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First Prime Faction

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Demo Game IV: Polls' started by DaveShack, Mar 27, 2008.

?

Which shall be the Prime Faction?

Poll closed Mar 30, 2008.
  1. Timus the Protector

    5 vote(s)
    12.2%
  2. Triad Coalition

    24 vote(s)
    58.5%
  3. Tribal Council

    12 vote(s)
    29.3%
  1. DaveShack

    DaveShack Inventor Retired Moderator

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    This comment is more for the Triad, but Metho's quote is a handy place to hang my comment...

    As long as everyone includes people who can't or don't want to role play, and "interested" means having something to do that doesn't involve just waiting until representation, I'll be satisfied.
     
  2. croxis

    croxis Chat room op

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    That is what I am pushing for. However even in previous demo games when I'd try to participate I felt left out, uninterested, and ineffective. The objectives of factions is to help bring the scale down for people. While an individual may feel they lack a voice at the national level they would have a greater one in the faction they join.
     
  3. Provolution

    Provolution Sage of Quatronia

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    I hear very much what Croxis is saying. The old demogames had a sort of priest class everyone had to listen to at all times. Now people can carve out their own thing and put it up for election without being overruled by some elite.
     
  4. DaveShack

    DaveShack Inventor Retired Moderator

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    This is untrue, unless you're referring to WOTP.

    This is saying exactly what I don't want to hear.

    Everyone must have some influence on the actual game. Telling us to just plot an overthrow in our faction thread and leave you all alone until the next election doesn't cut it. Tribal Council guarantees that we have no intention of saying that to Triad, but I see nothing concrete the other direction.
     
  5. Provolution

    Provolution Sage of Quatronia

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    Everyone is not everyone as such. Influences differ much from person to person, and based on interest and available time. There should be consequences to winning an election, and losing an election, not just be appointed to some arbitrary secretary being at the mercy of the loudest posters that knows how to spin you. If that is democracy, please make that a platform and gain enough support for it, I assume that is quite doable, as there are some players preferring that way.

    As Shattered told in another thread, there will be some influence on the game also for non-faction members, but not as much as for faction members. I can safely assume the same would apply if Tribal Council wins, some players would not get the same ear for proposals, simply because they think differently, got different objectives and different focus areas and even got some prehistory impacting the attention a player seeks.

    I guess many have experienced that they get various responses from various leaders at various times, and you always see that some players treat other players more favorably on a regular basis. We see that all the time. Even the process of setting up the game settings proves that point. The only fair way to mitigate that is by faction elections. If some players feel the system too simplistic, too oppressive, too bland, too structured, too chaotic, too predictable, too unpredictable and too complex, they simple use their time in opposition to formulate another platform and muster enough support to replace the other platform. The side incapable of keeping up the interest in their own faction, is bound to get less votes the next time around.

    In other words, we should promote the social experience in a competitive setting by building this around factions, not some arbitrary notion of what is "normal", as that vary wildly by age, nationality, profession, personality, temper and interests.

    Making factions decide the structure is still the most fair way to do it.
     
  6. DaveShack

    DaveShack Inventor Retired Moderator

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    With your history of telling people to buzz off when you're an official, I would think that some other member of the triad might be a better carrier for your banner.

    On this forum, everyone is everyone, or at least that's my opinion.
     
  7. Provolution

    Provolution Sage of Quatronia

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    Well, you cannot censor me, so I feel free "to carry the banner", like any other Triad faction member. I am within forum rules with this one as well.

    You got no right to declare me a personal quarantine over that particular event, and most of the time I did listen to players, as I have done in this game and in helping build up the Warlords Faction. I honesty think this indeed is a personal conflict, and has nothing to do with the three options presented here. I hope this conflict will end, as least it will from my side, so that we can focus on the game within the new faction rules. I know the outcome may feel a bit frustrating, but there will be other elections.

    The thing you referred to was a singular occasion from summer 2007, a lesson I learnt from, I apologized and did not repeat that action since, and I thought that was now considered part of the past. I am not an official here, so please be so kind and leave past demogames out, I am quite certain that I am not the only one that did mistakes. I would rather like a focus now on the ruleset, coalition and general direction of the Triad.

    For example, I am not bringing up the time where you restarted the demogame a couple of times back in 2005 due a technical mistake, or other times you did mistakes, when I even voted for you the term after, as that is irrelevant here. This election is about the ruleset and how to play term one, not about delivering awards and penalties for past games, and to hand out credit and discredit to individuals.

    If your problem is with me as a player, please tell me (or us) that in another setting. Blaming me for past events in prior demogames signals that the case for Tribals is weak, as I got to serve as the scapegoat for all wrongs.

    You have done a good number of mistakes as I have done, and other players made mistakes as well, no question about it. Now, let us focus on this game alone, and not make this a popularity contest based on past game actions.

    Let us focus on the three options at hand please.
     
  8. DaveShack

    DaveShack Inventor Retired Moderator

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    If 30 (or even 26) of the roughly 50 people here say they want to do something, the wise and noble Chief will do what they say. The message of the Triad is that no matter how many people want a thing, if the leader does not want it then it will not happen.

    If this is incorrect, then please enlighten us.

    The Chief will always respond respectfully to the input from any member of the tribe, not just the Council. The Triad message is that Triad members will be heard and others may plot their rebellion of they don't like it.

    If this is incorrect, please enlighten us.
     
  9. Provolution

    Provolution Sage of Quatronia

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    It is correct what you say Daveshack, but there is more to it you decided to leave out, faction cities, more positions with functions, more active factions internally, better internal organization, narratives, identity and the development of various integrated
    subgames many of the players would cater to, sustaining same identities.

    Each faction got their internal processes that makes it good to remain in those factions, these are more democratic than you think, just different from what you are used to.

    This is what the vast majority would like, and they would like Shattered to be the one to follow as it stands. It also help to bring in some new players to take the lead as well.

    You can single me out for personal attack all you want, but the Triad system is a much better system in many regards.
     
  10. DaveShack

    DaveShack Inventor Retired Moderator

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    Are you sure you mean this? That it is expected that Triad will be disrespectful to citizens? It is expected that Triad will turn a deaf ear even if an overwhelming majority wants something?

    No, I'm singling out the thought that it is ok to ignore citizen input, which the Triad seems to embrace. You happen to be a handy example of someone who has done exactly what I want to avoid. Cyc and donsig did it too, a long time before you arrived. There have been others too.

    Edit: Let me add, that I don't disagree with a roleplay base and have no problem with leadership which leads. I have a specific problem with statements here and elsewhere which imply (to me at least) that once Triad is in power the rest of us might as well just take a vacation.
     
  11. Provolution

    Provolution Sage of Quatronia

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    I will not speak on behalf of Shattered, or for that matter NZL and Strider. But we got a chain of command, not a syndicalist commune, and we will respect that. They are elected, so its their responsibility to make the right decisions, and if they fail, well, there will be a change in government by election time. So, I am not speaking for the new leadership that will take over, they will manage their own decisions.

    However, as each faction got a contract with our faction leader, and each faction leader is part of the Triad, of course their prime support base is their respective factions.
    Non-faction members will have to influence the in-game environment by making good research that is useful, by proposing alternate moves they themselves must research, not demand it in an intimidating tone we have seen before. The Leader would be in the full right to make an action/instruction on his own, and the burden of evidence to influence that decision would be from the critic, not the leader. Even the press today needs to investigate, research and well document a story before they ask a minister to resign, only in the last two demogames it has been a convention that very demanding citizens can crucify a leader over an intended move without lifting a finger in research.

    I would also like to see Cyc and Donsig back again, as they were fun and intelligent posters and good with a strong narrative theme. I do not begrudge their past and think they would help enrich the game, now that the Judiciary is gone.

    So, Triad would not ignore non-faction citizen input (Faction members are of course listened to through the election result). However, from now on a small group of citizens cannot raise hell and assume command over the government by making polls for the smallest decisions, like in some hippie collective of sorts. Such a weak government would ruin some of ours roleplaying experience, and not be true to the civics we represent.

    So, in opposition, you can make better proposals than the official for handling specific situations, and persuade the official to adopt your wants. If you are in opposition, you may need to research these alternate more, not merely demand both the research and the action from the official and behave as the official and his/her mandate is your private property. The faction system ensures some stability of regime, until people want to replace them. So if you want to get more votes, work more on the platform, recruit people, give players interesting tasks and communities, narratives and so on. There is not much votes to get from harming old Provo, saying Triad is bad and referring to X amounts of demogames and past demogame players most new players have not heard about.

    I am quite sure a good number here give a damn about past demogame lore, and would much prefer a good, narrative solution based on Civ4 BTS, and not the history of a handful demogamers.
     
  12. Shattered

    Shattered Lord of Utopia

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    The only one "expecting" the Triad to be absolute and disrespectful is you, DS. Do you honestly think that I, as their leader, would ignore the populace's pleas and ideas? Sure I would, if I didn't want to be in power anymore. If I wanted the populace to rebel, then I would turn a deaf ear to the "majority". As it stands though, unless a huge number of citizens call for something, the Triads word is law. I am not unsympathetic towards those not in my faction, and will even have my members open up threads, as some of them may need help or ideas from the citizens. What I do not see is constant voting for every aspect of the game. Should a citizen want to influence the game, have them contact a faction member with an idea. If its good enough, then it might be used, credit going to the citizen of course. We plan to host, or make, many non-governmental activities for the populace to slake its thirst for roleplay. So if its your #1 perogative to absolutely want to be in power without being in a faction, then I'm sorry to say that won't happen in this core system. At least not for a while. The Triad is three factions with three slices of power in our nation. That means that if we win, you will have three different factions to choose from, should you want say in the government.
    Otherwise, there are still going to be a great many things for citizens to do once the map is generated. Basicly, all I'm saying is, you don't have to be in control to have fun.

    There is talk in my faction about letting Followers appoint non-faction members as Apprentices should no one in our faction join. This is another avenue one could take should they want power.

    I would also like to thank Provolution for standing up for the Triad's way. Anyone who does this is a banner carrier in my eyes.
     
  13. DaveShack

    DaveShack Inventor Retired Moderator

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    You haven't said either way -- that is the point. A simple "yes we will provide a way for all to be heard" a page ago would have been sufficent. Your followers seem to think my fears are well grounded. :rolleyes:
     
  14. Provolution

    Provolution Sage of Quatronia

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    Between elections, citizens will be heard, with their biggest asset in their proposals, recommendations, criticisms and so on, not the option to overrule a sovereign regime by a citizen poll (unless you make that a platform for later, but that is in effect more or less a traditional faction as I see it). Some want the citizen overrule poll, some wont. There is still a plethora of ways to be heard, and none of the Triad would object to listening. However, listening does not mean the Triad would accept it all.
    You wrote in your own platform you call the final shots, so do we (Shattered and the two others).


    But not having the sudden overrule poll does not mean the citizens cannot be heard, simply that a handful of rabblerousers must wait till they get into government before they call the shots, not overrule an existing governments plan (based on platform) by impulse and by for example whipping up an atmosphere of hostility towards an official.

    If a faction wins with such a ruleset, so be it. People want a change from established practice, that is very clear from where I stand.
     
  15. DaveShack

    DaveShack Inventor Retired Moderator

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    That's a little closer to what I'm hoping to see. It still falls short of "if most of the people want it we'll do it" like Tribal Council is saying.
     
  16. Provolution

    Provolution Sage of Quatronia

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    I think it is settled then, all here listens/reads forums, and take in new impulses and ideas across factions, no one is that anti-social I think. However, having a poll everything regime may just cause too much buzz and a polling fatigue. There is only so many polls people want every week, so we should not only appease to the poll enthusiasts. The main thing here, is to allow the leaders the liberty to take controversial actions, without worrying too much about metagame politics and delicate wording. Neither Shattered Strider or NZL are trained lawyers, or interested in pleading a case for powers they already got, however, they may ask for counsel and be open to good ideas. A good idea stands on its own merits, so no one will be excluded for who they are.

    One thing is to win the war (this election), but we also want a life afterwards in peace, and that means that all players will be involved enough in a capacity, to at least make the majority more interested. This is primarily about entertainment, not rights per se.
     
  17. pat123

    pat123 Warlord

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    I have a question for you Dave. Where do you live again? I am going to assume your sig is accurate and you live in the U.S, a representative democracy. Does your congressman hold a referendum everytime he votes on a bill? Does your governor hold a poll everytime he goes to work in the morning? NO! They have been elected to do a job, and they do it!

    And do you know why they don't run a dictatorship regime? B/c they have re-election to worry about! Why can't that same concept work here? Why do our representatives have to hold a poll every time they make a decision, but the ones in the real government don't?

    You trust politicians to do their jobs, to decide your taxes, to declare war, to run drafts, but you won't trust a non-politician to run a fake, totally irrelevant, pixelated government?!

    So, how about we try the whole representative democracy thing? It seems to do fairly well in real life, and there are no prostitutes in Civ4. :D
    And if you don't like how things are done, send a letter to your "congressman", or better yet, win the next time around!!!

    *burns soapbox* :D
     
  18. Provolution

    Provolution Sage of Quatronia

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    Hey buddy, what about that Beaver resource, that may count for something :)
     
  19. pat123

    pat123 Warlord

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    I prefer sheep myself...
     
  20. DaveShack

    DaveShack Inventor Retired Moderator

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    There are three (or more) layers to this game, the meta-game, the roleplay game, and the :bts: game.. In my concept of the meta-game layer, we are roleplaying being the representatives. The 50 or so of us will each represent thousands in the game. A legislative body does poll many things, that's how laws are passed.

    If you think I want to see everything polled, you are mistaken. Issues where few people care certainly don't need a poll. Issues where most people agree with the plan don't need a poll either. You will see many things have been decided here by consent. But when a poll is needed, it's needed.
     

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