First Jaguar Promotion

[Desk Jockey]

Hey all, I'm playing a game with Monty (my favorite leader) and pumping Jags out of my military city with a barracks. I'm building up to go to war with Roosevelt (noble skill level btw) and he's got archers defending his cities, usually 3 or so.

I was wondering out of the box is it more better to give my city attacking Jags the City Raider 1 promotion or give them Cover 1 instead when facing the archers?


Thanks in advance!

 

[madscientist]

Bring your jags unpromoted. Assumt the first few will die so promote them to cover just before battle. When you feel the odds are in your Jag's favor, switch to CR I so that when they win they can get promoted to CR II and be even more deadly.

I agree about old Monty, one of my favorite war-mongers after Ghengi Khan.

 

[Zanttu]

Give 1 or 2 of them the Woodsman II promotion, to make them better stack defenders. Later you can give them Woodsman III so they also heal other units. Don't promote other units when you get them built, promote them just before the first battle. First few attackers get Cover to get higher odds in the battle. These guys should soften the archers a bit. After the odds start climbing over 50%, start giving CR promotions.

 

[Desk Jockey]

Cool, thanks for the quick responses

I wouldn't have thought of doing it that way....

 

[Defiant47]

Jaguars are only good for one thing: supermedics. Otherwise, they fail utterly at everything*. I guess they're slightly better at attacking cities with archers in them than axeman, but that benefit so small, that you might as well build axemen*. So you should promote Jaguars such that they get woodsman* and medic promotions and attach Great Generals in order to get the coveted Woodsman III Medic III superhealers.

* - They are also good at quickly rushing an opponent. This makes Woodsman II that much more desirable in order to get to the enemy faster.

If you want to give your Jaguars promotions like cover, strength, and city raider, then you should be building Axemen instead (unless you somehow managed to have neither copper nor iron).

 

[Desk Jockey]

Yeah, in this particular game neither copper or iron is available to me yet Hence knocking on Roosevelts door to "borrow" some

 

[madscientist]

Jaguars are only good for one thing: supermedics. Otherwise, they fail utterly at everything*. I guess they're slightly better at attacking cities with archers in them than axeman, but that benefit so small, that you might as well build axemen*. So you should promote Jaguars such that they get woodsman* and medic promotions and attach Great Generals in order to get the coveted Woodsman III Medic III superhealers.

* - They are also good at quickly rushing an opponent. This makes Woodsman II that much more desirable in order to get to the enemy faster.

If you want to give your Jaguars promotions like cover, strength, and city raider, then you should be building Axemen instead (unless you somehow managed to have neither copper nor iron).

I disagree. Aside from supermedics, they are excellent at early rushing. refer to my RPC: MONTY game.

Non-medic uses of Jags.

1) They can man forrests and jungles which are abundent enough early on. Cut an enemy road between cities or resources and man a Jag or 2, very tough to reconnect.
2) They need no iron, just the tech. This means you can jump on an AI very fast, often before they get axes up.
3) They beat chariots.
4) MONTY is agressive so they start with 2 free promotions, combat I and Woodsman I allowing the most versatility of any UU except perhaps Churchhills redcoats. Both of those free promotions stick with the unit throughout the game if it's promoted.
5) Woodsman II Jags move twice as fast in enemy forrests making them great at hitting behind the lines (second only to Keshiks IMHO).
6) They are more efficient at attacking cities than axes because of the +10% city attack.

Enough of bashing a very good (not the greatest I agree) UU just because it is 5 instead of 6 combat units.

 

[Defiant47]

I disagree. Aside from supermedics, they are excellent at early rushing. refer to my RPC: MONTY game.

Read the fine print
(I mentioned that)

Non-medic uses of Jags.

1) They can man forrests and jungles which are abundent enough early on. Cut an enemy road between cities or resources and man a Jag or 2, very tough to reconnect.

Usually I find it more useful to use the fast movement of any group of units to get to the city faster and attack sooner in order to face fewer defenders and defense bonuses.

2) They need no iron, just the tech. This means you can jump on an AI very fast, often before they get axes up.

Usually by the time you finish researching bronze working, you wouldn't be too far away from hooking up a source of copper. I guess you have a point if you end up without copper anywhere nearby and you're prioritizing speed above all.

3) They beat chariots.

As do axemen. (and we'll assume that you carry at least one spearman in your stack for protection, especially once you've noticed horses in the hands of the enemy)

4) MONTY is agressive so they start with 2 free promotions, combat I and Woodsman I allowing the most versatility of any UU except perhaps Churchhills redcoats. Both of those free promotions stick with the unit throughout the game if it's promoted.

Monty's axeman would also start with Combat I (which also lasts throughout the game), so that's a moot point. Woodsman I free promotion allows the Jaguar to unleash its two potentials:

- Supermedic (Woodsman III, Medic III combo)
- Superrush (as opposed to a regular rush with units* that will continue to benefit you in the long run)

* - Axemen

5) Woodsman II Jags move twice as fast in enemy forrests making them great at hitting behind the lines (second only to Keshiks IMHO).

Hitting behind the lines is not that useful, IMO, especially if you're using them for rushing (which you should be if you're using them at all). Usually it's more useful to just march right onto the cities and take them. Of course, it's very useful to flank the city to make sure it doesn't get additional defenders, but there's no time to wait when you're rushing (especially as there's no waiting to be done without siege weapons). By the time you reach the point in the game where it's useful to wait when you've arrived at the gates of the enemy city (such as you now have catapults), the enemy has likely nicely countered the Jaguars with some Axemen, or more ironically, Swordsmen, and you can likely build some horse archers (which have strength 6).

6) They are more efficient at attacking cities than axes because of the +10% city attack.

I noted that. I say that this small bonus is far outweighed by the complete versatility of the axeman.

Enough of bashing a very good (not the greatest I agree) UU just because it is 5 instead of 6 combat units.

Unfortunately, combat odds are very shifty. A slight increase in ratio can yield a comparatively much higher change in odds. So yes, 1 strength out of 6 is big. At least swordsman can put up a fight against axeman by using city raider. Jaguars have no hope.

Like I said, superrush (which I don't feel is a good idea in most cases) or supermedic. And let me tell you, I love playing Aztecs for the supermedics! It makes a huge difference to have your units heal (almost completely) in two turns in enemy lands!!

 

[Jet]

See the button with the skull and crossbones? Give them that.

 

[Gliese 581]

See the button with the skull and crossbones? Give them that.

Oh yes, I agree!

 

[Defiant47]

See the button with the skull and crossbones? Give them that.

Not at all! In fact, I like building plenty and plenty of Jaguars! No, they're not for war or combat, but they are useful at preventing wars - they have a large amount of Power graph boost compared to other units (I forgot how much exactly). So if you're building and want to be left alone, build a whole whack of them.

 

[Jet]

The inner workings of the Demo screen explained says in Vanilla a Jaguar was worth the same as a Praetorian or Pikeman, but now is worth the same as an Axeman or Swordsman.

 

[absimiliard]

I like building Jags when you have a barracks and run either theocracy, fairly common for me, or feudalism, less common by a long shot.

Woodsman III out of the gate. Quite effective enough.

-abs

 

[Gliese 581]

I've always thought the power rating doesn't make sense, praets should give more power for example.. many UUs and UBs also seem to give an undeserved boost to power.

 

[Desk Jockey]

Well, like them or hate them or whatever, I used the promotion advice and wiped the Americans from N. America completely using just Jaguars (playing 18 civ earth map). Must have taken/razed seven cities when it was all said and done.

N. America is now completely under Aztec control thanks to them!

Thanks for the advice again and happy gaming.

 

[Zanttu]

Usually by the time you finish researching bronze working, you wouldn't be too far away from hooking up a source of copper.

I disagree. maybe we have different kind of map generators, but I get copper close by only in about half of my games.

 

[Artichoker]

The problem with the Jaguar is not that it's a bad unit, but that having the Jaguar as a UU takes away access to the Swordsman.

Because in some cases it's better to have a unit with raw strength, like the Swordsman with its 6 strength, instead of a slightly weaker unit with lots of razzle-dazzle abilities.

 

[Defiant47]

The inner workings of the Demo screen explained says in Vanilla a Jaguar was worth the same as a Praetorian or Pikeman, but now is worth the same as an Axeman or Swordsman.

Ah, never mind then.

I disagree. maybe we have different kind of map generators, but I get copper close by only in about half of my games.

Bear in mind that the Aztecs start with hunting, so you get a scout. This means that you can explore more land faster, which mean you'll more likely see a source of copper somewhere when you get Bronze Working (and if you're planning to war/rush, then you'll probably go for it).

 

[Zanttu]

Bear in mind that the Aztecs start with hunting, so you get a scout. This means that you can explore more land faster, which mean you'll more likely see a source of copper somewhere when you get Bronze Working (and if you're planning to war/rush, then you'll probably go for it).

The problem isn't that I wouldn't have scouted enough to see copper, the problem is that there isn't copper close enough. And no, I won't settle my 2nd city 30 tiles away from my capital!

 

[Defiant47]

The problem isn't that I wouldn't have scouted enough to see copper, the problem is that there isn't copper close enough. And no, I won't settle my 2nd city 30 tiles away from my capital!

Well, if there isn't any copper close enough, that's your own fault