Financial - overpowered, or overrated?

[Abacus]

It seems many people are rating financial as one of the best traits, but I just finished a Noble "six city challenge" cultural victory with Ghandi (not financial) and wonder if financial would have helped at all beyond BC.

I built cottages everywhere, and by 1200AD I had so much income that I was gold rushing everything, even wonders occasionally, with 80% research, and outteching the AI by an era. I never really needed additional income.

Is the additional gold more beneficial on higher difficulties? Or are people just building more cottages because of the +1 commerce and reporting the financial benefits of towns?

 

[walkerjks]

I try to look at it as what % does the leader trait contribute to your cultural victory. In the case of creative, it's probably around 3% to 5%. It's a bigger part of culture at the beginning, but by the time you are really pumping out the culture, the +2 (or +8 or so with % bonuses) isn't a huge part of the total culture.

As you discovered, industrious is fabulous at noble. You can end up with most of the wonders which is a huge culture (and great leader) boost. The problem with industrious is that it doesn't scale real well up to higher difficulty levels. If the AI is beating you to the techs, they will generally beat you to the wonders as well.

As you pointed out, financial is +1 gold. If you cottage everything you can, that can mean anything from +1 on a base +8 tile (flood plains) or +1 on a +2 tile (coast, lumbermill on river, etc). So it's anywhere from +50% to +12.5% commerce, depending on the tile. Figure an average of +20% commerce. When you factor in the fact that much of your culture is actually coming friom culture (and great artists), rather than commerce, financial probably contributes somewhere closer to 7% to 10% of your cultural victory.

But that's not the real power of financial, in my mind. 20% more commerce = 20% more tech (actually more since your maintenance costs aren't any higher). That's critical on higher difficulty levels. Financial scales perfectly at higher difficulty levels, since it's not dependent on how many religions you manage to found or how many wonders you manage to build.

 

[Dog of Justice]

It seems many people are rating financial as one of the best traits, but I just finished a Noble "six city challenge" cultural victory with Ghandi (not financial) and wonder if financial would have helped at all beyond BC.

I built cottages everywhere, and by 1200AD I had so much income that I was gold rushing everything, even wonders occasionally, with 80% research, and outteching the AI by an era. I never really needed additional income.

Is the additional gold more beneficial on higher difficulties? Or are people just building more cottages because of the +1 commerce and reporting the financial benefits of towns?

Yes, for the most part it's about the benefits of towns. But it's Financial that makes proto-towns give you enough benefit to tide you over until you get full-fledged +7 commerce +1 production towns. Without Financial, cottages aren't a very attractive early game build.

 

[WoundedKnight]

It seems many people are rating financial as one of the best traits, but I just finished a Noble "six city challenge" cultural victory with Ghandi (not financial) and wonder if financial would have helped at all beyond BC.

Absolutely. Although a good player can win with any traits, I love financial. In almost all of my games, from the middle ages on financial allows me to keep 100% research, not 80% as in your game. The extra 20% tech speed is a big deal -- valuable for getting key wonders, achieving superior military and financial technology, etc. It does make a difference IMO. And typically even with 100% research, I still have enough money left over to rush buildings and units, maintain a massive army, fund any the civics I want, etc.

 

[Abacus]

You're right, noble's too easy. I ended up with every religion and most of the wonders. I'm planning to move up now that I understand the new mechanics and interface, but hope to learn a little more before I do.

And clearly financial offers some nice benefits; thinking of it as 20% more tech is enlightening. But it requires a particular playstyle - cottages everywhere, preferably with universal sufferage and free speech. I'm wondering why (if) it's better than the other traits.

My humble analysis:

Financial gives a moderate (20% seems like a nice estimate) increase in commerce, but requires cottages or watermills on rivers, hamlets on plains and grassland, and windmills on hills. Only the cottages are available for most of the game. The extra commerce early on is a strong boost if you have a lot of flood plains, but if not, doesn't building cottages mean limiting city growth too much?

Industrious actually had little effect at all beyond BC in my games - I usually manage to rush most wonders with great engineers. But being able to chop rush the Pyramids and start a steady stream of great engineers seems almost overpowering.

Philosophical also helps with the great engineers, if you manage to nab the Pyramids without industrious, or build a forge. A great person focused strategy would probably have the National epic and pacifism, so some complicated math with reasonable assumptions shows that philosophical gives around 15% more great people. That's 23 instead of 20, which is 12,000 culture or 50% more science in 3 more cities. Plus you get those great people much faster.

I don't know much about the other traits, I haven't developed effective strategies for their use yet. But I imagine similar arguments apply.

My humble hypothesis:

It seems like each trait gives a small boost to a different playstyle, so the debate about traits is really about which playstyle is most effective. Given a particular style, naturally it makes sense to choose the trait that gives bonuses for that game.

But I'm sure there's a lot of errors and faulty assumptions in that argument. If any feels like ripping me apart (with facts and logic, please!), that'd actually be welcome.

 

[weimingshi]

who said financial strategy needs cottage everywhere????
The +1 is for any tile produce 2 or more gold, windmill, watermill, ressources, coast, camp, pasture, all those produce 2+ gold. And for me this is cretical at higher difficulty. I play on emperor, without financial trait, i can't imagine how I can keep up research rate with AI, Early in the game those 3 gold coast square and 3 gold riverside squares make a huge difference.

 

[Moodu]

I have had great luck with the Phi/Cre Germans in Standard to small maps. #1 reason you can peacefully take over close cities without starting wars.

i get Greats ARtists to beef up my cities near enemies cities. I must get half my cities from conversions. Its a great way to dominate without financial. Any my culture totally dominates the land area that i can control.

 

[Pinstar]

I play Fin because I was a die-hard Morgan player in SMAC. All that extra income has always helped.

 

[Gufnork]

I play on emperor, without financial trait, i can't imagine how I can keep up research rate with AI, Early in the game those 3 gold coast square and 3 gold riverside squares make a huge difference.

It's easy, just hit them over the head repeatedly. Sooner or later their tech rate won't be that impressive.

 

[Abacus]

who said financial strategy needs cottage everywhere????
The +1 is for any tile produce 2 or more gold, windmill, watermill, ressources, coast, camp, pasture, all those produce 2+ gold. And for me this is cretical at higher difficulty. I play on emperor, without financial trait, i can't imagine how I can keep up research rate with AI, Early in the game those 3 gold coast square and 3 gold riverside squares make a huge difference.

I forgot about the extra gold from coastal squares. Thanks, that gave me a sweet idea for my next game.

 

[Heroes]

Financial gives a moderate (20% seems like a nice estimate) increase in commerce, but requires cottages or watermills on rivers, hamlets on plains and grassland, and windmills on hills. Only the cottages are available for most of the game. The extra commerce early on is a strong boost if you have a lot of flood plains, but if not, doesn't building cottages mean limiting city growth too much?

Well, the question is: do you have anything better than cottage to build? If you build too many mines, farms, workshops, etc., you are likely to get little commerce to invest into science. Different from civ 3, a road doesn't add 1 gold, which makes gold making tiles much more scarce.