Feudal Netherlands scenario : preview and help

[Zeekater]

County of Flanders:
capital: Gent(?)
Brugge
Knokke
Oostende
Nieuwpoort
Diksmuide
Veurne
Kortrijk ( Battle of the Golden Spurs in 1302)
Oudenaarde
Dendermonde
Sint Niklaas
Lokeren
Terneuzen
Ieper

I could add some more, but these are the most important.

Military leaders:
Pieter de Coninc
General Gerard Leman (WW1)
Since we really haven't had much wars in Belgium, it's kinda hard finding any great military leaders

Scientific leaders:
Leo Hendrik Baekeland ( invented plastic)
Victor d'Hondt ( mathematician)
Dirk Friemout ( first Belgian astronaut)
Frank de Winne ( Belgian cosmonaut)
Victor Horta (?) (architect)
Robert Cailliau (co-developed hypertext, WWW)
Scientific leaders are easier to find

So, the trait should be scientific

Unique units: Belgian resistor?

 

[MaisseArsouye]

Dank je.

For Flanders, what about Jan Breydel ? I think led the Golden Spurs ?

What about Mercator ? He lived in Dendermonde, I think. Is it ancient Flanders or Brabant ?

The belgian resistor would be perfect for the Golden Spurs

I wanted to make it a religious/commercant civ because Flanders seems to be proud of its catholic identity ( AVV VVK ).


I'm really glad to have someone to work with on it I really don't know much about those far, cold, wet countries north from Brussels

 

[Zeekater]

Dank je.

For Flanders, what about Jan Breydel ? I think led the Golden Spurs ?

The belgian resistor would be perfect for the Golden Spurs

Pieter the Coninc was the leader of the Golden Spurs, but Jan Breydel too, IIRC, but since I couldn't find much info on him on the net...

I'm really glad to have someone to work with on it I really don't know much about those far, cold, wet countries north from Brussels

For info on those far cold and wet counties north from Brussels you're gonna have to find someone else, I don't know anything about Holland

 

[MaisseArsouye]

Pieter the Coninc was the leader of the Golden Spurs, but Jan Breydel too, IIRC, but since I couldn't find much info on him on the net...

I know Jan Breydel because of "Jan Breydel Stadion" in Brugge BTW, I'll add both of them.

For info on those far cold and wet counties north from Brussels you're gonna have to find someone else, I don't know anything about Holland

If you can still help me for Brabant, that would be great

That would be nice if AVN, Stapel or somebody else could help then. Beste nederlande vrienden..

 

[Zeekater]

Brabant is actually a large part of Holland too

City list:

Antwerpen
Leuven
Brussel
Mechelen
Aarschot
Halle
Diest
Breda
Tilburg
Turnhout
Herentals
's-Hertogenbosch (?)

Comment: the map that was posted doesn't have any cities on it, so it's kinda hard to find reference on the edges of the counties, so some cities might belong to another county if they lie to close to an edge.

Military leaders:
most Dutch military leaders are naval leaders, and none of those were born in Brabant it seems and I couldn't really find anyone else.

Scientific leaders:
Kinda hard to find any that were born specifically in Brabant...

Traits:
Industrial!
They had quite some industry

 

[Zeekater]

Question:

Utrecht for example is actually just one big city, and the rest are small insignificant, how should a 'city' list be done then?
There are other examples too.

 

[MaisseArsouye]

About Brabant :

Ernest Solvay was born in Rebecq ( Brabant Wallon ). Rubens ( Antwerpen ) could also be a scientific leader. So, I have allready two

I think that civ should be industrious and agricultural.

About single city civs :

The city where I live ( Gembloux ) is a single-city civ in the mod. As a city list, I took names of small villages around that were under control of the Aboot-Count of Gembloux.

I think it should be the same for Tournai, Cambrai or Mechelen.

It seems to me that Utrecht controlled more than just some villages. It even had an acces to the Zuiderzee. But for this, I'll try to draft some dutchmen


I found lot of informations on that site
http://www.califice.net/belge/themes.shtml#21

My lists are complete for Flanders, Brabant, Liège, Hainaut, Tournai, Namur and Gembloux. Luxembourg should be complete soon.

 

[Sengir]

Question before i start digging up my books: do you want to use the original names of the cities (i.e. the citynames of the 12th century) or the names used nowadays?

 

[MaisseArsouye]

Original names are better. But if they're too difficult to find, nowadays ones will be allright

 

[Sengir]

Actually, Utrecht wouldn't be a one-city civ, it was actually kinda large around 1200. Gelre (Gelderland) was bigger than it is nowadays to (it bigger than in your preview in post #1 for that account). Think i better post a map, or nobody will believe, or know what i'm talking about
(note that Nedersticht and Oversticht form together the Bishopric Utrecht)

 

[MaisseArsouye]

Your map is interesting, especially for the coasts ! I think I could change my map to have middle-age coasts instead of nowadays.

Only Three civs will be limited to one city : Tournai, Gembloux and Mechelen. Stavelot, Lille and Cambrai will have two cities. BTW, for borders between civs please try to stick to the map I posted. Borders changed a lot with centuries. Countries appear and some other disappeared. So, we must have a unique reference if you don't want I ggo creazy making that mod

And, after a first testing, I decided that France, Germany and England would not be available for human player... TOO EASY !!!

 

[Sengir]

Assuming you'll put Utrecht in:
Utrecht (cap)
Amersfoort
Kampen
Coevorden
Groningen
Zwolle
Oldenzaal
Deventer
Windesheim

Gelre:
Arnhem (cap)
Zutphen
Roermond
Venlo
Nijmegen
Tiel
Heerewaarden
Doesburg
Doetinchem
Harderwijk
Elburg
Heeckeren
Bronkhorst
Geldern

Friesland:
Leeuwarden (cap)
Stavoren
Alkmaar
Dokkum

Holland:
's-Gravenhage (cap)
Hoorn
Egmond
Haarlem
Amsterdam
Leiden
Delft
's-Gravenzande
Gouda
Vlaardingen
Brielle
Zierikzee
Rotterdam
Schiedam
Dordrecht
Zaltbommel
Muiden
Borssele

(Zealand doesn't really exist in 1200, it's split between Holland and Vlaanderen untill ca. 1400 i guess)
It's kinda hard to find the names they used in the middle-ages, because they didn't use uniform names, for example: lille is known as Lille, Insula and Rijssel, so i think it's best to use modern names
Btw the map i posted is supposed to show the Netherlands about 1100, but the borders fluctuated quite a lot in those days, so it is absolutely not accurate

 

[MaisseArsouye]

THANK YOU !!!!

(Zealand doesn't really exist in 1200, it's split between Holland and Vlaanderen untill ca. 1400 i guess)

You're right, I had to mix up a few to make the game more interesting This way, I have EVERY possible civs. If somebody wants to focus on a precise year, he can change the owner of cities, as spliting cities of Zealand between Holland and Vlaanderen.

 

[Sengir]

looks like our posts crossed
If you want to use Zealand: it shouldn't be too hard to take some cities from holland and Flanders on the posted map, and give them to Zealand (it are the ones on the islands )
If you wan't the map to be accurate, i think you should enlarge Gelre (Gueldres) and add Utrecht (which was pretty important back then, but i already said that, didn't I )
If you don't: well just say, and i'll give the list for 'small' Gelre (hey it's your mod )

 

[Sengir]

Damn i hate it when two people post at the same time, especially when one of them is me

 

[MaisseArsouye]

I'd like Utrecht and Drenthe to be small civs ( 4-5 cities ) and Gelre ( is this the dutch name ? ) to be a medium civ ( 8-9 cities ). Overijssel and Groningen should be medium-small civs ( 6-7 cities ).

I allready played the mod a couple of times, testing different civs. After England, Germany and France, the three most powerfull civs should be Liège, Holland and Brabant. Flanders, Hainaut and Luxembourg should be just under. Namur, in the center, will be small but with some well protected fortresses ( as it really was ). In the north, Friesland, Groningen, Gelre and Overijssel should be quite equal. That would give the game a good balance.

If you can find me leader lists ( scientific and/or military ) for dutch civs, that would be great.

 

[Sengir]

If you're going to use Drenthe and Overijssel, the map should be dated at 1500 (but then again, Utrecht didn't quite hold them as firm as they wanted, so i wouldn't bother too much about it). It shouldn't be too hard to find the cities, i've listed them with Utrecht before, so i think i can find them again
It will be a problem to find cities for Groningen, because it had only one city, maybe you should consider it as one city civ, but i'll try to find some names anyway.

About the leaders, i think i should be able to find some decent military leaders (or some counts and other rulers that will go for one) but the scientific leaders will be a problem, they weren't very scientific

 

[Sengir]

Okay second try:
Utrecht:
Utrecht (cap)
Amersfoort
IJselstein
Nijkerk (harbor at zuiderzee)
Montfoort

Gelre (Dutch name indeed):
Arnhem (cap)
Zutphen
Nijmegen
Doesburg
Doetinchem
Harderwijk (harbor at zuiderzee)
Elburg (harbor at zuiderzee)
Heeckeren
Bronkhorst

Overijssel:
Zwolle (cap)
Deventer
Oldenzaal
Kampen (harbor at zuiderzee)
Windesheim
Enschede
Almelo
Raalte

Drenthe:
Assen (cap)
Coevorden
Emmen
Hoogeveen

Zeeland:
Middelburg (cap)
Vlissingen
Zierikzee
Brielle
Goes
Borssele

Friesland:
Leeuwarden (cap)
Stavoren
Dokkum
Franeker
Heerenveen
Drachten
Harlingen
(and any cities you want on the northern islands)
(drop Alkmaar since it's in Holland in your map)

Holland:
's-Gravenhage (cap)
Hoorn
Egmond
Haarlem
Amsterdam
Leiden
Delft
's-Gravenzande
Gouda
Vlaardingen
Rotterdam
Schiedam
Dordrecht
Alkmaar
Muiden

Groningen:
Groningen (cap)
Veendam
Winschoten
Hoogezand
Sappemeer
Appingedam

That should be it
Btw do you want to put Maastricht with Liege/Luik or with Limburg?

 

[MaisseArsouye]

Maastricht is with Limbourg and Maaseik is with Liège. All of vlaamse Limburg ( Hasselt, Sint-Truiden, Tongeren ) belongs to Principalty of Liège.

I'll post a 0.1 version soon so that you ( and other people who want to help ) can see the map. Because I'm sure I made mistakes in placing dutch cities I also have some problems with french cities, but I think I'll may fix it alone. That 0.1 version will allready include
- complete biq with city lists, leaders, traits,...
- flag leaderheads
- Benelux cities pack ( quite done )
- Benelux terrain buildings

I hope it will be done in a week.

 

[MaisseArsouye]

I had another idea : POLDERS !

Some terrain that is now land but was see in middle-age would be marsh in my mod. That terrain would be totally useless and uncrossable, except for workers ( I'll try to deal with that ).

In tech tree : eolian energy + hydraulic -> polderization

When a civ discovers polderization, workers can change marsh to grasslands. So, dutchmen can really win terrain on the sea.