finally got to play

[daladinn]

finally got to play teh new FFH and i dont know what to think...

as far as concept and i "think" possible storyline i would give it 5 stars , however as for implementation i would be hard pressed to give it 1 star. as a SOLID fan of keal and company for everything they do , however at this point (been around for a while now) certain things shoudl not exist as issues.

the types of things i am talking about is simple pedia entries. almost nothing can be found and looked up. there is still no entry for the pyre zombies. i could not find any reference to snake totems other then the bonus amounts. the lack of pedia entries for the new great people ( i fell into that trap trying to build the veil great building).

the list jsut goes on and on, these are things that make in insanely hard for a new player to learn and even us veterans have severe issues with learning curves when the only way to find an answer is to playtest and playtest and playtest. now i have no problem being a playtester .

if you need help writing pedia entries that you can cut and paste is am positive that many of us here would love to help , but i really had to see a brilliant mod fall apart do to the simple details.

please .... please .... what can be done?

 

[Kael]

Its not a problem in writing the pedia entries. The problem is if we write them they become invalid when we change stuff. Then we go from not having an entry to having spent time documenting only to have the wrong information.

So for now we have to get the game working like we want, then we document.

I am curious to hear what the most confusing aspects are. Its hard for me to judge since I take a lot of it for granted.

Pyre Zombies do have the following in their strategy tag: "Use Pyre Zombies as expendible front line troops. They are as strong as Axemen, but when they are killed they explode, damaging all units (enemy and friendly) within a tile of the zombie." But they do need a pedia entry as well.

Outside of just filling in the missing pedia entries, what are the big things that need explained better?

 

[daladinn]

how and where do snake totems come from? which great people make which buildings? 4 horsemen , do we start this or is part of the countdown?

 

[Nikis-Knight]

I think part of your problem in particular is that the v .20 changes were removed from the changelog when v .21 was put together, so you probably didn't see some of these if you went from v .16 or below straight to v.21.
Including that Stigmata (AV shrine) is built by Great Sages, and Song of Autumn (FoL shrine) is built by Great Bards.
Additionally, several effects trigger when the Armeggeddon counter (number in upper left corner) hits certain levels; the 4 horsemen arrive between 60 and 70.
the
The ways to change the counter are documented in the Wiki; the most common are by spreading Ashen Veil or razing cities.
Hell terrain spreads over normal terrrain when the Infernals found or capture a city. If certain resources end up on hell terrain, they will change, to snake totems. Shuet stones and frogs are also new hell resources.

I realize your reason for pointing this out is to get the info in game, but I'm answering you here as well. After a couple more version we'll give the civ pedia another look over.

 

[monolith94]

And then the avatar of wrath comes!!! Even mithril upgraded stoneskin ogres won't save you, I found!

Jeeesh, the only thing I could do was try to crank out Messhaber of Dis to counter...

 

[daladinn]

thank you nikis , i wondered about alot of it since i typically play shiam and go for the viel , all hell was thrown off with no idea waht teh hell was going on .... puns intended

 

[daladinn]

oh , forgot to ask , what about changes to lanun or calvary?

 

[AlazkanAssassin]

oh , forgot to ask , what about changes to lanun or calvary?

The Lanun have received a new UU the War Tortise.
And Calvary is still the place where Jesus died.

Unless you really meant Cavalry; some of them now use the ore model; and some have differing attack and defence strenghts.

 

[Bad Player]

Its not a problem in writing the pedia entries. The problem is if we write them they become invalid when we change stuff. Then we go from not having an entry to having spent time documenting only to have the wrong information.

So for now we have to get the game working like we want, then we document.

I am curious to hear what the most confusing aspects are. Its hard for me to judge since I take a lot of it for granted.

Pyre Zombies do have the following in their strategy tag: "Use Pyre Zombies as expendible front line troops. They are as strong as Axemen, but when they are killed they explode, damaging all units (enemy and friendly) within a tile of the zombie." But they do need a pedia entry as well.

Outside of just filling in the missing pedia entries, what are the big things that need explained better?

Snake totems - what makes them appear, how do you improve them, what do they do apart from providing +1 (or whatever it is), please.

 

[Morkonan]

I'd like to say that I had some similar problems when I first dloaded and played FFH2. A friend of mine who is a definitive Civ addict didn't get over his first impressions. (I'm still working on him btw.) However, that being said, I looked harder at the game, the mechanics and how each civ was structured and came to really enjoy FFH more than any mod of any game I have played to date. It is a very rich game with alot of character. Civs are definitely not of the carbon-copy type found in vanilla Civ. That's one of the things that I find so appealing in this game.

One thing that has to be remembered is that this is a work in progress. As Kael said, they're not going to take the trouble of constantly rewriting civ entries. Once something makes it past testing and is firmly embedded, I'm sure they will start trying to add it in. I found the FFH Wiki invaluable in helping to advance my understanding of what Kael&Co. have been trying to create for us. http://civ4wiki.com/wiki/index.php/Fall_from_Heaven_II

So far, in my opinion, Kael&Co. have created something that, with a little help from Firaxis , has the possibility of influencing future production games in this genre. The fantasy based god-game hasn't had alot of big winners in the past. The oft cherished Master of Magic, Warlords, Heroes of Might and Magic and to some extent Kohan come to mind. Each has their own specific niche but none go to the depth that the traditional Civ franchise does. Taking high-fantasy and adopting Civ's depth is a difficult task but one that I think the creators have the capability to do.

This is one of the few games that I patch in which I actually look forward to each and every patch that is released. It's not because of bug fixes either. It's because I wait with rapt anticipation to see what new ideas the developers come up with next.

 

[daladinn]

guys i fully agree this is a great mod , and trust me i have been playing fall from heaven for a LONG time , my problem atm is simply that the in game pedia cant answer any questions i have , and neither can the wiki. trust me no one needs to sell me on this mod, all i need to know , and this is a big one , is HOW TO PLAY.

atm i have figured out that things like...
-- snake totems are random pops in hell tiles when it converts (or at least seem random to me so far) .
-- founding ashen viel starts the armegeddon counter
-- the ashen viel tech gives access to hyborem when discovered
-- the manes seem to be random pops in hyborem cities
-- hyborem is immortal only once , never seems to regain it (bug?)
-- diseased corpse's are still bugged (i think), and tend to die fast after building them

these are things that have NO documentationt that i could find, and i have looked around a bit

questions i still have
-- how do you use shuet stones?
-- does hyborem have any way to progress the armegedon counter?
-- why does hyborem seem to have soo many happy issues? lol
-- when and what happens as the armegedon counter rises?

btw, thanks for the responses so far

 

[Nikis-Knight]

questions i still have
-- how do you use shuet stones?
-- does hyborem have any way to progress the armegedon counter?
-- why does hyborem seem to have soo many happy issues? lol
-- when and what happens as the armegedon counter rises?

1--frankly I don't remember.
2--any cities he builds, captures, or destroys should do it due to automatically having the Ashen Veil.
3--Maybe you are using too many manes in your cites? OR else it is a problem of some happy resources being destroyed by hell. In either case, not needing food in any way should allow you to get by with less.
4--Why would I spoil the fun?
(Okay, here--Blight, food improvement destruction at 40, horsemen at 60-70, avatar of wrath at 70, apocalypse at 100, and hell terrain will not spread into non-veil evil/unowned/neutral lands until the counter reaches 25/50/70 respectively. Additionally some rituals require a high count, and Sheaim and demons get bonuses to unit production/ strength respectively. Also, as the counter raises, most civs get more belliicose.)

 

[Kael]

guys i fully agree this is a great mod , and trust me i have been playing fall from heaven for a LONG time , my problem atm is simply that the in game pedia cant answer any questions i have , and neither can the wiki. trust me no one needs to sell me on this mod, all i need to know , and this is a big one , is HOW TO PLAY.

atm i have figured out that things like...
-- snake totems are random pops in hell tiles when it converts (or at least seem random to me so far) .
-- founding ashen viel starts the armegeddon counter
-- the ashen viel tech gives access to hyborem when discovered
-- the manes seem to be random pops in hyborem cities
-- hyborem is immortal only once , never seems to regain it (bug?)
-- diseased corpse's are still bugged (i think), and tend to die fast after building them

these are things that have NO documentationt that i could find, and i have looked around a bit

questions i still have
-- how do you use shuet stones?
-- does hyborem have any way to progress the armegedon counter?
-- why does hyborem seem to have soo many happy issues? lol
-- when and what happens as the armegedon counter rises?

btw, thanks for the responses so far

Im actually glad to see that most of your questions are around functions that are still in the process of being worked on. The only one thats not is the diseased corpse question, but Im not sure what you mean by it. I cant reproduce any issue.


-- snake totems are random pops in hell tiles when it converts (or at least seem random to me so far) .
They appear where there was a grain resource before.

-- founding ashen viel starts the armegeddon counter
The first event that adds armageddon count starts the counter, in most games thats founding the veil but it could be razing a city too.

-- the ashen viel tech gives access to hyborem when discovered
In 0.21 Hyborem has been moved to the first civ that discovers corruption of spirit.

-- the manes seem to be random pops in hyborem cities
This really depends on which version you are using as we are tweaking it heavily. If an evil unit dies there is a chance that a mane will be created in one of hyborems cities

-- hyborem is immortal only once , never seems to regain it (bug?)
Not a bug, we made him immortal once so the AI will go out and attack with him. After he loses the immortal tag the AI protects him and keeps him in a city (we didnt want the AI risking him early, or not attempting an early rush with him, and giving him permanent immortality was to powerful).

-- diseased corpse's are still bugged (i think), and tend to die fast after building them
Not sure what you mean by this one.

-- how do you use shuet stones?
If a unit is built in a city with access to shuet stones it starts with the shuet stones promotion.

-- does hyborem have any way to progress the armegedon counter?
All the ways anyone else can: http://civ4wiki.com/wiki/index.php/FfH_Armageddon_Counter

-- why does hyborem seem to have soo many happy issues? lol
low blood sugar?

-- when and what happens as the armegedon counter rises?
The wiki article link should have all this.

 

[seZereth]

daladinn is right, if one never read the Developers Diarys for Fire, one did not get the info for all the new stuff.

 

[daladinn]

yay a really useful link , thanks keal ...

after reading the link i went back through the pedia to find it since i must ahve missed it before. the only way i could get to taht page was via the shiams portal building. i expected it under new features or hyborem or something, but it was not there. thanks for all the help so for.

btw , i learned the hard way ..... DONT get to good with the shiam before triggering hyborem.... i had the eater of dreams when i switch , then declared war on myself and promptly got spanked.

i would like to reccomend a change to hyborem's immortality though , mostly since i see him as being very similar to losha. have him regain it whenever he kills an angel in combat.

ohh , more questions , lol....

where did the hellfire ritual go? as shiam , causing all this chaos sucks if it gets me killed in the end.

also , is there any way we can allow the clan of embers a similar ritual so that they wont lose their peace with the barbs when winning?

and please , sorry , can we do ANYTHING to save the pathetic lanun and thier piss poor attempt as society? sureshot iirc had some great implementations

ohh , more stuff .... did any of the wonderful ZOC additions get added? the stuff from mania? man i miss that stuff..

hope i am not driving ya to mad with all these questions

 

[onedreamer]

i could not find any reference to snake totems other then the bonus amounts.

ah, do snake pillars actually do something else than providing boni ?

 

[Nikis-Knight]

I don't think so.