Firaxis stereotyping Orientals

Well Racism was invented in the west largely because Race was invented in the west.. In all the world the idea that We are better, everyone else is inferior occurred. It can be seen among Greek, Chinese, Japanese, etc. Racism occured when the west started saying... that

English/French/Germans may not be better than everyone, but Whites are

Basically the other concept (Japanese are Better than everyone or Greeks are Better than everyone) is not called racism because Japanese/Greeks are not considered a 'race'...If they are considered a 'race', then racism is a nearly universal human belief that has only only recently begun to decline.
 
meatwad4289 said:
Koreans only play RTS???? WTH? I have alot of Korean Cousins who play Civilization, Counter-Strike, Halo, Day of Defeat, Madden, ECT. My Best Friend plays Civ4 and Counter-Strike 90% as well as MMOs(changes from WOW to Guildwars to EQ all the time lol) and he's half Korean, hell his family goes to Korea like once once every two months. I don't think you know Koreans very well, I mean Nintendo doesn't make very many RTS's but as I understand it Nintendo is huge there, not as huge as Japanese standard(WHO COULD BE?), but fairly large. Korea is big into Games, not RTS, your using a stereotype that no body ever uses on Korea.
Calm down, mate. Of course no one plays only RTS. But when they spend80-90% their playing times playing RTS, then we can say they only play RTS. And if 80-90% of gamers from a country are so, then we can say the country only play RTS. And if they are good at RTS, let they play RTS. It's fact, it's no stereotype. And i don't count MMOs and FPS. I mean they often play RTS than TBS. What do your cousins and your half Korean friend have anything to do with it? If you count people of other countries of Korean descent, then there are more Vietnamese gamers than Korean gamers
meatwad4289 said:
"The Battle of Ap Bac was a small-scale action early in the Vietnam War that resulted in the first major combat victory by Viet Cong guerrillas against regular South Vietnamese forces. " As I read, They barely had ANY americans at all, American Chopper Support with Crews... America was barly involved.

Siege of Khe Sahn was anything but a draw. It was a Tactical Failure.

Tactical Failure is no loss, ok. As i said, we won some, lost some. But we don't use statistics to judge who won or lost a war. What's important is the outcome. In football, the winning team is the team which scores, not the team which has more shots on goal or less players that get injured



meatwad4289 said:
Also... It's not unreasonable that alot of Planes get blown out of the sky, because theres guys in the jungle shooting at them... Also does it take into account planes that were claimed thru explosions on the ground IE child bombs.

It's also listed which were shot down in combat

meatwad4289 said:
Maybe because they Didn't have As many deployed as we did???
Maybe, but who cares?
meatwad4289 said:
joke much??

Joke what? it's no joke that Vietnamese's Temple of Literature is a great wonder

meatwad4289 said:
How Accurate American Sources are??? WTH? Half the American Sources point to a Vietnamese Victory

Good. But it means that the other Half doesnt point to a vietnamese victory.
That's what "inaccurate" means

meatwad4289 said:
The only true source is the Raw Source, the troops. Wikipedia is not an American Source its just an online source. THAT CAN BE EDITED BY ANY ONE. For All we know you could of made those entries about the battles and planes, which you probably didn't but we don;t know.
Wikipedia is not a good source for anything that involves politics, AKA Wars. Hell not even a good source for Info on TV. I'll use Wikipedia to look up things people don't care enough to give a biased opinion on...

Wikipedia can not be edited by anyone. I tried to edit some acticles but they have still stayed the same
 
boazman said:
The study of race was considered as a science in the 18th and 19th centuries. It first began with Swedish zoologist Carolus Linnaeus (1707-1778) who applied biological classifications to human begins (rather reasonably), thus classified human into different ‘races’. The study of race continued throughout 18th and 19th centuries, often involvement various elaborated hierarchical schemes, charting of skull shape and measurement of intelligence. Scientists developed theories to explain the perceived differences between different races, arguing that some races are more evolved than others. It must be noted that study of race was not associated with emotional and irrational feelings at that time; on the contrary it was considered as part of rational science, with the purpose of organizing society better. There was not necessarily hatred involved, some may treated other races in a benign way, but still they were considered biologically different.

The term ‘racism’ didn’t appear until 1930s, when it was gradually accepted that ‘theories of race’ was scientifically invalid; that biological differences between ‘races’ are only superficial, and that treating other race differently is unjustified. It was only by then, that the ‘study of race’ was termed as ‘scientific racism’. That’s why in academic field (at least that’s what I was taught), the use of ‘ethnicity’ is preferred to ‘race’, because the latter is an arbitrary classification and has little use in social sciences.

Were those 19th racial theorists ‘racist’ then? Yes, they were, not because they held the belief that ‘race accounts for differences in human character or ability and that a particular race is superior to others’. I think many people overlooked that point that you don’t have to commit hate crime to be called racist; holding the belief that ‘race explains differences in human’ is already racist. And I think there is no need to deny that the era where Jefferson lived accepted the idea which we call racist now. It doesn’t implies Western civilizations are racist, only that at some point of history they accepted racism; it doesn’t mean the ‘West’ invented racism, or they are the only civilizations capable of being racist.

I'm not even talking about the temperament of the person with certain views. I'm talking about the fact that when people hear 'racist' it implies to them the person was a bigot [or at least prejudiced]. And ...that 'race explains differences in humans' doesn't even mean the person thinks one race is superior, let alone means he is a bigot or prejudiced. I know some people have called this belief racism under certain terms, but its not what racism means to to the average person, and its certainly sticky to link the two uses--because you can both invalidate a belief through association, and tarnish a person's character through association.

I used Jefferson as an example for a particular reason. As I said he argued for the dignity of all races was benign towards blacks and wanted slavery ended. A lot of people assume his intellectual, academic view is enough to call him a 'racist', but racist to people implies bigotry. A lot of people do also assume he was a bigot. Its not even a matter of semantics (though I think it is--I don't think dictionary definitions really reflect the connotations of the term as people use it)---its a matter of not thinking that we should brandish someone as racist for just honestly, academically, holding a belief even if their mindset is not illiberal. It is like concluding just because someone challenges facts about the Holocaust they are necessarily anti-semitic--and while people assume this, it could be an honest academic dispute. I'm sure that there are people who will say someone is -necessarily- anti-semitic if they challenge the Holocaust but its not true.

Note that Jefferson as a person and whatever scientific views about race at the time can also be distinguished. If racism implies bigotry and prejudice, and Jefferson did not prejudge blacks or was not intolerant, that is one thing. One could still argue that a science that actually ascribed certain characteristics to people of certain races carries prejudices. And one might conclude that Jefferson just believed in something that applied in science had racist consequences. This is how people use the term racism to refer to a system of opression rather than a persons mindset; its referring to biases in institutions rather than people.

I would say the same thing about sexism regarding the 19th century. Even though sexism doesn't imply bigotry but a lower treatment; and though people in the 19th century popularly believed women had different roles, the belief was that they did not have inferior roles, that men and women just operated in different but equal spheres of society. Whereas sexism implies a diminishment of women. So I would say that calling an average 19th century individual sexist would not fit just like calling him a racist would not fit; its trying to apply our presumptions about race and gender beliefs on a different way of thinking. In either case, a 19th century person would be more willing to accept different positions for women or blacks because of their different positions historically. Remember that slavery did not start out as chattel slavery and many slaves ended up being free and owning slaves themselves. Race theories ended up being a way to justify slavery as societies became more dependent on it. Women because of social circumstance played certain traditional roles; if you went to a typical 17th century woman and told her she was being oppressed it would be humorous. Both the role and view of women started to change during industrialization and urbanization when society was changing. But theories about differences in sex were a way to explain and justify differences in social roles.

But the characterization of the beliefs in race as being entirely scientific in the 18th and 19th centuries is a little misleading. There was a lot of bad pseudo-science about race. But a lot of beliefs were not essentially scientific--in the empirical sense--but based in philosophy and connected to Historicism, in the same way as nationalism was. It was not a biological argument, but an argument that race was ienxorably tied to culture--ie blacks were in the position they were in because of who they were as a people , which on some level was grouped biologically. This btw does not contradict any empirical arguments against race theories.

While I find this theory too simple I still think it has truth;--- and my view is that in order to actually deal with racism and solve the problems of racism, we will have to admit and understand how race and culture have been connected historically. Which doesn't mean securely definining a certain group a certain way as to their aptitudes, because definitions are limited and limiting and I don't think people's aptitudes are limited based on race---it is more of a recognition of race as a real thing.

I also don't agree with postmodern argument that race is just a social construct that has no basis in biology at all. Its not an argument over percentage differences in genetics like people make it out to be, or surveys of classifiable differences between groups of people. Race in people this way is analagous to breeds of dogs--except that people are self-selecting. Nobody would argue that the difference between a scottish terrier and west highland white terrier is socially constructed, even though they can mate and may not empirically have distinctly classifiable traits. It would be foolish.

Different breeds of dogs, btw tend to have different behaviors---and this is one of the reasons race in the 19th century was examined in scientific terms. I think the analogy between animals and people is too simplistic, that the link between race and behavior depends on social psychology, and I think the extrapolation into notions of superiority were simplistic. I also don't think races are permanent as breeds aren't and because people self-select it sort of makes the other issues moot. But I would still defend the category of race as being factual and not 'imaginary'. Do you think thats enough for me to be a racist?

I don't think that when the term for scientific racism was developed that the person who coined it suspected race could be thought of scientifically in a way that wasn't prejudicial. Which is why it implies prejudice or bigotry.
 
brianshapiro said:
It is like concluding just because someone challenges facts about the Holocaust they are necessarily anti-semitic--and while people assume this, it could be an honest academic dispute. I'm sure that there are people who will say someone is -necessarily- anti-semitic if they challenge the Holocaust but its not true.

If someone decides to "challenge the Holocaust" by asserting that it never happened, that there was never a policy of killing Jews and other 'undesireables', or anything along those lines, then they're either anti-semetic or insane. There is simply too much clear evidence of what happened for a sane person to honestly believe that it didn't.

The holocaust deniers tend to start small in argument, opening with quibbles and only expanding to complete denial after spreading doubt in a reasonable guise, and there doesn't seem to be a lot of honest academic dispute, so it's a good bet that someone starting such a discussion has an ulterior motive.
 
Pantastic said:
If someone decides to "challenge the Holocaust" by asserting that it never happened, that there was never a policy of killing Jews and other 'undesireables', or anything along those lines, then they're either anti-semetic or insane. There is simply too much clear evidence of what happened for a sane person to honestly believe that it didn't.

The holocaust deniers tend to start small in argument, opening with quibbles and only expanding to complete denial after spreading doubt in a reasonable guise, and there doesn't seem to be a lot of honest academic dispute, so it's a good bet that someone starting such a discussion has an ulterior motive.

i agree that there's enough factual evidence

it may be a good bet that they have an ulterior motive, but i dont think theres a vital need to assume that. theres no reason to be afraid that an academic dispute will lead to a Fourth Reich, even for the reason that its patronizing towards people listening to the argument---assuming they will rise to jew hatred because of someone who argues against the holocaust.

and doesnt it lead to more anti-semitism that arguments seen as legitimate are attacked as bigoted and not less? there is a lot of distaste with the whole 'holocaust industry'. i think for some people the impulse to be contrarian about the holocaust comes from an opposition to that rather than a real anti-semitism.

i also don't think you should assume people with wrong positions or even immoral positions are insane or irrational.

also, a consequence of this is that even if there was a dispute about a certain fact of the holocaust that turned out correct it would be dismissed out of fear of ulterior motives of anti-semitism.

i dont think you're wrong in linking holocaust denial to anti-semitism, or people are wrong in linking racial theories to bigotry. but the link can be bad in same way that racism is, undue supression by generalization
 
BrainShapiro: I agree with you on the point that academic disputes on race should be welcomed.

I think the problem is the two definitions of 'racism' (as seen in dictionary) often get mixed up.

A 'racist', in my understanding, can be a person who holds the view that 'the belief that race accounts for differences in human ability and character, and that some race is superior to others', even though he/she might not (for whatever reasons) discriminate against, or/and being intolerate towards other people of other race. And a 'racist' can be a person who simply prejudices and is intolerant of other race.

The first 'racist' there can hold a theory that might worth serious discussion, because when we are talking about science, one cannot ruled out once and for all that biological factors don't account for differences in ability. Who knows?

But the second 'racist' can simply be stupid or insane.

The problem is then when the first 'racist' comes up with his/her theory he/she will be accused as racist and the image of the second 'racist' comes out.

Which is the reason why I was taught not to use the term 'race' in academic research. It invokes too much emotions. Perhaps we are still not confident enough to uphold an equal society even if it is scientifically proven that some people are brighter than others, therefore we are afraid of any academic discussions which might have racist implications.

I'm not against using biological factors to explain human behaviours, but just using concepts like 'races' and 'cultures' are bounded to have serious methodological problems. And actually that was one of the reasons why study of race was discredited in 40s (the primary reason was perhaps humanitarian). As you said, many 19th century racial sciences are pseudo-science and are methodologically flawed.

Classifying human beings is perfectly normal; however for serious research you have to classified people in terms of clearly idenitifiable traits. You might choose things like color of skin (scaled, perhaps?), color hair, height, etc; but 'race' is such a loose term that it have little explanatory power. For same reason I disagree with using all embracing term like 'culture' in accounting human differences. Of course, it is possible to narrow the defination of 'race' to the point that it is clearly definable, but I suspect it would result in thousands of 'race' - I came across with the pigeon entry in wikipedia and it says there are 308 different kinds of pigeon......I guess it's reasonable to think there are more 'species' of human.
 
boazman said:
BrainShapiro: I agree with you on the point that academic disputes on race should be welcomed.

I think the problem is the two definitions of 'racism' (as seen in dictionary) often get mixed up.

A 'racist', in my understanding, can be a person who holds the view that 'the belief that race accounts for differences in human ability and character, and that some race is superior to others', even though he/she might not (for whatever reasons) discriminate against, or/and being intolerate towards other people of other race. And a 'racist' can be a person who simply prejudices and is intolerant of other race.

The first 'racist' there can hold a theory that might worth serious discussion, because when we are talking about science, one cannot ruled out once and for all that biological factors don't account for differences in ability. Who knows?

But the second 'racist' can simply be stupid or insane.

The problem is then when the first 'racist' comes up with his/her theory he/she will be accused as racist and the image of the second 'racist' comes out.

Which is the reason why I was taught not to use the term 'race' in academic research. It invokes too much emotions. Perhaps we are still not confident enough to uphold an equal society even if it is scientifically proven that some people are brighter than others, therefore we are afraid of any academic discussions which might have racist implications.

I'm not against using biological factors to explain human behaviours, but just using concepts like 'races' and 'cultures' are bounded to have serious methodological problems. And actually that was one of the reasons why study of race was discredited in 40s (the primary reason was perhaps humanitarian). As you said, many 19th century racial sciences are pseudo-science and are methodologically flawed.

Classifying human beings is perfectly normal; however for serious research you have to classified people in terms of clearly idenitifiable traits. You might choose things like color of skin (scaled, perhaps?), color hair, height, etc; but 'race' is such a loose term that it have little explanatory power. For same reason I disagree with using all embracing term like 'culture' in accounting human differences. Of course, it is possible to narrow the defination of 'race' to the point that it is clearly definable, but I suspect it would result in thousands of 'race' - I came across with the pigeon entry in wikipedia and it says there are 308 different kinds of pigeon......I guess it's reasonable to think there are more 'species' of human.

well i think the scientific argument against classifying by race has the same problems as previous scientific attempts to differentiate races. if you try to find a way to scientifically differentiate races by coming up with a list of characteristics, you won't find that list of characteristics to be exclusively common in those particular races. but, in the same token, the idea that using specific, differentially identifiable characteristics to show there is no race is also wrong. as an example, what makes a face oval and what makes a face round? you will find most face types not perfect in being either oval and round and decide that there is no formula for what makes something oval or round round. so you might fall into the same trap and conclude that there is no commonality. but what makes a face type, and what makes a race, is not a list of characteristics, but a gestalt of characteristics.

its the same thing if you talk about styles in art. someone might want to study 19th century romanticic art and conclude there is nothing similar between different artists of the period, which people have done--but to anyone familiar with art you could identify what period in history something was made by a gestalt impression of the style. art is a difficult case to describe, but its easier if you take handwriting. it is very definite that a style of handwriting can be tied down to a particular era in history.

in some ways what 'asian' is as a race might not be able to be broken down, even if you say it exists. but also, what defines a 'cat' as a cat and not some other animal might not be able to be broken down. some scientists are arguing against taxonomies in nature meeting the highest methodological demands, but again they're not avoidable. this doesn't mean they're not really biological and must be subjective, it just means they're not easily definable in biological terms--ie there is a practical gestalt that can't be reduced in the way they want to reduce it [ie science in some way always demands reductionism]. i think the subjective senses have an important relation to real biology and biological development. in some way its not just people who see cats as cats, but cats, as well as other animals; because of a historical place in evolution which defines them

this doesn't automatically make race useful to methods in empirical science. but it may be a problem demanding all these things broken down into common empirical terms. in some ways the same shift of attitude to say that things have to be put in empirical scientific terms is connected with the modern-postmodern deconstructionist idea that denies truth to language and generally is anti-philosophy and is connected with modern philosophies against nationalism, racialism, morality, etc.

have you heard of the term 'scientism' : "The belief that the investigative methods of the physical sciences are applicable or justifiable in all fields of inquiry."
 
brianshapiro said:
it may be a good bet that they have an ulterior motive, but i dont think theres a vital need to assume that. theres no reason to be afraid that an academic dispute will lead to a Fourth Reich,

There is, quite simply, no academic dispute involved, the evidence is clear and abundant. Physical evidence, testimony from victims, testimony from the perptrators, and massive documentation created by the Nazis themselves leave no doubt that the exterminations occured. Denying the holocaust absolutely requires an ulterior motive, and it's pretty clear what that motive is.
 
Krikkitone said:
Well Racism was invented in the west largely because Race was invented in the west.. In all the world the idea that We are better, everyone else is inferior occurred. It can be seen among Greek, Chinese, Japanese, etc. Racism occured when the west started saying... that

English/French/Germans may not be better than everyone, but Whites are

Basically the other concept (Japanese are Better than everyone or Greeks are Better than everyone) is not called racism because Japanese/Greeks are not considered a 'race'...If they are considered a 'race', then racism is a nearly universal human belief that has only only recently begun to decline.
Don't be absurd. Racism is not a Western idea, it is a human one. People have been discriminating against each other based upon looks or nation of origin for millenia, it's hardly a Western phenomena, and painting it as such is ridiculous.
 
I find Tokugawa being protective very....well, odd. Ditto for Mao. Phi/Org was more fitting, perhaps even Phi/Exp. It should be said that China, for a large part of its history, has indeed focused on protecting itself from the various steppe peoples to its north. It has built walls, sought to control the Huang He(Yellow River) basin city of Turfan and generally keep peoples like the Xiong Nu in line. It never showed any interest in actually conquering them...indeed, Han China's borders are remarkably similiar to the border's of modern China, and the Chinese were more interested in securing nominal tributes from southeast Asian kingdoms then conquer them. They interfered with Hideyoshi's invasion of Korea(and later, McArthur's invasion of Korea) largely because they were concerned with their own safety(and China has always had a reputation for meddling with Korea in particular), fearing that they were next after the Koreans(given MacArthur's temperment and Hideoyoshi's ambitions, it probably wasn't far off).

China acted the way it did, because, unlike its tiny European counterparts, it was never really wanting for land(mainly just horses and security for its long borders), so saying that the Chinese as a people are Protective isn't too far off the mark. Saying Mao is Protective...well...I would say no. If Qin is, that's a travesty. Yang Zheng, brutal conqueror and the ruthless Qin Shi Huang Di, Protective? Now THAT is a joke...

Elrohir said:
Don't be absurd. Racism is not a Western idea, it is a human one. People have been discriminating against each other based upon looks or nation of origin for millenia, it's hardly a Western phenomena, and painting it as such is ridiculous.
Indeed. When China went to negotiate peace with Hideyoshi over the Korean conflict, he expected to be treated as an equal. However, the Chinese treated him as an inferior, offering only their recognition of him as ruler of Japan(really impressive to the folks at home!) and their customary demand of tribute, despite the fact the war was at a stalemate. They treated every people they came across with the same disrespect. In that regard, peoples like the Aztec weren't any better...
 
People who believe that racism has been around since the dawn of civilization are confusing race and ethnicity. In the ancient times, of course civilizations would fight with one another based on the sense of local identity (but also local authority). By the middle ages, world religions allowed people to transcend local identity and find broader networks of cooperation -- such as the Crusades. But ideas of race were pretty much inconsequential.

It was only by 1600 or so that they constructed the notion of the White Race, where the French and Germans and English and Dutch (who had faught each other for centuries) were now part of one big happy family. ... and they needed to defend that family from the threat of other Races.

Get yourself an education:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=4343452&postcount=180
 
dh_epic said:
People who believe that racism has been around since the dawn of civilization are confusing race and ethnicity. In the ancient times, of course civilizations would fight with one another based on the sense of local identity (but also local authority). By the middle ages, world religions allowed people to transcend local identity and find broader networks of cooperation -- such as the Crusades. But ideas of race were pretty much inconsequential.

It was only by 1600 or so that they constructed the notion of the White Race, where the French and Germans and English and Dutch (who had faught each other for centuries) were now part of one big happy family. ... and they needed to defend that family from the threat of other Races.

Get yourself an education:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=4343452&postcount=180

but like you had to say 'its arguable'. the term 'race' was invented before the concept of a 'white race', and its very arguable that once blacks and asians, etc were well documented it was natural to set europeans as grouped together as all distinctly not black or asian--and this just marked the first time 'race' as a term was distinctively important in politics. and its not as if ethnic strife between europeans disappeared when 'race' was made important or that there were no ethnic or cultural similarities between otherwise ethnically distinct europeans. its just a matter of what distinctly constituted a race in people's minds, which became very scientifically-oriented at one point.
 
dh_epic said:
People who believe that racism has been around since the dawn of civilization are confusing race and ethnicity. In the ancient times, of course civilizations would fight with one another based on the sense of local identity (but also local authority). By the middle ages, world religions allowed people to transcend local identity and find broader networks of cooperation -- such as the Crusades. But ideas of race were pretty much inconsequential.

It was only by 1600 or so that they constructed the notion of the White Race, where the French and Germans and English and Dutch (who had faught each other for centuries) were now part of one big happy family. ... and they needed to defend that family from the threat of other Races.

Get yourself an education:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=4343452&postcount=180

But religions were not "worldwide" at the times you're claiming they were, and between countries and groups there has been constant warfare both prior to and after the "white race" becoming a dominant idea, and the world was not absolutely unified along religious lines at any point - and often, where divisions appeared between religiously unified people, it was along lines of racial (or ethnic) distinctiveness).

Also, if you're going to talk about how the Germans, English, and Dutch all of the sudden became a "big happy families" (an outright stupid oversimplification of the situation) why not take a look at this century and Communism, which made various Asian and Caucasian groupings "one big happy family" - another outright stupid oversimplification, but keeping in line with your thinking... Where is this oppressive, divisive idea of the "White Race" dividing the world along racial lines? It's there, of course, just secondary to some degree, and for a time, it took a back seat to a unifying principle - much the same as religious unification of past centuries, bet it in Caucasian or other countries.

The idea that "white" people invented racism is ludicrous. Particular forms of it may have originated with caucasian peoples, but then again, the same can be said about peoples all over the world. Human beings - not just white ones - have never needed much excuse to divide themselves as groups and devalue/persecute others on the bases of perceived differences.
 
Krikkitone said:
Actually the only Earth shakers in Asia have been the Mongols and the Turks... (politically/militarily) or the Semites and the Indians...(philosophically)

China was never an earthshaker in Asia, it never projected any power outside its own region until the last 20 years or so... and the Japanese only did so for a few years in WWII

I guess this is exactly the mind set that I have problem with. A civ is considered by people like you to be significant only when it is an "earthshaker", or in more explicit terms, when it has influence on the Europeans.

What have the "imperalistic" Romans done on Asians? Why Alexander the Great is considered the "Great" and "aggressive"? Why Qin is only considered a "protective", not imperialistic or aggressive, regional power in comparison? As I mentioned before, if Roman or Greek armies ever had a chance to confront Qin's army, good chance is the Roman and Greek armies would lose.

Remember the nomadic tribes like XiongNu were steamrolled by the army of Han Dynasty. Although it's debatable, I still believe the Huns like Attila that later caused so much troubles to the Europeans were related to the defeated tribal races that were forced to migrate to the West by the Chinese Han armies because militaristically speaking they were too alike. Maybe Chinese have never directly attacked the Europeans, they probably have at least set up a major headache for them.
 
the issue is whether race only came into existence with racial theories, or nations only came into existence with nationalist philosophies, which some people will argue. i think its a not a complete understanding though.
 
gettingfat said:
I guess this is exactly the mind set that I have problem with. A civ is considered by people like you to be significant only when it is an "earthshaker", or in more explicit terms, when it has influence on the Europeans.

What have the "imperalistic" Romans done on Asians? Why Alexander the Great is considered the "Great" and "aggressive"? Why Qin is only considered a "protective", not imperialistic or aggressive, regional power in comparison? As I mentioned before, if Roman or Greek armies ever had a chance to confront Qin's army, good chance is the Roman and Greek armies would lose.

Remember the nomadic tribes like XiongNu were steamrolled by the army of Han Dynasty. Although it's debatable, I still believe the Huns like Attila that later caused so much troubles to the Europeans were related to the defeated tribal races that were forced to migrate to the West by the Chinese Han armies because militaristically speaking they were too alike. Maybe Chinese have never directly attacked the Europeans, they probably have at least set up a major headache for them.

do you think the type of military agression that entailed unifying the warring states in china is essentially the same as the type of miliary agression alexander the great used in extending conquests throughout the continent?

in some sense i dont think that civilization as a game is able to give any of the leaders proper traits [i dont agree with other traits for other leaders]. i think what they might be doing is trying to make them act more like the historical counterparts on a global scale which in some ways may be more of a judgment of the civilization than the individual and might not be a good one at that, either. its just a fault of the game
 
gettingfat said:
I guess this is exactly the mind set that I have problem with. A civ is considered by people like you to be significant only when it is an "earthshaker", or in more explicit terms, when it has influence on the Europeans.

What have the "imperalistic" Romans done on Asians? Why Alexander the Great is considered the "Great" and "aggressive"? Why Qin is only considered a "protective", not imperialistic or aggressive, regional power in comparison? As I mentioned before, if Roman or Greek armies ever had a chance to confront Qin's army, good chance is the Roman and Greek armies would lose.

Remember the nomadic tribes like XiongNu were steamrolled by the army of Han Dynasty. Although it's debatable, I still believe the Huns like Attila that later caused so much troubles to the Europeans were related to the defeated tribal races that were forced to migrate to the West by the Chinese Han armies because militaristically speaking they were too alike. Maybe Chinese have never directly attacked the Europeans, they probably have at least set up a major headache for them.

The way I interpret the leader trains aggressive/protective - in game - is this... It refers to unit strengths, primarily, rather than the traits of the leader.

In game, I do not find Tokes or the Incans to ever be all that aggressive - in fact, I know I see them declare war only a fraction of the number of times that I see a non-aggressive Civ like Julius Ceaser or Isabella do so. If Tokes being aggressive referred to the leader's habits, the leader's foreign policy, it wouldn't make sense to give that AI that trait, simply because he isn't that aggressive - but if you take "aggressive" as referring to what units made by this Civ are looked at as being strong for...

My interpretation of why Qin was made protective rather than aggressive is... What units are the Chinese famous for (or being recognized as famous for in the game at least)? Cho'Ko-nu. Archers. Frankly, I don't know enough about Korea to say about them (though I am LOVING Wang Kon's protective trait) and I'm a bit hazy on China and Japan - but, from what I see in game, aggressive does not always correlate with how aggressive the AI actually plays a Civ. It rather correlates with a certain type of units being strong in comparison to another type.

Now, you can choose to look at the Asian leaders being protective as incorrectly saying that they were isolationist, protectionist, etc, and stereotyping groups... Or you can look at it as a comment on the types of units they were famous for in large scale warfare. I'm not entirely sure this is Western closedmindedness myself.
 
AfterShafter said:
as incorrectly saying that they were isolationist, protectionist, etc, and stereotyping groups... Or you can look at it as a comment on the types of units they were famous for in large scale warfare. I'm not entirely sure this is Western closedmindedness myself.

ya. lincoln was in modern terms a protectionist and isolationist, btw; it just doesn't make sense for a game trait.
 
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