Fast Science Victory: Civ VII Edition

Went on a mission to see how well Ibn Battuta w/ Greece city state strategy could perform for fast science since it wasn't discussed. It took a few tries but I eventually got everything to align for my best Antiquity to date. I kept getting around 108-112 and struggled to get a 2nd civ elimination, and then on the 4th run got this 94. All the info in this and the latest GOTM thread was super helpful.

// Notes: Two civ eliminations, all 4 legacy paths, one future civic. First civ elimination was on turn 58.

Also a good reminder that trying to roll great starts is a trap because the map outside your starting view is so much more important -- this was a pretty innocuous looking spawn. Attaching save files if anyone wants to give it a try! I'll follow up w/ Exploration.
// Edit: Got 60 and 28 for 182 total turns -- def left some on the table as I'm not super familiar with how to min-max explo and modern, cheers!

Settings: Deity / Standard Speed / Large / Pangea Plus / Continuity / 10 turn timer

[Science] Ibn Battuta (Greece - 94)
Mementos: Shisa Necklace + Merchant's Saddle

Spoiler Spawn :

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Spoiler End of Era :
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Attachments

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// Edit: Got 60 and 28 for 182 total turns -- def left some on the table as I'm not super familiar with how to min-max explo and modern, cheers!
For Modern, you probably aren't missing anything major. 28 turns is a good result, and it's probably hard to do all that much faster without the Mayan UQ. Unfortunately, that thing is still a major outlier in brokenness, and trying to play without it is likely to cost 10+ turns in Modern.

I think you're probably right that any remaining room for significant improvement lies in pulling off a double civ-wipe in Antiquity. And you're right that the RNG for that isn't something that will be apparent right from the spawn. Basically, you want to get lucky with two nearby weak, unfriendly AIs that also have strong warmongering neighbors that hate them. In an absolute dream scenario, it seems plausible that you might be able to get Antiquity down to around 80 turns.

I also am coming around on ignoring the 10-turn countdown, whether it's designated as "standard" settings or not. That's a setting that was clearly implemented for the benefit of players who were being left with unfinished business because the AI was pushing age progress faster than they were. It's kind of a silly "feature" for players that are triggering age endings by actually finishing everything themselves.
 
Isabella, leading Maya, Abbasids and Meiji Japan. Deity, Standard speed, standard size Pangea+ map, Deity no customization, played on 1.2.2. t93 Antiquity, t40 Exploration, have not played Modern. All legacies in Antiquity, all legacies minus economic in Exploration (only got 1 economc point in Expl). Clearly a Huge map would help but I wanted to see what could be done at Standard size and Himiko is better but I wanted to see what Isabella could do.

I could try to play Modern on 1.2.3 as the legacy option allows me that, but cannot go back to 1.2.2 and I dont want a speedrun over 2 different updates. To make matters worse, I missplayed the last Exploration turn as I had to rush the last turn of Exploration which is a really important turn to set up overbuilding in Modern for the Japan ability (as you will finish all buildings in all cities every time you get a future tech, and I got 8-9 future techs in the last turn and a couple more on the previous one, 13 repeats of the Diplo cap and 4 repeats of the science cap). I wanted to get my Modern save in before the update so did not play it optimally.

Posting anyway as I got far enough to draw some conclusions, I played a few turns of Modern just to get a feeling of what it would look like.

Caveats, pretty huge.
- I rerolled the map until I got map where I discovered 2 NW in the first 10 turns.
- I replayed turns to my hearts content, not just reloding any mistakes but even worse I reloaded for optimal play. I would be unable to reproduce anything close to this result under GoTM rules.
- I tried to avoid civ wipes in Antiquity as I wanted to check if a peaceful run could be as fast as a warry one. I believe a peaceful run is faster or at least equally fast but whats more important peaceful sets the slingshot into Exploration and Modern much better.
- I played in 1.2.2 before age transitions etc. 1.2.2 is no longer available so cannot do Modern.

TL;DR, Himiko>Isabella for a complete game, but Isabella>Himiko in Antiquity and Exploration. The main issue is the diplo cap. If you check @Salamis game, he gets 13 diplo caps, same as me plus but I also have 5 science cap repeats. The difference is that he is able to have 6 alliances by t7 due to Himiko's ability, while I was only able to get 2 by t3. That's a killer and shows why Himiko is the optimal leader for fast science. I think there may be a strategy where I use the science cap which I could repeat 17-18 times I think, but the lack of diplo cap repeats would hit my money and production. Production would not be that much of a problem as I have 4 military IPs in the map, and that + bulbing some masteries through overbuilding will be enough to 1 turn the last three projects. But money is almost certainly an issue, as in this strategy you turn money into overbuilding production and that into science and you need tons of money. Culture, may also be a problem, you can get to Communism pretty fast but not sure whether i could get there in less than 15 turns.

I estimate I could have done Modern in 20 turns or so, maybe a little faster, but I can see I will not get close to the t12 Modern with Isabella to beat Salamis speedrun or even to t15 to tie. I may even still try to finish Modern for the learning experience, but I am a little disheartened by being caught by the update, I thought I would have 3-4 more days. I would also like to take a crack at the GoTM, and I am running out of time.

If I get time, I will expand this post to go deeper into strategy and tactics, and complete it with screenshots and saves, because I think in our write ups we tend to take a lot of knowledge for granted and that does not help as much the new players.

@Manpanzee thank you so much for starting this thread, I had a blast, I learned a lot from you and learned a ton with my Isabella experiment and reading all the contributors. @Salamis, your ever improving runs have been an inspiration. I hope you play the GoTM one of these days. Thank you also to all other contributors. All of your posts make this game a lot more fun to play.
 
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I've been trying a few different approaches without Maya. The idea has been to take turns off Antiquity and Exploration as the Modern finish will be slower without the Maya UQ.
I played a couple of games with Assyria to try to capture developed towns/cities (meaning those with large populations and ideally a few buildings) and get a few free Future Techs for attribute points. While this sort of worked, my culture rate suffered and captured settlements means you have a lower Influence rate and consequently can't suz as many IP's. This then slowed civic and IP acquisition in the Exploration Age too much. I used Xerxes KoK for one game and Ada for the other. A leader with Diplo bonuses might be better.

The benefit of capturing developed settlements (or gaining them in peace deals) was the main takeaway - it means I needed to build-up military far more than I have in the past.

Now got a new PB and the following is half report, half guide:

Pangea+ Huge map; Standard speed; update 1.2.4; Deity (no countdown clock, continuity, bypass Civ unocks enabled)
142 turns: 92 Antiquity, 36 Exploration, 14 Modern

Confucius leading Han --> Abbasids --> Japan
Mementos: Cultural + Diplo attributes, Diplo + Influence on Science Buildings, Diplo + Science attributes

End city count by age: 5, 11, 2
Legacy paths by age: Ant - all complete; Exp - Economy 0/3, rest complete
Golden Ages: Both Scientific

General approach: Expand as fast as possible (get 4 towns settled ASAP); pick one neighbour as target of war from around t60 onwards; suz a Cultural IP first then a Science IP and pick the free Civic/Tech bonuses; try to keep culture and science rates high (maybe suz another Cultural and/or Scientific IP to help with this but....); to get attribute points from free civics/techs, save Influence to suz as many IP's as possible, timed so they suz on the same turn at the end of the age (Note: in the 1.2.4 Update, when you hit 100%, there will still always be one more turn so some of the IP's can be suzed 1 turn later but you need to make sure to hit 100%!).

Leader/Civs:
Confucius:
Great for helping Towns grow quickly which is a benefit for gold generation, resource acquisition and cheaper conversion to cities (thanks to higher populations if left to grow). The Science on specialists isn't very relevant in Antiquity but becomes stronger as the game progresses.
Han: Extra pop is super for getting resources earlier. The Traditions are excellent for this approach (providing Influence on Happiness Buildings, Influence on Science Buildings, and 1 Science on Specialists) and the unique civics also give extra Influence. Great Wall: tricky. Reducing the population on completion is good for lowering the next population threshold but bad if you want to convert a town to a city as that will increased the cost of conversion. So either buy them (which is expensive) in Towns that you don't want to convert until conversion is a fixed 1,000g or build them in Cities once they're converted or some combination. I wanted as many as possible of them to buff the base culture rate in Exploration and ended up with 7 across the empire which didn't feel like much!!
Abbasids: Science, Science, Science Traditions plus gold from all the Specialists you place.
Japan: Gaining Science from overbuilding is key. No other civ can do this and it allows you to bulb techs which you're going to need to do get to Rocketry in as few turns as possible.

Map:
I want at least one resource which provides 2 or more production in range of the cap. If there isn't, I'll reroll the map (unless there's some astonishing alternative like a NW or lots of Gold resources - as was the case here!!), I think the production from t1 is that important.
My ideal map: 1 or more Cotton resources in the cap's area. For the first 4 Towns: Clay resources to drop in the cap as it develops, Game or Fish resources to drop in Towns, Gypsum for new cities; For the Cap and first 2-3 towns: Lots of Gold resources. Buying buildings is the vast majority of expenses and every gold resource provides massive savings.

More detailed approach:
Antiquity:

Government: The Culture/Wonder one
t1-20: Start with Scout then two more Scouts to find 1. goody huts; 2. neighbours; 3. IP locations; and 4. Gold Resources and Resources giving production. Prioritise Culture and Gold from goody huts. Culture for getting early civics ASAP (in this game I was first to get Mysticism so could have chosen Influence on the Alter but chose not to as Han's civics will provide a good amount - took Stone Circles (production on pits, quarries, mines) instead). Gold is for purchasing the first or second Settler. Try to get the first Settler built or bought by t15, the second by t20, third and fourth as soon as possible after but some buildings/units might be needed. Settle locations with production resources and Gold resources.
Neighbours: I nearly always offer the 20 Influence on first meeting. The exception is if it's already clear they are a very close neighbour and I know I'm going to want to go to war with them but that's tricky in the opening 1-20 turns. If a neighbour offers a Cultural endeavour, support it. Any other endeavour, just accept. Offer someone a Science endeavour if you can.

t21-50: Keep exploring with the Scouts. Consider researching Sailing reasonably early as there will be goody huts in the sea (!). Once the free commander is granted, take available military units (minimum 2) to go and take out an aggressive IP that might or might not be in a spot you want to settle. Doesn't matter which type, it's more to get the Maneuver and Movement after unpacking promotions. If possible, suz a cultural IP around t35-40 and take free civics bonus. If you suz too early, you it grants a cheap civic which is a shame. With the Han and diplo memento combo, the first suz gives a diplo attribute so now the cost of suzing drops from 170 to 114. Start befriending a Sci IP for free techs and another cultural IP for 1 culture on warehouses. Other civs don't tend to suz an IP before t60 in my experience so you'll likely have your choice of the bonuses.
Settling: Get the 4th and 5th settlements down ASAP. It doesn't matter too much if they go down a few turns before the respective settlement cap is at 4 or 5 but not too many turns as getting Celebrations is really important for increased +20% Culture and extra policy slots. If you've identified a neighbour for war, forward settle.
Towns: Use gold to start developing the Towns. Buy Granaries first to help them grow quicker, then the production warehouse buildings. Convert the first city when the conversion cost is at the minimum (200g). Hopefully this will be around t50 with the Han/Confucius combo.
Cap: The cap has lots to do which is why production resources are so important. Settler(s), Warehouse buildings, Alter, Monument, Library, military units and most importantly at this stage imo: Great Stele. With the recent buff it's a gold machine and will make the difference between how many GA Academies you can take into Exploration. It doesn't often get built by the ai until towards t50 but can come in much sooner. My rule of thumb is have it built by t47.

t51-60: Prep time for wars and wonders. The Oracle and Emile Bell with their attribute points are essential builds. Emile Bell unlocks later now but concentrate on unlocking the Oracle and building it. Your first city after the cap can contribute by building something like Gate of All Nations for war. By this point, it should be becoming clear who your friends and enemies are going to be. The ideal marker is someone close by denouncing you. They'll almost definitely declare war when the 10-turn action is complete so if you don't already have some, build a few military units when they denounce you. You don't need a huge army but on Deity, each enemy unit will need 3-4 hits to destroy. Ancient Walls on Town centres near their borders is advisable.
A couple of war tips for a small army:
a. If the ai moves their units to your border before their 10-turn denouncement has completed, denounce their military presence as soon as possible (make sure you're ready!) - they will declare war but you will get extra war support. The earlier you do it, the more support you will get.
b. Pack your commander with 4 units and have it ready nearby the first settlement you want to capture (ideally their capital). If it's got more than one set of walls, don't bother, find a softer target. The commander needs to have the Maneuver and Unpack promotions. Often the ai will move their army towards the settlement they want to capture from you and Walls plus 2-3 units can be enough to hold them off. Meanwhile, the ai will often leave their capital or other large settlement behind the lines unguarded. Swoop your commander in, unpack, and you'll usually by able to capture it that turn or 1 later.

t61-80: There will probably be lots going on! The most important thing is to identify when you can reasonably get the age to end while still acquiring at least 5 free techs or civics. I aim for t90 and see if that's possible or can be bettered. The determiner is the maximum number of IP's that can be suzed at the same time. Around t60 start befriending the aggressive IP's as it will take 30 turns and it's unlikely there will be lots of friendly IP's. Befriend friendly IP's around t75. Add influence where necessary. Keeping the culture and science rates as high as possible is important to get as close to the ends of the respective trees as possible.
Towns/cities: If there are good production resources to drop into a city, convert a second Town to a City. This could also be done earlier or later but should cost as little as possible, meaning: have all warehouse buildings already bought plus Alter. Consider specialising it to an Urban Center and buying Monument and/or Library if you have the gold. Remember that every conversion will also lose you a lot of gold per turn as all of a Town's production is converted into Gold.
Specialising Towns: My approach is to let a Town keep growing until it's acquired all useful resources, usually place a couple of farms to aid growth and then place mines/pits/cutters. With Confucius, they do grow quickly and you could justifiably let them keep growing throughout the age. At this point, I tend to specialise when the next growth event is going to take 10 turns. Specialisation choice is usually Mining for the extra gold.
War: Might have already started but if not, try to instigate one by t70. Hopefully you can capture one city and get another in a peace deal.
Wonders: Build them. With Great Stele each will give 200g and they'll add adjacency. Prioritise those with attribute points however Colossus, Maus.Theodoric and Hanging Gardens are really tough to get so probably avoid them for others. Any wonder that gives production should be built in the capital to aid space projects in Modern. The ai loves Petra but Pyramids might be viable.

t81-End age:
GA academies: Build/buy as many academies as possible for a Scientific GA in Exploration. This requires converting Towns to cities so only convert if you can put an academy in the city. If you can get the Mathematics tech in good time, build them in existing cities. It's fine to convert them on the final turn if necessary as that means you'll generate more gold until that point. Tip: If you suz a Scientific IP on the 100% turn, choose the bonus that gives % to building science buildings. It can mean the difference between needing to buy an academy rather than building it. I got 5 academies in this game.
Settlers: Use any existing ones to get 3/3 on the military legacy path, keep the rest for the next age.
Peace deals: It might be possible to swap low population/undeveloped Towns for better ones.
100% Turn to actual Final turn: Hopefully every city can finish something. If a city has completes something on the 100% turn then it will have one more turn of production. Even a smaller city should be able to build a scout and that scout will carry over to the next age! Tip: More importantly on the final turn, drop buildings (even if they can't be completed) on any farms in your cities and turn the population into a specialist on the academy.
Final Turn free civics/techs: It's a lottery what attribute points you'll get so the more free techs/civics the better. I got 7 in this game.

Exploration Age (not going to go into as much detail as Antiquity!):
Government: The culture one
Legacy points: Change the cap. Choose Science GA (2), Fealty which gives +2 Settlement limit but also the legacy (don't know the name) that gives minus 2 Settlement limit but +100% to befriending IP's. Take two diplo attributes, and consider 2 Economic attributes even if it means you don't use all of the economic points available (the aim is to get enough Economic attribute points to get the 15% reduction on purchasing). Should also be able to take 1 Scientific, Expansion and Cultural attribute point.
Suzing IP's: With Han's Influence Traditions, the legacy mentioned above, and the Influence memento, I was able to suz every IP (20) on the map by turn 36. Three (1 Scientific, 1 Cultural and 1 Economic) were suzed early in age to give free tech bonus, Culture on warehouse buildings and Gold on warehouse buildings. Two were suzed shortly before the 100% turn as I would have lost them to the ai otherwise. The rest on t35 or 36. Finished the tech tree on t35 so every suz was a free tech and so attribute point.
Town specialisations: Specialise all on t1 with the majority as Mining towns for gold,1 or 2 as Hub towns and maybe 1 or 2 as Urban Centers for purchasing the level 1 Science building.
Religion: Start with piety to get the first religion and choose 2 relics on IP conversion. 1 or 2 missionaries will be sufficient to get enough relics to complete the culture path. The second Theology civic is only needed just before settling your first town in distant lands but do it early enough to get the belief that makes towns in distant lands found with the religion in place. Six towns with this will complete the military path.
Civics/Science rate: The first two civics and the Theology civics mentioned above are important but getting the Abbasids' uniques is as well. The sooner the better for them as the buildings and Traditions they give are needed to start driving up the Science rate.
Towns/Cities/Science rate: End the age with as many cities as possible with a full UQ and University. In this game, I was able to convert and buy those three buildings in 5 cities on the final turn. The others were converted steadily throughout the age when gold allowed and they could build at a reasonable rate. Converting towns to cities a bit earlier has the advantage that is a few more buildings can be completed, they can be built over in the Modern age for bonus science from Japan's ability. It's a balancing act throughout the age. Again, the tip of placing buildings on farms (or other rural tiles) on the final turn will give you extra Specialists and loads of gold from the Abbasids ability.
Wonders: The one that gives a wildcard point is the priority. Tomb of Askia and Serpent Mound for production in the cap is useful. The one that gives gold for gaining relics is nice as is the one that gives an extra Settlement limit.
Alliances: Cultivate these throughout the age as they will carry over to Modern. Establish trade routes if possible but it might not be. Start endeavours.
Final turn: whatever gold leftover (or final turn production) is used to buy/build Merchants to carry them over to Modern.

Modern age:
Government: The Science one
Legacy points: Change cap back to Ant Age Cap. Science GA, 2 diplo points, 1 or 2 science points. The rest is less important.

t1(Alliances, Towns, Military IP’s, techs): Started with two Alliances in place and a Merchant gave a third straight away. Use Merchants, improve trade relations, open borders and endeavours to build relationships with other civs. I got a 4th alliance on t7 and 5th on t8.
Specialise every Town as an Urban Center.
Select Academics tech and purchase a building OVER an obsolete building. This will bulb Academics. Then purchase the Schoolhouse building over other obsolete buildings in the specialised towns. This bulbed the other two starting techs. Continue to use this approach to get through the tech tree (ignore masteries except the Electricity one) at 1 tech a turn with some others bulbed.
In the cap (assuming it’s the higher production city), build Oxford University. Hopefully it finishes by t6 and will give a free tech on the path.
Find every Military IP and immediately move units to them. If they’re on an island, buy ships from the nearest Town. Take out the unit in the Center as soon as possible and occupy the Center without clearing it - wait until the final space project is being built.

IP’s: Only really need one Scientific but befriended 2. One for the project bonus, one for Science on warehouses. Project one was suzed on t9.

Civics in priority order: Regular one for 2 Science on Specialists, Japan unique for 1 Sci/prod on Specialists, to ideology for Production on Specialists. Then second Japan unique to complete UQ.

Techs/projects: completed Fight on t5 and had the other city build the project. Aerodynamics on t9 and the cap built it in two turns. Rocketry on t11 and the cap took one turn for the first project and two for the second with - and this was lucky - 4 militaristic IP’s being harvested. Every single possible source of production was in the cap at this point.

Lucky elements:
- Weak neighbour who built: Lafayette leading Greece built the unique UQ in two of the settlements I captured.
- Friendly Cultural and Scientific IP’s relatively nearby in Antiquity saves turns befriending.
- Gold resources: Started with four around the capital.
- Military IP's: Four in range in Modern - that won't always happen.
- Cap had desert, navigable river tiles and some other river tiles so Pyramids and Tomb of Askia could be built to give production.

Overall:
Suzing as many IP's as possible in Ant and Exp to get Diplo attributes is the underlying strategy especially as attribute points are random. In this game, I got 0 diplo points from the 7 random ones at the end of Antiquity but at the end of Exploration 4 from 16. 4 from 23 is about par but it could easily distribute another way. How many diplo points could realistically be gathered? 3 from mementos, 4 from legacy selections, 1 as Han is Diplomatic, 4 from Wonders (Oracle, Emile Bell, Schwedagon, Oxford Uni) = 12. I also got 1 from a Narrative event (not sure what and haven't had that before) and those 4 from free techs so 17 in total meaning the Diplo capstone was repeated 13x when Oxford was put down.

Building alliances from Exp (or even Ant) onwards makes the diplo points return great yields and the sooner they can be formed the better. As Alliances now continue through age transition, starting base yields can be very good.
Build up production in the cap for the Space projects, as much as possible.

Next I'm going to try to maximise Influence use by going Himiko (QoW) leading Greece > Abbasids > Japan

EDIT: After posting this I saw 1.2.5 will drop next week - hopefully plenty will still be relevant :crazyeye:
Con Exp36.pngCon Mod14.pngCon Ant92.png
 
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I've been trying a few different approaches without Maya. The idea has been to take turns off Antiquity and Exploration as the Modern finish will be slower without the Maya UQ.
I played a couple of games with Assyria to try to capture developed towns/cities (meaning those with large populations and ideally a few buildings) and get a few free Future Techs for attribute points. While this sort of worked, my culture rate suffered and captured settlements means you have a lower Influence rate and consequently can't suz as many IP's. This then slowed civic and IP acquisition in the Exploration Age too much. I used Xerxes KoK for one game and Ada for the other. A leader with Diplo bonuses might be better.

The benefit of capturing developed settlements (or gaining them in peace deals) was the main takeaway - it means I needed to build-up military far more than I have in the past.

Now got a new PB and the following is half report, half guide:

Pangea+ Huge map; Standard speed; update 1.2.4; Deity (no countdown clock, continuity, bypass Civ unocks enabled)
142 turns: 92 Antiquity, 36 Exploration, 14 Modern

Confucius leading Han --> Abbasids --> Japan
Mementos: Cultural + Diplo attributes, Diplo + Influence on Science Buildings, Diplo + Science attributes

End city count by age: 5, 11, 2
Legacy paths by age: Ant - all complete; Exp - Economy 0/3, rest complete
Golden Ages: Both Scientific

General approach: Expand as fast as possible (get 4 towns settled ASAP); pick one neighbour as target of war from around t60 onwards; suz a Cultural IP first then a Science IP and pick the free Civic/Tech bonuses; try to keep culture and science rates high (maybe suz another Cultural and/or Scientific IP to help with this but....); to get attribute points from free civics/techs, save Influence to suz as many IP's as possible, timed so they suz on the same turn at the end of the age (Note: in the 1.2.4 Update, when you hit 100%, there will still always be one more turn so some of the IP's can be suzed 1 turn later but you need to make sure to hit 100%!).

Leader/Civs:
Confucius:
Great for helping Towns grow quickly which is a benefit for gold generation, resource acquisition and cheaper conversion to cities (thanks to higher populations if left to grow). The Science on specialists isn't very relevant in Antiquity but becomes stronger as the game progresses.
Han: Extra pop is super for getting resources earlier. The Traditions are excellent for this approach (providing Influence on Happiness Buildings, Influence on Science Buildings, and 1 Science on Specialists) and the unique civics also give extra Influence. Great Wall: tricky. Reducing the population on completion is good for lowering the next population threshold but bad if you want to convert a town to a city as that will increased the cost of conversion. So either buy them (which is expensive) in Towns that you don't want to convert until conversion is a fixed 1,000g or build them in Cities once they're converted or some combination. I wanted as many as possible of them to buff the base culture rate in Exploration and ended up with 7 across the empire which didn't feel like much!!
Abbasids: Science, Science, Science Traditions plus gold from all the Specialists you place.
Japan: Gaining Science from overbuilding is key. No other civ can do this and it allows you to bulb techs which you're going to need to do get to Rocketry in as few turns as possible.

Map:
I want at least one resource which provides 2 or more production in range of the cap. If there isn't, I'll reroll the map (unless there's some astonishing alternative like a NW or lots of Gold resources - as was the case here!!), I think the production from t1 is that important.
My ideal map: 1 or more Cotton resources in the cap's area. For the first 4 Towns: Clay resources to drop in the cap as it develops, Game or Fish resources to drop in Towns, Gypsum for new cities; For the Cap and first 2-3 towns: Lots of Gold resources. Buying buildings is the vast majority of expenses and every gold resource provides massive savings.

More detailed approach:
Antiquity:

Government: The Culture/Wonder one
t1-20: Start with Scout then two more Scouts to find 1. goody huts; 2. neighbours; 3. IP locations; and 4. Gold Resources and Resources giving production. Prioritise Culture and Gold from goody huts. Culture for getting early civics ASAP (in this game I was first to get Mysticism so could have chosen Influence on the Alter but chose not to as Han's civics will provide a good amount - took Stone Circles (production on pits, quarries, mines) instead). Gold is for purchasing the first or second Settler. Try to get the first Settler built or bought by t15, the second by t20, third and fourth as soon as possible after but some buildings/units might be needed. Settle locations with production resources and Gold resources.
Neighbours: I nearly always offer the 20 Influence on first meeting. The exception is if it's already clear they are a very close neighbour and I know I'm going to want to go to war with them but that's tricky in the opening 1-20 turns. If a neighbour offers a Cultural endeavour, support it. Any other endeavour, just accept. Offer someone a Science endeavour if you can.

t21-50: Keep exploring with the Scouts. Consider researching Sailing reasonably early as there will be goody huts in the sea (!). Once the free commander is granted, take available military units (minimum 2) to go and take out an aggressive IP that might or might not be in a spot you want to settle. Doesn't matter which type, it's more to get the Maneuver and Movement after unpacking promotions. If possible, suz a cultural IP around t35-40 and take free civics bonus. If you suz too early, you it grants a cheap civic which is a shame. With the Han and diplo memento combo, the first suz gives a diplo attribute so now the cost of suzing drops from 170 to 114. Start befriending a Sci IP for free techs and another cultural IP for 1 culture on warehouses. Other civs don't tend to suz an IP before t60 in my experience so you'll likely have your choice of the bonuses.
Settling: Get the 4th and 5th settlements down ASAP. It doesn't matter too much if they go down a few turns before the respective settlement cap is at 4 or 5 but not too many turns as getting Celebrations is really important for increased +20% Culture and extra policy slots. If you've identified a neighbour for war, forward settle.
Towns: Use gold to start developing the Towns. Buy Granaries first to help them grow quicker, then the production warehouse buildings. Convert the first city when the conversion cost is at the minimum (200g). Hopefully this will be around t50 with the Han/Confucius combo.
Cap: The cap has lots to do which is why production resources are so important. Settler(s), Warehouse buildings, Alter, Monument, Library, military units and most importantly at this stage imo: Great Stele. With the recent buff it's a gold machine and will make the difference between how many GA Academies you can take into Exploration. It doesn't often get built by the ai until towards t50 but can come in much sooner. My rule of thumb is have it built by t47.

t51-60: Prep time for wars and wonders. The Oracle and Emile Bell with their attribute points are essential builds. Emile Bell unlocks later now but concentrate on unlocking the Oracle and building it. Your first city after the cap can contribute by building something like Gate of All Nations for war. By this point, it should be becoming clear who your friends and enemies are going to be. The ideal marker is someone close by denouncing you. They'll almost definitely declare war when the 10-turn action is complete so if you don't already have some, build a few military units when they denounce you. You don't need a huge army but on Deity, each enemy unit will need 3-4 hits to destroy. Ancient Walls on Town centres near their borders is advisable.
A couple of war tips for a small army:
a. If the ai moves their units to your border before their 10-turn denouncement has completed, denounce their military presence as soon as possible (make sure you're ready!) - they will declare war but you will get extra war support. The earlier you do it, the more support you will get.
b. Pack your commander with 4 units and have it ready nearby the first settlement you want to capture (ideally their capital). If it's got more than one set of walls, don't bother, find a softer target. The commander needs to have the Maneuver and Unpack promotions. Often the ai will move their army towards the settlement they want to capture from you and Walls plus 2-3 units can be enough to hold them off. Meanwhile, the ai will often leave their capital or other large settlement behind the lines unguarded. Swoop your commander in, unpack, and you'll usually by able to capture it that turn or 1 later.

t61-80: There will probably be lots going on! The most important thing is to identify when you can reasonably get the age to end while still acquiring at least 5 free techs or civics. I aim for t90 and see if that's possible or can be bettered. The determiner is the maximum number of IP's that can be suzed at the same time. Around t60 start befriending the aggressive IP's as it will take 30 turns and it's unlikely there will be lots of friendly IP's. Befriend friendly IP's around t75. Add influence where necessary. Keeping the culture and science rates as high as possible is important to get as close to the ends of the respective trees as possible.
Towns/cities: If there are good production resources to drop into a city, convert a second Town to a City. This could also be done earlier or later but should cost as little as possible, meaning: have all warehouse buildings already bought plus Alter. Consider specialising it to an Urban Center and buying Monument and/or Library if you have the gold. Remember that every conversion will also lose you a lot of gold per turn as all of a Town's production is converted into Gold.
Specialising Towns: My approach is to let a Town keep growing until it's acquired all useful resources, usually place a couple of farms to aid growth and then place mines/pits/cutters. With Confucius, they do grow quickly and you could justifiably let them keep growing throughout the age. At this point, I tend to specialise when the next growth event is going to take 10 turns. Specialisation choice is usually Mining for the extra gold.
War: Might have already started but if not, try to instigate one by t70. Hopefully you can capture one city and get another in a peace deal.
Wonders: Build them. With Great Stele each will give 200g and they'll add adjacency. Prioritise those with attribute points however Colossus, Maus.Theodoric and Hanging Gardens are really tough to get so probably avoid them for others. Any wonder that gives production should be built in the capital to aid space projects in Modern. The ai loves Petra but Pyramids might be viable.

t81-End age:
GA academies: Build/buy as many academies as possible for a Scientific GA in Exploration. This requires converting Towns to cities so only convert if you can put an academy in the city. If you can get the Mathematics tech in good time, build them in existing cities. It's fine to convert them on the final turn if necessary as that means you'll generate more gold until that point. Tip: If you suz a Scientific IP on the 100% turn, choose the bonus that gives % to building science buildings. It can mean the difference between needing to buy an academy rather than building it. I got 5 academies in this game.
Settlers: Use any existing ones to get 3/3 on the military legacy path, keep the rest for the next age.
Peace deals: It might be possible to swap low population/undeveloped Towns for better ones.
100% Turn to actual Final turn: Hopefully every city can finish something. If a city has completes something on the 100% turn then it will have one more turn of production. Even a smaller city should be able to build a scout and that scout will carry over to the next age! Tip: More importantly on the final turn, drop buildings (even if they can't be completed) on any farms in your cities and turn the population into a specialist on the academy.
Final Turn free civics/techs: It's a lottery what attribute points you'll get so the more free techs/civics the better. I got 7 in this game.

Exploration Age (not going to go into as much detail as Antiquity!):
Government: The culture one
Legacy points: Change the cap. Choose Science GA (2), Fealty which gives +2 Settlement limit but also the legacy (don't know the name) that gives minus 2 Settlement limit but +100% to befriending IP's. Take two diplo attributes, and consider 2 Economic attributes even if it means you don't use all of the economic points available (the aim is to get enough Economic attribute points to get the 15% reduction on purchasing). Should also be able to take 1 Scientific, Expansion and Cultural attribute point.
Suzing IP's: With Han's Influence Traditions, the legacy mentioned above, and the Influence memento, I was able to suz every IP (20) on the map by turn 36. Three (1 Scientific, 1 Cultural and 1 Economic) were suzed early in age to give free tech bonus, Culture on warehouse buildings and Gold on warehouse buildings. Two were suzed shortly before the 100% turn as I would have lost them to the ai otherwise. The rest on t35 or 36. Finished the tech tree on t35 so every suz was a free tech and so attribute point.
Town specialisations: Specialise all on t1 with the majority as Mining towns for gold,1 or 2 as Hub towns and maybe 1 or 2 as Urban Centers for purchasing the level 1 Science building.
Religion: Start with piety to get the first religion and choose 2 relics on IP conversion. 1 or 2 missionaries will be sufficient to get enough relics to complete the culture path. The second Theology civic is only needed just before settling your first town in distant lands but do it early enough to get the belief that makes towns in distant lands found with the religion in place. Six towns with this will complete the military path.
Civics/Science rate: The first two civics and the Theology civics mentioned above are important but getting the Abbasids' uniques is as well. The sooner the better for them as the buildings and Traditions they give are needed to start driving up the Science rate.
Towns/Cities/Science rate: End the age with as many cities as possible with a full UQ and University. In this game, I was able to convert and buy those three buildings in 5 cities on the final turn. The others were converted steadily throughout the age when gold allowed and they could build at a reasonable rate. Converting towns to cities a bit earlier has the advantage that is a few more buildings can be completed, they can be built over in the Modern age for bonus science from Japan's ability. It's a balancing act throughout the age. Again, the tip of placing buildings on farms (or other rural tiles) on the final turn will give you extra Specialists and loads of gold from the Abbasids ability.
Wonders: The one that gives a wildcard point is the priority. Tomb of Askia and Serpent Mound for production in the cap is useful. The one that gives gold for gaining relics is nice as is the one that gives an extra Settlement limit.
Alliances: Cultivate these throughout the age as they will carry over to Modern. Establish trade routes if possible but it might not be. Start endeavours.
Final turn: whatever gold leftover (or final turn production) is used to buy/build Merchants to carry them over to Modern.

Modern age:
Government: The Science one
Legacy points: Change cap back to Ant Age Cap. Science GA, 2 diplo points, 1 or 2 science points. The rest is less important.

t1(Alliances, Towns, Military IP’s, techs): Started with two Alliances in place and a Merchant gave a third straight away. Use Merchants, improve trade relations, open borders and endeavours to build relationships with other civs. I got a 4th alliance on t7 and 5th on t8.
Specialise every Town as an Urban Center.
Select Academics tech and purchase a building OVER an obsolete building. This will bulb Academics. Then purchase the Schoolhouse building over other obsolete buildings in the specialised towns. This bulbed the other two starting techs. Continue to use this approach to get through the tech tree (ignore masteries except the Electricity one) at 1 tech a turn with some others bulbed.
In the cap (assuming it’s the higher production city), build Oxford University. Hopefully it finishes by t6 and will give a free tech on the path.
Find every Military IP and immediately move units to them. If they’re on an island, buy ships from the nearest Town. Take out the unit in the Center as soon as possible and occupy the Center without clearing it - wait until the final space project is being built.

IP’s: Only really need one Scientific but befriended 2. One for the project bonus, one for Science on warehouses. Project one was suzed on t9.

Civics in priority order: Regular one for 2 Science on Specialists, Japan unique for 1 Sci/prod on Specialists, to ideology for Production on Specialists. Then second Japan unique to complete UQ.

Techs/projects: completed Fight on t5 and had the other city build the project. Aerodynamics on t9 and the cap built it in two turns. Rocketry on t11 and the cap took one turn for the first project and two for the second with - and this was lucky - 4 militaristic IP’s being harvested. Every single possible source of production was in the cap at this point.

Lucky elements:
- Weak neighbour who built: Lafayette leading Greece built the unique UQ in two of the settlements I captured.
- Friendly Cultural and Scientific IP’s relatively nearby in Antiquity saves turns befriending.
- Gold resources: Started with four around the capital.
- Military IP's: Four in range in Modern - that won't always happen.
- Cap had desert, navigable river tiles and some other river tiles so Pyramids and Tomb of Askia could be built to give production.

Overall:
Suzing as many IP's as possible in Ant and Exp to get Diplo attributes is the underlying strategy especially as attribute points are random. In this game, I got 0 diplo points from the 7 random ones at the end of Antiquity but at the end of Exploration 4 from 16. 4 from 23 is about par but it could easily distribute another way. How many diplo points could realistically be gathered? 3 from mementos, 4 from legacy selections, 1 as Han is Diplomatic, 4 from Wonders (Oracle, Emile Bell, Schwedagon, Oxford Uni) = 12. I also got 1 from a Narrative event (not sure what and haven't had that before) and those 4 from free techs so 17 in total meaning the Diplo capstone was repeated 13x when Oxford was put down.

Building alliances from Exp (or even Ant) onwards makes the diplo points return great yields and the sooner they can be formed the better. As Alliances now continue through age transition, starting base yields can be very good.
Build up production in the cap for the Space projects, as much as possible.

Next I'm going to try to maximise Influence use by going Himiko (QoW) leading Greece > Abbasids > Japan

EDIT: After posting this I saw 1.2.5 will drop next week - hopefully plenty will still be relevant :crazyeye:
View attachment 743256View attachment 743255View attachment 743254
Wow really the best guide online for real.
 
Do you guys tend to stay above the settlement limit? If so, by how much/how long do make it work?

Especially early in the game, later it matters much less to squeeze out one, two or three extra settlements.

I haven't played the game a lot yet, but naively waiting for the limit to increase makes the game go too slow at least.
 
I think there are a few different factors to consider:
- For most of Antiquity every yield is low and so anything that negatively impacts those yields has a comparatively larger impact than later ages.
- Getting regular Celebrations gives a fixed yield bonus but also an extra Social Policy slot which is very beneficial because yields are low. Going over the limit slows how often you can get a Celebration.
- Going 1 (or even 2) over the limit can be fine from a yield perspective but if you're also warring and have negative war support, the yield penalty can really bite.
- The diplo attribute repeatable of 3% to all yields per alliance includes Happiness so the more of those you have, the more you can ignore the limit.

I tend to try not to exceed the limit by more than 1 (and often don’t exceed it at all) in the first 90% of Antiquity then go over it to complete the Military Legacy path. In Exploration, as long as alliances and diplo repeatables are in place, I’m happy to be up to 2 over the limit for the whole age. In Modern I’m generally not settling anymore so don’t get to the limit.
 
My rule of thumb for Antiquity is roughly:
One over the cap is basically fine. Two over isn't great, but is always manageable. Three over the cap may be a problem.
And then you can pretty much just add plus-one to each of those numbers for Exploration.

Probably I'm usually sitting at one over the limit for most of the middle part of Antiquity. If I end up further beyond that, it's because I saw opportunities to get settlements off the AI that I didn't want to pass up or delay.
 
@Salamis

This early part has me very confused:

to get attribute points from free civics/techs, save Influence to suz as many IP's as possible, timed so they suz on the same turn at the end of the age (Note: in the 1.2.4 Update, when you hit 100%, there will still always be one more turn so some of the IP's can be suzed 1 turn later but you need to make sure to hit 100%!).

Why would you want to hoard infuence and time your IP conversions so they happen at 100% age advance ? why not use your influence to suze IPs as soon as you have it ? I feel there's really something I don't get or know about that makes this strategy important, and I just don't get it. Thx
 
In addition, the reason it’s important to time them is to avoid the age ending. If you get 2-3 free future techs on turn x, you might not have time to wait for turn x+2 or 3 for more because the age ends quicker with future techs finished.

As many future techs as possible is key to amass attribute points.
 
You are getting the suzerain bonus that gives you a free tech (and in Antiquity, a free civic) each time you suzerain a new CS. It's always the cheapest tech you can research, so the later you wait, the more value you get from more expensive techs.

In addition, the reason it’s important to time them is to avoid the age ending. If you get 2-3 free future techs on turn x, you might not have time to wait for turn x+2 or 3 for more because the age ends quicker with future techs finished.

As many future techs as possible is key to amass attribute points.
ok thanks I get it now…

still you run the risk of AI suzing many of the already friendly IPs so there may not be as many left or they may cost more to suze…

but thanks for the explain… makes sense
 
When you hoard influence it is always possible to suzerain and spend again in the same turn if one of the IPs starts being influenced by an AI. But yes getting the timing right is tricky, especially in Antiquity. But for speedruns, essential. Always watch whats happening with the IPs and make the right decisions, considering the opportunity cost.
 
EDIT: After posting this I saw 1.2.5 will drop next week - hopefully plenty will still be relevant :crazyeye:
Having just watched the Devs Video on 1.2.5, ‘plenty’ still being relevant looks like being extremely optimistic!
- Getting rid of % attribute point buffs to yields. They specifically singled out the diplo capstone.
- Shots of the new IP’s showed e.g. Gain a new pop when you befriend an Expansionist IP including this one. Perhaps the free civic and free tech bonuses become tied to the type of IP as well.

These two changes would neuter the befriending IP strategy so if anyone wants to give it a go, turn off automatic updates!

Hopefully these changes will open the door to lots of different approaches.
 
The changes are seismic for this IP strategy. It's almost as if the devs have read through this thread and unpicked every component! A few initial thoughts:
- Attributes no longer give percentage increase to yields for alliances or capstone repeatables: the value of alliances and attributes is diminished.
- Gold/Silver resources no longer give percentage discounts so Gold is now less important to settle.
- Scientific/Cultural IP bonus now provides just one free tech/civic: this is the big one imo. Without multiple free techs, Exploration in particular will take a lot longer to complete. Befriending these IP types as early as possible for bonuses that increase the base science/culture rates might be the way to go now.

Antiquity might not be slowed all that much but wiping a civ might be needed. Assyria is comparatively more powerful now; their free techs from conquering are THE major source of free techs.
Wiping a civ or two might be necessary to finish Exploration in the fastest way. Despite their nerf, are Abbasids even more important now? Their Traditions could still be the greatest source of Science in the Modern age.
Interested to see how it plays out in Modern. Japan still the go to for free science from overbuilding. The % nerf to yields means production for the projects is going to be much lower so is the Maya UQ even more important than before?

Looking forward to it :)
 
Interesting new types of IPs, especially the expansionist ones with the food bonuses. Can you play tall? The update completely changes the snowball mechanics, the IP strategy no longer works. This will make exploration and modern longer for sure. I think the new update makes civ wipes inevitable for speedruns, not a fan of that as I like to play relatively peaceful. Anyway, it looks like it is back to the drawing board for strategy. Looking forward to this.
 
I have had a lot of similar thoughts:

--Civ-wiping is definitely back on the menu, and it's probably worth pushing double civ-wipes harder. I think Assyria is looking real interesting, and is probably the civ with the highest ceiling for pure Antiquity minimization, thanks to their ability to complete the scientific path via conquest.
--Assuming it wasn't stealth changed, the Maya UQ is probably better than ever. No more mega-pumping hammers via alliances. Pls nerf!
--Abbasids also probably still the best Exploration civ, but at least they're (finally) getting moved in the right direction.
--Pangaea map may be less obligatory now, thanks to lower payoffs from farming alliances and finding IPs early. Continents map gains some value if it's easier to get a tick or two of the Exploration Economic legacy path there.
--We will see how this actually changes the wide/tall meta. Three-city strats were already plenty good, and if this encourages "tall" play like it seems the devs want it to, that might not change so much. On the other hand, I see some factors pointing in the opposite direction, namely lower gold efficiency from purchasing and the possible need to invest more in scaling in the late game.
 
Just finished my first game on 1.2.5, using my old obsesion, Isabella, who I think is back in play after the changes to the meta and the death of the IP strategy, Himiko is no longer the queen:-). EDIT: This was Deity, Huge map all the rest Standard. I played quickly and carelessly, as I wanted to see and suzerain the new IPs more than anything else. I loved the expansionist (with the extra settlement limit and the food ones), did not find the diplomatic interesting at all. t105 Antiquity, 11legacies (everything except military, but I could have had that one too by just spawning a settler). Got one future tech, one future civic. One civ wipe, my neighbor Catherine, mostly unintended, I declared war because of an alliance and had a couple of Army Commanders fully loaded close to Rome, and my ally conquered the other city just before I conquered Rome.

This game would have been very likely a sub 90 pre-patch. Here is a screenshot:
Spoiler Screenshot :
Screenshot (236).png

Apologies for the popup partially obscuring my capital. As you can see my culture and science per turn are low compared to what we would usually get at t105, in spite of the fact that I have 3 NW in my empire, which is pretty insane with Isabella. This is due to the lack of stacking % bonuses. Bonuses now stack only in the IPs of the same type, and the new bonuses (happiness and food) do not offer comparable benefits as neither food or happiness really scale in the way that stacking %s did. Please note my 28 pop in the capital. I befriended a couple of food IPs and that helped quite a lot, specially the usually irrelevant little gift when you are "about to become suzerain" which in the case of the food IPs is a one migrant (so one pop). But high population, although nice, does not give the immediate benefits that stacking bonuses offer.

The other huge nerf is the fact that you only get one free tech/civic (which I did not choose, as I thought it was not very valuable) instead of one for every new IP you suzerain. In this game, that is 7 less techs and 6 less civics. Considering that I was 5 masteries short on science from completing the whole tree, and 2 masteries short on civics, I could have bulbed at least 2 more future techs and 4 more future civics (even if I dont count the extra science/culture you would get with the eliminated stacked %s). In this game the future tech and future civics I got were done the hard way. This is 6 attribute points less for exploration, plus the negative snowball effect of lower bonuses.

The point of this very boring post is to try to predict new turn benchmarks for Antiquity and Exploration. With an OP map and OP leader, t105 Antiquity (played not optimally, optimal would have been t100). But only one civ wipe. With a double wipe and better play, maybe t95 is possible in my opinion. For Exploration, our t50s with 12 legacies are a thing of the past and I think we are looking at t70s, with a double wipe in exploration.

Also it occurs to me that Confucius with the all Chinese combo could be interesting with the new meta.

I am going to play another game Antiquity only with Catherine to see whats what and then go for the GoTM.

PD: Maya UQ is still insane!
 
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Im still not as fast, but I noticed a similar timing shift in antiquity. From finishing around t100-110 the last two games before the patch, to t110-125, with Himiko and Maya.

I also had the same view on the city states. Expansionist is great, diplomatic pretty mediocre, all in all they are less valuable. I didn’t think influence was nearly as important as before. I’m leaning towards prioritizing a military and one or two expansionist ones first in my next game for the settlement limits. Tech/civic only useful towards the end.

I also find the AI is a bit more capable, both IP and civs are harder (but not always hard) to conquer
 
I also had the same view on the city states. Expansionist is great, diplomatic pretty mediocre, all in all they are less valuable. I didn’t think influence was nearly as important as before. I’m leaning towards prioritizing a military and one or two expansionist ones first in my next game for the settlement limits. Tech/civic only useful towards the end.

I also find the AI is a bit more capable, both IP and civs are harder (but not always hard) to conquer
Agree on the settlement limit. And the AI is definitely more capable, one example, instead of choosing crappy pantheons just because they are first in the list, they go Influence in Altars, God of the Sun, Stone Circles, the Science one etc. And that is pretty much the way a human would play, I have the feeling the dev team has hardcoded that order instead of making it situational, as that has been the order in every game I have played in the new patch (grand total of 2! :lol:).
 
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