Final verdict? Black terrain = new graphics card?
- Thread starter rgndvo
- Start date
My problem is the same as others are saying. I have a laptop that is not upgradable or not easily upgradable if it is. I started this thread cause some people seem to say they can fix it without new equipment and some say that there is no fix and you must buy new equipment. Im a little leary of buying a new laptop anyways as my 6 month old desktop is showing black terrain as well.
Anyways, thanks for the help everyone, again. I realize it's difficult handling a wave of people who are frustrated and dont like the answer you have to offer.
Anyways, thanks for the help everyone, again. I realize it's difficult handling a wave of people who are frustrated and dont like the answer you have to offer.
I'm sorry, but I call BS.
First of all, many people WITH hardware T&L - me included - have this problem.
Second, people who have this problem CAN RUN THE GAME JUST FINE with some of the scenarios (like me). Considering that it is exactly the same game, the problem appears to be related to the scenario coding, not the ability of the card to present the terrain.
Third, some people who play WITH black terrain, over time are able to see the terrain. Their card IS ABLE to show it, just not out the door, for some odd reason that is (I think it's obvious) related to the GAME CODE.
Fourth, there are enough reports of people playing the game just fine, using THE EXACT SAME CARD that some other people are using that are facing the black terrain problem. Or is the claim now that this is an issue of the batch of cards manufactured or something?
Fifth, virtually ALL the cards that are able to play the game but facing the black terrain problem CAN render the terrain just fine in world builder, as well as some scenarios as mentioned above. Some are also reporting good results in smaller maps (memory limitation I presume).
Sixth, at least some people have done a serious analysis of this situation and PROVEN that there is a map centering issue. Essentially, by sending a scout to the map center and exploring there, THEIR area of the map is being rendered appropriately (rather than the map center). That's a bug if I've ever seen one.
Seventh, there have been at least two independent reports (on Apolyton) from beta testers that a certain feature related to map centering has been added to the game at the last moment, and was not properly regression tested. Considering point six, above, this indicates that something may have slipped through QA.
All of these things put together indicate that this is NOT a "hardware T&L issue" (because that would produce a binary result), but rather an issue with buggy code hitting limitations in certain older graphics chipsets. Maybe some constraints resulting from rendering capabilities and memory. That's why they don't show on newer cards - those have enough "horse power" to handle the buggy code. But it would appear that if said portion of code is fixed, at least a number of people (like me) who are having this problem will be able to play the game at lower settings.
Also, I have just noticed that the tech XML file has an option called bmapcentering. I don't have the ability to test it right now, but I am curious if by turning that one from 0 to 1 (as we did with the bmapvisible) in the file will solve this problem. Can anyone check it out?
Okay, I finally got this game installed and that was a chore. Now, when I play I get the Black Screen of Death that I now find many others are experiencing as well. I've cruised the boards here a bit looking for some answers. This sticky was really helpful: TnL get your facts straight (chart included)
This is very close to the card I have. I beleive its a nVidia GeForce4 440 Go, I'm assuming that the difference between my Go and the MX is the fact that my card is for a laptop. I have a Dell Inspiron 8200 laptop (P4 1.6, 512 RAM, 64 meg card and plenty of room on my HD), so upgrading my card isn't really an option (as far as I know). I dl'd new drivers for this card from Dell last night and still get the black screen. I'm at work at the moment and don't have access to my laptop so I can't be more specific. Is there a better place to find drivers? I know my laptop is getting old now and I plan on getting a new desktop in the next few months but it would be nice to be able to play this game in the meantime. Any advice?
TheBarnacle
Chieftain
- Joined
- Oct 27, 2005
- Messages
- 92
lightnng said:
i believe if you press these folks, they'll tell you the graphics STILL are not 100% properly rendered. there was at least one account of that anyway. that is, the 'creeping visibility' that starts in one corner still does not illustrate the terrain very well.
i will agree with you that something "slipped" by QA. considering the range of problems, hard to believe they didn't know it.
maartena
Warlord
aceshigh said:
The Video Card he has is not bad at all indeed. However, just like the Intel Extreme Graphics who also are not bad cards to begin with, they lack one major component to play Civilization properly: Hardware T&L built in the graphics engine.
Now I don't know why this was removed on so many laptop cards (there are still a good many laptops out there that do have hardware T&L), but it may have something to do with the power it consumes and the fact that hardware T&L does address a little bit of normal CPU power as well to do its job properly, and CPU power = electricity = battery draining, and that may just be the reasoning behind this. I am not sure about that though as there are Intel Graphics in desktops as well.
A patch will be hard to do. There are som fixes and workarounds that have been posted on the board, but it is essentially cheating, and you would never be able to multiplay on the Internet because you would have to launch the world builder and make all tiles visible.
Hardware T&L support was built in the graphics engine, and its going to take quite some time and money to develop a true non T&L support graphics engine as well, and from that point forward they would have to support two environments.
I think the only real solution for people that cannot play now, is to upgrade their hardware. A patch is not going to magically add support for non-T&L clients I am afraid.
maartena
Warlord
PJG said:
I can confirm that the Geforce 4 MX 420 with 64 Mb works right out-of-the box. It is what my second computer has. It doesn't run too fast, but using 1024x768 and all details set to LOW it works allright.
I can also confirm that the game does NOT work on my laptop, but my laptop has a 8xx series Intel Graphics set, so that did not surprise me.
As for the Geforce 4 440 Go, it seems like it supports hardware T&L so it should run the game. However, I did find this on the web also:
nVidia GeForce4 Go (NV17M) Mobile GPU was announced on November 12th, with availability expected towards the end of June 2002 (see the release Roadmap entry). The NV17M is the successor to nVidia's GeForce2 Go Mobile GPU and is based around a modified version of the GeForce3 core with additional power saving features and, optionally, on-package DDR SDRAM. NV17 is built on a 0.13micron process and will run at a maximum clock speed of 220Mhz, with the clock speed being adjustable to fulfil power saving requirements. The core features 2 pixel pipelines with 2 texture units per pipeline, giving a maximum fillrate of 440MPixels/s and 880Mtexel/s. The core also features better DVD hardware decoding then both the GeForce3 and Radeon (handling both iDCT and IQ processing as well as Motion compensation & Colour space conversion) and has TV-Out, CRT and DVI support with a 350Mhz RAMDAC. The Transformation & Lighting engine is at the GeForce2 level (i.e. it doesn't support vertex shaders) although it does contain the hardware FSAA and the LightSpeed memory architecture of the GeForce3 GPU.
I do not know in what wat Civ 4 uses Vertex Shaders and whether it causes a problem for the game to run.
Final Verdict for me: Runs on 2 out of 3 machines.
ronlancaster23
Chieftain
PJG said:
Don't despair, I have exactly the same laptop and video card as you. Initially, i had the black terrain problem, then I tried installing a beta version of the nVidia 82.10 drivers from guru3d.com and now the game plays beautifully (albeit at low quality settings). You can try the driver yourself:
http://downloads.guru3d.com/download.php?det=1227
Good luck!
Citizen Philip
Chieftain
- Joined
- Nov 1, 2005
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- 41
As someone who works in Computer Game Technical Support (not developing or programming), I'll put it very short: If you are not using a video card with T&L: check the return policy and keep your proof of payment.
T&L support has been a problem with low end video cards for years, now that Dell/HP/etc are pushing their systems in any market they can, combined with badly trained/ignorant/lying sales staff, people are under the impression their computer can run games.
Your system cannot run games. Unless your chipset maker decides to write the support for a specific game into a new version update you are SoL.
You are going to have to deal with this reality. You bought a computer without doing the research yourself (or pretended you weren't going to play games) or were directly lied to by someone in the position to sell you the system.
If you are going to play games, invest in a decent video card. Technical support is not going to help you if you don't have a VC because you don't meet the specs. You will be turned away. Getting mad at a publisher/developer because your system doesn't meet specs isn't their fault. They post the requirements on the BOX, what else do you want them to do?
Caveat Empor. Arm yourself with knowledge before you make any large purchase.
Now, someone who does meet the specs, has updated drivers and is running in a clean boot mode: THAT is a problem that needs to be addressed. If you don't have a video card and you get the game working, at least partially, consider yourself lucky: and be ready to accept that it may stop working.
If you don't like it, tell the Electornics stores to stop selling computers with Intergrated Graphics as fully functional home/gaming systems, because they aren't. Or, do the research yourself and be empowered.
T&L support has been a problem with low end video cards for years, now that Dell/HP/etc are pushing their systems in any market they can, combined with badly trained/ignorant/lying sales staff, people are under the impression their computer can run games.
Your system cannot run games. Unless your chipset maker decides to write the support for a specific game into a new version update you are SoL.
You are going to have to deal with this reality. You bought a computer without doing the research yourself (or pretended you weren't going to play games) or were directly lied to by someone in the position to sell you the system.
If you are going to play games, invest in a decent video card. Technical support is not going to help you if you don't have a VC because you don't meet the specs. You will be turned away. Getting mad at a publisher/developer because your system doesn't meet specs isn't their fault. They post the requirements on the BOX, what else do you want them to do?
Caveat Empor. Arm yourself with knowledge before you make any large purchase.
Now, someone who does meet the specs, has updated drivers and is running in a clean boot mode: THAT is a problem that needs to be addressed. If you don't have a video card and you get the game working, at least partially, consider yourself lucky: and be ready to accept that it may stop working.
If you don't like it, tell the Electornics stores to stop selling computers with Intergrated Graphics as fully functional home/gaming systems, because they aren't. Or, do the research yourself and be empowered.
randallman
Chieftain
- Joined
- Jan 11, 2002
- Messages
- 68
Again, the point is - Civilization has never been about eye candy and 3d graphics. Civ3 was out well into the DirectX/OpenGL revolution for games, and it dod not require any of this. Most of us were very satisfied with the 2d graphics that Civ3 had to offer. Many of the people complaining about these T&L based issues are not the kind of people that play ANY other games that require hardware T&L. The piece you seem to really miss is that these kind of people do not want to go spend 1k to 2k for a new laptop that does have a magic hardware T&L video card. Granted, for the desktop system complains - go drop $100.00 on a new card and STFU. Its the mobility user implications that has me most bothered by this.
Yes, caveat emptor - let the buyer beware, but also bear in mind most of these laptop systems were bought either by WORK to do WORK or by the individual to do WORK and the player just wants to be able to blow some steam off with a game that *shouldnt* be very hardware 3d graphics intensive.
Yes, caveat emptor - let the buyer beware, but also bear in mind most of these laptop systems were bought either by WORK to do WORK or by the individual to do WORK and the player just wants to be able to blow some steam off with a game that *shouldnt* be very hardware 3d graphics intensive.
Citizen Philip said:
Alright I have a Radeon 7500 and am experiencing the black terren and the missing faces. Don't really care about the face but I would like the ground to show up. Anyway I can fix it otherwise I get off of work in about an hour and I will go and get a new graphics card. Any suggustions on how to fix it or is a new card needed.
Thanks
Thanks
Citizen Philip
Chieftain
- Joined
- Nov 1, 2005
- Messages
- 41
randallman said:
Civ 3 continues to work perfectly fine, and I enjoy playing Alpha Centauri. I would like to play Doom 3 and Half-life 2 on a high graphics level but I cannot, because my system is not capable of it: I play it on low rez and settings and slowly put away my money for a better system.
3D graphics is an old technology, it is approaching a decade of 'common' gaming usage for the PC, it has been no secret. Your demographic of "don't need my 3d" is virtually gone, the specific game requirements indicate that limiting the graphics so you can play was an unwise business choice; you are a vocal minority.
There are two basic groups: those who don't 'need' graphics and those who have a system that does not meet the requirements, but would otherwise enjoy the game. You can be in both groups at the same time.
If you want to blow steam and enjoy a game, play an old game: They work, they can be great fun and until Windows Vista comes out, they will probably continue to work. But don't accuse a company of abandoning you or shodding programming/support if you choose not to move with the times.
Ybother said:
I didn't mean to sound insensitive about your situation, honestly I feel for you. But there's just so many people who just refuse to accept that's it's because of their hardware and go off screaming and yelling at Firaxis. If anyone's at fault here, it's the laptop manufacturers who are putting such crappy video cards into their machines.
Culhwch said:
Get a new video card. You can get it to work by turning off your ARP acceleration, but your game is going to run very slowly. If you have no problem with spending a few bucks on a new card, do so. The recommended is a 9800, so the 7500 is a few generations off prime performance for the game.
randallman said:
Whether people need 3D graphics or not, the industry as a whole is moving in that direction. For one thing, it's easier and cheaper for them to produce a game in 3D. And, with many console games displaying near video quality graphics, they have some pretty high standards that they have to live up to. Now you can either move with the trend and accept the change, or you can keep playing Civ 3 forever and ever. Because that's going to be one of the last games you're going to see that doesn't use the technology.
Even the movie industry is moving in that direction. Disney just recently closed it's last studio that was still doing 2D animations, because it's no longer cost effective for them to work in that media. 3D is the future, whether you wish to accept it or not.
