First build

[tbplayer59]

I'm reading Sisiutil's strategy guide and came across this statement regarding the first training / build .
"Many players prefer to build a Warrior first , timing the build by changing the tile worked by the capital's first citizen so that the unit is finished on the same turn that the city grows to size 2."
Can someone please explain the mechanics of how this is done and why it's important? I guess I'm a little fuzzy on the relationship between city size and the number of units . Thanks in advance!

 

[Jellybug]

That guide is a kind of useful primer for the game, but is somewhat outdated or flat out wrong at some points. Worker at size one is usually optimal because of the massive jump between improved vs unimproved resource tile yields. The worker improves the food, which allows for faster growth. E.G. wet corn with a farm improvement is a 6 food yield, which is twice the unimproved yield of 3 food. So you lose nothing by going for a worker first and getting the food hooked up pronto. Even dry corn, you lose one food vs growing, but that's assuming the new citizen has a 3food tile to work, and forgetting that the worker can, soon after completing the farm, go and improve other resources.

The guide advises going warrior first and juggling tiles because it wants you to get to size two as quickly as possible and then use the extra citizen to (I think) build a worker. Hammers in uncompleted units decay beginnning in ten turns, so you might lose some hammers in the warrior if you didn't complete the warrior before starting the worker, or delay some turns on the worker if you grew to size two before completing the warrior.

In practice though, you can't really go wrong going worker first ninety five percent of the time. The exceptions are certain seafood-only starts (in which case you'll want to build a workboat or, if you don't have fishing, a warrior while researching fishing), where a worker would have no food resources to improve. Or else maybe you're imperialistic, have a woodland plains hill, and your capital is so bad you just want another settler to get a better spot ASAP, but that's only happened to me a few times.

 

[sampsa]

Fippy's beginner help thread https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/beginner-help-the-basics.648469/
and Lain's youtube channel https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCBiPHqnZ3mwIqtraltox6jg
is what you need if you are interested in learning how to play this game properly. Oh and of course this forum, where many helpful people will answer your questions.

 

[tbplayer59]

Thanks for the reply. Where I'm unclear is the "juggling" of tiles, as you described it and why finishing that build on the same turn that the city is going to grow is important .

That guide is a kind of useful primer for the game, but is somewhat outdated or flat out wrong at some points. Worker at size one is usually optimal because of the massive jump between improved vs unimproved resource tile yields. The worker improves the food, which allows for faster growth. E.G. wet corn with a farm improvement is a 6 food yield, which is twice the unimproved yield of 3 food. So you lose nothing by going for a worker first and getting the food hooked up pronto. Even dry corn, you lose one food vs growing, but that's assuming the new citizen has a 3food tile to work, and forgetting that the worker can, soon after completing the farm, go and improve other resources.

The guide advises going warrior first and juggling tiles because it wants you to get to size two as quickly as possible and then use the extra citizen to (I think) build a worker. Hammers in uncompleted units decay beginnning in ten turns, so you might lose some hammers in the warrior if you didn't complete the warrior before starting the worker, or delay some turns on the worker if you grew to size two before completing the warrior.

In practice though, you can't really go wrong going worker first ninety five percent of the time. The exceptions are certain seafood-only starts (in which case you'll want to build a workboat or, if you don't have fishing, a warrior while researching fishing), where a worker would have no food resources to improve. Or else maybe you're imperialistic, have a woodland plains hill, and your capital is so bad you just want another settler to get a better spot ASAP, but that's only happened to me a few times.

 

[lymond]

Thanks for the reply. Where I'm unclear is the "juggling" of tiles, as you described it and why finishing that build on the same turn that the city is going to grow is important .

Point is that that advice is irrelevant and wrong. Ignore completely

If you are learning just build worker first which one would do over 95% of the time anyway.

Sis’s article is decent as a basic primer to acclimate to the game but is quite outdated, and wrong on many things

 

[rah]

Yes, the concept of worker first can be tested quite quickly. Start a game and do worker first then play the same start and do one with warrior first, It won't take more than 10 minutes to see which is the superior start. Very few starts will show otherwise.

 

[Tobiyogi]

If you are ready to ruin some relations early on you can also go and grab a worker (best chances on Pangea). Under certain circumstances, I would at least CONSIDER to go warrior first, for example settling on a plains hill and growing on a 3-tile so that warrior + growth are both finished in 8T and you can start on a worker/workboat at size 2. If you had only a scout so far and your starting techs are badly adapted to the land, that kind of opening is even more considerable. But not as a prescription, I would evaluate every game individually.

 

[Windsor]

Where I'm unclear is the "juggling" of tiles, as you described it and why finishing that build on the same turn that the city is going to grow is important

If you're building a regular unit and plan to build a settler or worker next, then you might want to switch tiles so that growth and current build finishes on the same turn. A warrior takes 15 hammers and growing takes 22 food. Sometimes you can find a combination where you reach 15 hammers and 22 food on same turn instead of say 23 food and 14 hammers (so you don't have to spend another turn on building the warrior while the extra food isn't going to give you anything or you'll have to wait until the worker is done before resuming the warrior). So it's just about optimizing the worked tiles.

Occasionally juggling tiles can give you a small advantage compared to not doing it. But for anyone at monarch or below, this isn't where you win or lose the game.

 

[Tobiyogi]

@tbplayer59

I once did a compared opening on NC 228 with Frederick. If you are interested you can see my results below. Or simply do your own comparison which is much better of course.

---------------------
So here comes my compared gameplay or "teaching" on Immortal

Spoiler T44: Growing to size 2 on a warrior, worker steal, no mod :

At T44, i am in no bad position, 2 cities at size 3/1, started right now on a next settler, BW/fish/agri/wheel/pottery (-1turn). 3 workers and 3 warriors. All fronts are quite safe against barbs. Have to admit that all combats went very well, so this situation is really ideal. Took a worker from Pacal, could even destroy 2 farms, kill a scout and make peace again. Due to pillage money, I could also research slightly better.

Spoiler T45: Building worker first, no FISHING, Bat mod :

Building worker while going for Agri. I assumed not to know that there is copper, so I did not adapt my worker moves beforehand. I would have gone for BW as a 2nd tech anyway, because otherwise there would be no hill to mine. When the tech came in, i first finished my chop on the western hill and then went for the copper mine. Due to lack of stolen worker, I connected my cities later. This time, I placed Hamburg more to the west in order to grab the cows later. I have the same techs, but no Fishing. Started already on AH. Research is slightly worse, no pillage money, later connection of cities. But cities have better size and in berlin, i have already put 50H into next settler. Vulnerable to barbs on the eastern "front" but could whip a Spear in Hamburg.

It's tough to decide which position is better. On a pure economic basis, without worker steal and stuff, I would definitely say, going worker first and avoiding FISH is better, because I work the clams only part-time anyway and it's only 1 clam in a good position while there are 2 AH resources and AH brings me closer to Writing.

Forgot to say that in my 2nd attempt, I also tried to get a worker from "someone" but he didn't show up so kindly on the borders. I suppose having an early warrior makes a stealing more likely and that's a plus for the first strategy.

 

[Tobiyogi]

Here is a game where it was debatable to go worker first, because no Fishing yet, no "naked" hill to mine, what to chop?

Edit: To be honest, even in that case, it was an okay decision but I would have probably mined a forested hill first to avoid putting 2 chops into warriors...

 

[rah]

It's hard to know at turn 1 if a worker steal is going to be likely.
Most of the time I go into a game thinking I'll try that, I come up with nothing.
And If I can settle on a plains hill and crank that worker out in 12 turns or less, I'll be improving faster than if I build a warrior first and get him out (assuming starting with a scout) Nice if you can nab a worker but a bit risky in my book. But what do I know.
Now if I settle on a hill and I can immediately see a neighbors border, than I'll think differently.

 

[Tobiyogi]

I am not convinced neither of worker steal. At least, I would not sacrifice a good, obvious start with adapted starting techs for this. Only something to be considered if anything else is to slow and I know it is some pangea-like map. Or Always War. Or little number of land tiles,etc.... such close borders can also be tricky, sometimes you won't able to make peace again and then you are archer-rushed.

 

[rah]

If I'm HC, I'm more likely to go that route.

 

[Tobiyogi]

I am little bit under the influence of Absolute Zero's YT videos that I used to watch a lot. He stole workers quite frequently but I suspect that he knew those maps before. In that case, it is much more likely, but not necesseraly recommanded imo.