained alliances with Augustus and Harriet for all ages .
Chose Japan for Modern. Here is where the econ golden age helped. By having all cities at the start of the age, I was able to quickly research Academics and Electricity and rush the construction of schoolhouses and labs all over the place. I quickly went from trailing the top civs in science to #1.
Got the spaceship launched in 1828.

 

[Willburn]

Did some attempts myself. I am finally SUB T200. A lot of learning in terms of lining up stuff so not waisting influence. I think in general influence is underrated in terms of getting faster science, both from a diplomacy standpoint in getting sufficient of it to get allies and in terms of accelerating production in terms of citystates with production bonus unique improvements. Atleast for me focusing on influene did the trick in getting me under that T200. Quite rusty in CIV so fun to have a goal to strive for and next is sub T180 that I think is within my current strategy reach as I did not play optimal. I think I can probably push under T90 on ancient and still come out strong into explorer age and then likely I can push sub t40 and modern sub t30 so thats my longer term goal to push sub T170. I also did not pick communism that gives +30% project production bonus and that could probably alone shave off 3+ turns in the modern age game. I agree that likely 3x science civs and focus on diplomacy / influence is probably some of the more optimal strategies currently but I just love playing Han as it has that tempo advantage early and I am wondering if some insain maps with isabella also can get you that tempo advantage to push sub t80 ancient games if combining han/isabella.