Finnvitka, the Fantasy Mod

[Kailric]

I have been reading about the Vikings, about their gods, their sagas, and their beliefs. It has reminded me of another type of mod I would love to work on some day and that is a Fantasy mod. The reason being, with Fantasy, there is no limits to what you can do. As a programmer that is exciting as you can really let your imagination run wild and program all kinds of cool commands, effects, and magical abilities.

What I have been inspired by the Vikings is a setting were all the Gods (Greek, Viking, etc) are real (I know they are all real, just saying ), all the magical beings mention in their folk lore are real also. Such as the Viking Álfar or elves, the Dvergar or dwarves, and the Thyrs or trolls. Magic is real as well, and Sorcery, such as the a Finnish women's spell casting ability. Hence the term Finnvitka, which means 'to practice magic in a distinctly Finnish manner'. Even the Christian God is real also (I know He is real, just saying ), and His priest can cast out demons and bestow blessing on the faithful.

All the art files are already there, all we would need to do is write the cool stuff. I know there is that other fantasy mod (FFH), but ours would be based on Col and the M:C mod, and thus rock even more.

I wanted to share that with you guys so you can think on it as well. I still have a bunch to do with M:C still yet, so I can't start this any time soon, but in the mean time I'll be "charge'n my fireball"!

PS I posted this in the Medieval: Conquests project forum but wanted to share it here also for others. Please post in the main thread in this link if you would like to contribute:http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=525393

 

[Commander Bello]

As a programmer that is exciting as you can really let your imagination run wild and program all kinds of cool commands, effects, and magical abilities.
(...)
I wanted to share that with you guys so you can think on it as well. I still have a bunch to do with M:C still yet, so I can't start this any time soon, but in the mean time I'll be "charge'n my fireball"!

PS I posted this in the Medieval: Conquests project forum but wanted to share it here also for others.

Well, then I will take the liberty to post my reply here, too.

Sounds quite interesting.

But, before thinking of all the cool features to be implemented I would propose to make some thoughts about how to improve the AI - something which I think has been missed in recent mods.
They are all a bit different from each other but in the end they are all based on the same wrotten AI we've inhereted from the original Civ4/Civ4Col.

 

[Kailric]

Yes, the AI needs improved and this will be done in M:C so if you have ideas on that please share.

This thread is mostly to bring the idea to the attention of the general public and to post any progress made.

Please post in the main there in this link if you would like to contribute...
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=525393

 

[orlanth]

Wow sounds exciting I've always wanted to see a real fantasy themed total conversion and M:C would be the perfect base for it. Plus there is tons of good fantasy nif art in mods like Master of Mana and FfH (I'm hoping Grendel will be in it ) There is a well-developed XML Spells system in MoM and FfH modmods as well that may be worth looking at (this could even work for some form of generic "Actions" in other modmods of M:C). Robert Surcouf had always wanted to work on a fantasy mod so who knows if you message him you may be able to lure him out of retirement!

 

[Kailric]

Well, just how bad do you want to see it? Bad enough to work on it?

What we need to do is decide which theme we want to go with. A familar one, if so my vote would be Warcraft. But I would be really interested in something new and fresh as mentioned here. It would take a lot of planning on paper first though.

 

[Lib.Spi't]

I would say the best way to approach this would be not to think so much about a specific 'setting'.

I would start by thinking about what unique tools are needed, what unique new code functions, beyond M:C.

I would say the first would be magic for a fantasy mod, and deciding how magic would work, what kind of things we look like it to be able to influence, such things as combat, productivity, fertility, etc.

I would focus your energy (as a wizard) first and foremeost on the code 'engine'just like you guys are doing with M:C and the shared .dll, because once you have new features like 'magic' that can be messed around with in a really deep and varied way in the xml (like a magic.xml file or whatever), then people with little skill (points to me) can be involved in making all the various iterations of magic spells and mosters and whatever else.

So my advice would be focus on M:C and the Joint .dll project.
Then start to think of the deep code of what new 'fantasy' things we would like (the actual code functions) Such as spells, magic, species, or whatever else we can think of, then once we have the mechanics anyone can build up whatever story is wanted purely in the .xml and word processing realms.

The ability to be able to join in and make amazing mods is what draws people in I think, the ability to do and introduce amazing, powerful things to the game with very little ability (which is I think one of the reasons why Civ 4 has hung around so long, because so much can be done with so little skill) is what really gets people involved, the realisation of 'wow I can do ALL this just with word processing!?!' is what really gets people addicted and diving into it.

So I would say (once M:C and the Universal Mod Source (that sounds nice!) is solid) start a 'generic fantasy tools' mod/thread that brings new concept code for magic or whatever else and discusses and implements ways of these functioning on an xml level.

Because once people like me get new toys to play with that they can understand and not blow up (I have gotten pretty good at not blowing up xml!) then stuff will really kick off!

I think one of the problems with col modding is that in order to introduce a new yield, that is not a cosmetic change of an existing one, takes a lot of work and understanding and goes all the way to the .dll and adding a new yield is probably a number one desire for any modder of col, because you instantly think 'if I could add X it could make Y' but it is quite hard to do that. Civ lets you do a lot more without ever going to the python or source code.

And to enter into the convo of favourite fantasy settings:

My personal favourite setting has also been the fantasy meets industry setting, games like arcanum, where magic and technology have started to crash against each other with a variety of different rules and outcomes in a familiar and alien world.

 

[Nightinggale]

which is I think one of the reasons why Civ 4 has hung around so long, because so much can be done with so little skill

This is one of the things, which really surprised me when I started modding. The mods look so awesome that I was like "these guys are good", but then I looked at the code
I mean people have been modding the civ4 engine for close to a decade and one of the first things I do is to make a much better makefile with multicore support, optimized assert DLLs and custom designed DLLs for much more accurate profiling. Given the amount of hours spent by so many mods I'm surprised that didn't appear much earlier.
The coding quality isn't what I expected either. It works, but oh man would it have been different if I had done all of it
I'm not thinking of any specific mod here, but it is my impression that the colo mods generally have nicer coding than the BTS ones.

I could start an OS flamewar now by saying that I'm used to much higher coding quality from others, but this is the first time I touch something, which is Windows only
Seriously though windows is inferior when it comes to what we are doing. I didn't use windows when moving to a new git server simply because windows makes that task harder with an annoying worse CLI interface.

what really gets people involved, the realisation of 'wow I can do ALL this just with word processing!?!' is what really gets people addicted and diving into it.

There is an XML editor written for BTS. People don't even have to use a word processor.

Universal Mod Source (that sounds nice!)

Why didn't you come with such an awesome name when I asked for names before I moved git. Renaming now is tricky compared to just naming it in the first place
I would still like to rename the source submodule into UMS though. It does sound a lot better than just "source"

Because once people like me get new toys to play with that they can understand and not blow up (I have gotten pretty good at not blowing up xml!) then stuff will really kick off!

First step in getting a kick off is to release and fill SF with screenshots, then post the release in places like http://www.moddb.com/games/civilization-iv-colonization/mods
Colonization 2071 is working hard on finding all the locations, which aren't modder friendly. Every time there is an issue, the DLL becomes a bit more modder friendly and the error messages makes it a whole lot easier to figure out what went wrong and how to correct it.

Maybe we should also add in the readme that it is a modder friendly DLL meaning people can make mods like this without being able to program.

Another interesting approach to attract wouldbe modders is to figure out how to install Colonization+mods in wine. If we can broadcast that it works on mac and in linux environments, then it might raise awareness far beyond what we get now. Looking at winehq it should be within our reach: https://appdb.winehq.org/objectManager.php?sClass=application&iId=8319

I think one of the problems with col modding is that in order to introduce a new yield, that is not a cosmetic change of an existing one, takes a lot of work and understanding and goes all the way to the .dll and adding a new yield is probably a number one desire for any modder of col, because you instantly think 'if I could add X it could make Y' but it is quite hard to do that. Civ lets you do a lot more without ever going to the python or source code.

Look at sourceMOD. The C++ parts have been made a whole lot easier to access. You still need to compile though, which you don't have to do when you mod XML only.

And to enter into the convo of favourite fantasy settings:

My personal favourite setting has also been the fantasy meets industry setting, games like arcanum, where magic and technology have started to crash against each other with a variety of different rules and outcomes in a familiar and alien world.

I really love Arcanum and I find it much better than Fallout. However I'm not that happy with vanilla setup and modding is kind of hard. However it isn't impossible and I have a fairly modded version

 

[Lib.Spi't]

Well arcanum came along a lot later than fallout, so it is not that fair to compare, they are also completely different styles of game, but yes I did love arcanum! I still have it on my shelves somewhere...

And as for USM... you can't rush inspiration.. it flows when it flows

Holy Modding Batman!! FTTW Just hit number 91 on ModDB!!!!! Wahoo I made a mod that finally made the top 100!

Edit:

Anyway, getting the word out about M:C, 2071, WHM, and USM won't be hard, when we get them stable, documented and understandable etc.

 

[Nightinggale]

Holy Modding Batman!! FTTW Just hit number 91 on ModDB!!!!! Wahoo I made a mod that finally made the top 100!

I just set myself a new goal. I want to beat FTTW with a mod from CMC. It doesn't matter which one, I just want to do it. Wouldn't it be hilarious if it ends up being WH, which does it

Anyway, getting the word out about M:C, 2071, WHM, and USM won't be hard, when we get them stable, documented and understandable etc.

Nobody bothers with documentation
I wrote a bit of a script to autogenerate a table for github wiki for each XML file. However I want to improve on it and make one for SF too. It should need to be easy to modify and it should be updating with scripts meaning it will partly automatically update to XML schema updates. Too much manual work and it will go out of sync.

 

[Lib.Spi't]

yeah what there needs to be eventually is a 'Guide to Modding USM' you get a step by step guide that shows a newbie how to do something amazing and they will be hooked, it is how I started!

I don't know if I will ever be able to be a Coder, but I can be a games designer!

I am not against being the one to write such a tutorial, once I understand what the HECK YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT!!!!

 

[Lib.Spi't]

Hey my goal is to have the Top 5 Slots Filled by mods Supported by MonkeydoGames!

So lets do this!

I am already Creative Director on 3 Mods, so noww I just need to get them to be badass!

ModDB Top 100 List:

FTTW
WHM
SOD:W
(Some Knd Of Zombie Mod)
Magic and Metallurgy Mod
Some kind of Space Ship Adventure Mod


Then maybe by this poit I will have scraped together enough money to make an ACTUAL Game! Then we will all be rich!! Muahahahahaha!!

 

[Kailric]

I would say the best way to approach this would be not to think so much about a specific 'setting'.

I would start by thinking about what unique tools are needed, what unique new code functions, beyond M:C.

I would say the first would be magic for a fantasy mod, and deciding how magic would work, what kind of things we look like it to be able to influence, such things as combat, productivity, fertility,

The thing with magic is each setting has a profound influence on how magic works. To make this as modder friendly as possible We would have to decide on all the types of magic players would be interested in and find a way to make them all moddable. Most magic systems are similar so it shouldn't be to difficult. We could have a Magic.xml that defines how magic works. The a Spells.xml that defines the spells.

 

[Nightinggale]

We have 3 mods in active development and we seem to lack the manpower it takes to make just one of them release even though it is greatly overdue. I don't think now is the time to consider DLL additions for yet another mod.

Don't get me wrong. I would love to code a magic system (seriously, it would be awesome), but considering how far into the future it would be used, (if ever) I would rather focus on something else. M:C needs some economy and balance updates and if we talk about adding a new DLL feature, I would rather fix network gaming as all mods would benefit from it and the effort would likely be less than introducing a brand new magic system.

Now if we actually had somebody showing up and wanting to make a magic related mod, then it would be entirely different. However right now every minute spend on this is a minute less on M:C because it would be the same developmers. I couldn't even keep up with RaRE and M:C at the same time, how do you think we should do something like starting a new mod without extra help?

 

[Lib.Spi't]

Well I would say that we discuss the different ways magic could work, from the view of the code mechanics. Rather than the 'lore' of magics.

So for example:

Does magic need to use up a yield/multiple yields/no yields.
In what ways could magic effect units/cities/the map.

Then create xml tags that can manipulate these things, like giving promotion X to a target unit, or changing a target tile to terrain X, etc.

 

[Lib.Spi't]

I agree, right now this is just a conversation, I have all along said the focus needs to be on releasing an easy to access version of M:C..

when I tried, I got it working (after way too long a headache!) discovered a bug within fiove minutes, was told to get yet another version, tried that and found everything that was working before was no longer working!>!

Way too much headache for me!

 

[Nightinggale]

Well I would say that we discuss the different ways magic could work, from the view of the code mechanics. Rather than the 'lore' of magics.

That would be easy. Ask the wizard how magic works. In this case it would be a coding wizard

Seriously though we can debate this for months and then it is coded, it ends up differently because somebody else shows up with a new idea. Debating coding for something, which we know will not be coded within the next 6-12 months is kind of pointless. It would be much better to consider how to balance the M:C economy to play well with multiple playing styles instead of forcing a single playing style on the players. On top of that just balancing the economy would be good.

 

[Kailric]

Like I already mentioned there are no plans for starting to mod this, just here for discussion. I put it out there to draw interest. Perhaps there would be someone interested enough to actually start adding units and such, you just never know.

Plus I like to read myself to sleep and reading about the Vikings and thier beliefs really stirred my interest on this. I have a whole back story brewing in my head. Should I repress my creative impulses and just focus on the tasks at hand? I have to make notes as they come as I will forget ideas so easily. While play testing I am steadily writing stuff. I have pages and pages of notes.

 

[PatriotNorwood]

This could be interesting, but you are treading on unstable ground with the whole gods thing. Using pagan gods like the Vikings' and Greeks' is fine, but throwing God (or the Christian God as you call him, which would as a matter of fact be the Jewish God as well ) in there concerns me and it might others too. Just saying, I am not trying to offend you, and if you go ahead with this as you propose that is fine with me and it won't offend me (although I won't be playing your mod). Others might be offended though so I thought I should bring this up. Again no offense.

 

[Kailric]

This could be interesting, but you are treading on unstable ground with the whole gods thing. Using pagan gods like the Vikings' and Greeks' is fine, but throwing God (or the Christian God as you call him, which would as a matter of fact be the Jewish God as well ) in there concerns me and it might others too. Just saying, I am not trying to offend you, and if you go ahead with this as you propose that is fine with me and it won't offend me (although I won't be playing your mod). Others might be offended though so I thought I should bring this up. Again no offense.

PatriotNorwood, you sound like a very swell fellow, and I hope that one day your God and my God can be friends

To paraphrase the developers at Firaxis, we are programmers, not theologians

But, I do see your concerns. This mod, as it says, is Fantasy, and with all that is already going on will probably remain only a fantastic dream.