First time FFH2 (Ljolsalfars)

spaghetti

Chieftain
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Hello,

after playing BTS since more than a year I tried FFH2 for the first time.
I was reading the thread How to get a strong start (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=329089) and was following JonathanStrange hints.
I took Ljolsalfars and had no issues to defend against Barbarians and AI (playing at Monarch level). But now I want to switch role from defender into attacker (capture a city of Decius (Bannor)).
Here I am failing since 2 hours and very frustrated. I have mages and the maelstorm spell, because siege weapons are not usable. It is possible to reduce opponents strenght by 30% but a 3.5 Axeman behind +80% City Walls is still too strong for my hunters and archers.

Questions:
1. How can I capture a city without loosing half of my units (in BTS I'm using catapults)?
2. When attacking Decius city, Assasins were killing my mages. Is there a way to protect them?

What shall I do? Please help...:cry:
 
Catapults wouldn't be a bad idea either, but the main problem is you're using the wrong units. Archers are city defense units, Hunters are exploration/worker harass units.

At least 50% of your own army should be axemen. And you should really have Champions (macemen) by the time you're facing 80% city defense.
 
Thanks.

After looking in civpedia I learned that Hunters have a -20% city attack value.

I will reload and switch research to Bronze working, because currently I am not able to build axemen. I'm helpless when facing the research options in FFH2 compared to BTS.

One question is still open:
How to protect my mages against Assasins?
 
caveat: I just recently started ff2 myself so i could be wrong. there's a promotion called either guardsman or defensive iirc that defends against marksmanship and gives a better chance of defending the stack; i think that's the only way i found for stopping assassins, and I don't know the pre-reqs for it. i've only seen the promotion available twice i think; i'm guessing i took defensive to open up the option for guardsman, and defensive required combat 2 or 3. also might only be available to melee or heroes, i'm getting old and senile :P all very hazy, hopefully someone can clear it up more as I like using mages myself and was getting quite a few assassinated last game.

optionally if you have the promotions to spare you can give them earth 2 for stoneskin which would at least give them a fighting chance of survival, but as the elves i hate wasting promotions on anything other than air, fire, spell extension and combat.
 
Protecting Mages could be done via Royal Guards if you've Aristocracy, or with spells like Stoneskin. I usually use the Guards because I often choose that civic anyway and it requires no long out-of-the-way research. I also will use Assassins to take out Assassins attacking my Mages.

Hunters and Archers are pitiful city attackers as you found out; I almost never use either in that role - unless my enemy was really weak or using light units for garrisons (scouts/javelineers). I do include Archers in my stack for defense and for immediate garrison of captured cities.

Elves don't have axemen, they do have swordsmen. When I go after cities, I make sure to have at least swordsmen with City Attacker promotions (I rarely wait for Champions, it's an expensive tech - a good one true - but not essential unless the game's going long). Elves are not great attackers, frankly, so I always use a mixed stack of swordsmen, mages, druids, assassins, etc. Fireballs and Maelstroms are must haves. In developing mana nodes, I prioritize an Air mana node (for faster access to Maelstrom), Fire Mana (for Fireballs), and Enchantment mana (Enchanted Blades, Fire Arrows to buff up melee and archer units).

The Ljos often have to play defense longer than most other civs, it seems to me. Their earliest military units - if you're heading for FoL - are defensive troops(Hunters, Fauns, Archers) who either can't attack cities well and/or can't pillage. Since I'm no AI producing 20-30 units and willing to lose all of 'em in an attack, I generally just survive while building improvements and cities first. Depends on things like map size and neighbors though. I'm not above early attacking if the enemy's close. I'd even consider casting my World Spell early if the treants could reach and destroy the enemy quick enough. Unfortunately my maps are so large, most treants would die before reaching their target.
 
Thanks Outlandish & JonathanStrange :)

Seems there are two possibilities: a) Stoneskin spell and b) Royal Guards.

For Royal Guards I need some resources and I have just a 4 city Kingdom with very limited resources, so it seems that I have to go for Stone skin.

Royal Guards:
Spoiler :

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Next thing I'm asking is the Great General I know from BTS. I killed dozens of attackers but no General pops up. Seems that there is a certain tech required ...?

No General is coming ... :confused:
Spoiler :

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Regular FFH doesn't use great generals like BTS does - instead, you can get some GG great people points from certain wonders. Edit: Fall Further uses the BTS GG system (the great generals have been massively modified with the latest release though), and orbis also does so. Look at form of the titan (world wonder) in FFH and you will see one place you can get GG points from.

Now, to protecting your mages - as said above, you need either A. stoneskin, or B. a unit with the guardsman promotion. The guardsman promotion requires combat 3 or 4 as a prereq if I remember correctly - the best way to get it is to put it on a hero or to get a unit that starts out with it. The only unit that starts out from it (iirc) is the Royal Guard (available at feudalism and only with the aristocracy civic). However, you SHOULD have gilden by now - put combat on until the guardsman promotion is available, then escort all your mages with him. This will make him useful even in the late game because all guardsman does is make the highest rated defender the one used - so if gilden was guarding some mages, but there was a combat 5 phalinx in the stack, the phalinx would be the defender (needless to say, I doubt the assassin would kill that :D).

Now, on to attacking cities. The Ljosfalters don't have seige equipment, which means that they have to use magic to buff their troops and seige with. There are a few spells that you should keep in mind when doing this:
Maelstrom (Air 2) - you've used it, it damages all enemies in the area.
Fireball (Fire 2) - it causes collateral damage, OR you can use it to bombard city defenses.
Blur (Shadow 1) - makes your units immune to first strikes and defensive strikes.
Shadowwalk (Shadow 2) - you units ignore building defenses - this effectively makes them gunpowder units, you will still have to worry about cultural defenses and terrain defenses, but you won't have to worry about walls palisades, etc.
Specters (death 2) - strength 3 unit with +1 death mana affinity, can be spammed as cannon fodder
Host or Erehnjar (sp? - Law 2 summon) - strength 4 +1 holy summon, again usefull as cannon fodder
Rust (Chaos 1? or entropy 1 - don't remember) - this spell removes metal promotions from units on the stack selected - very useful debuff
Enchanted blade (Enchant 1) - +20% strength to melee units
Fire Arrows (Enchant 2) - +1 fire combat strength to archery units
Dispell (Metamagic 2) - removes all magical buffs on units within 1 tile
Poisoned Blade (Nature 2) - +1 poison strength to all recon units
Summon Tiger (FoL priest spell) - summons a strength 4 tiger (permanent summons, will recieve a +10% strength bonus per level of combat from the summoning priest, plus can recieve xp and promotions of its own - useful as cannon fodder.

Those are most of the spells that you will find useful in attacking cities. Generally when I attack cities I bring lots of mages with fireball spell, as that is the easiest to use and I can spam fireball until their defenses are down and then spam more to cause collateral damage. However, you can work it with air and shadow, with significantly fewer mages, as you need 1 adept to cast blur, 1 mage to cast shadowstep, and then a few mages to cast maelstrom.

Personally, when playing the Ljosfaltar, I like to play with mostly archery units. This means that when I attack, I have to do it with their archery units. Generally this means that I have to either overwhelm with archers, or I need mages. If I have mages, I will have at least 1 of the above mentioned methods - and if I rush mages, get enchantment mana and fire mana or shadow mana (Palace provides air, nature, and I don't remember what else), Enchantment 2 means that my archer attackers are now attack 5 defense 6, and some sort of collateral damage means that I can penetrate the defense. Otherwise I usually wait till I have longbows, and longbows with fire arrows are strength 7 attack, 7 defense, + 1-2 for metal. This, combined with maelstrom or fireball, is generally more than enough to penetrate most defenses for a while. There are definitely times though when it isn't optimal to attack - generally the best time is right after you got a new tech (like bowyers or somesuch), and have upgraded your force to be best usable by them.

Hope this helps.

-Colin
 
Thanks readercolin for your extended explanation. Your listed spells should help to find a strategy. And I am happy to know all these options, now.

But more generally spoken, it seems that attacking cities in FFH2 (at least when using Ljosalfars) is midgame stuff. When I was reloading the game in turn 180 I was not getting a mage and so I could not bulb the pre-tech for Sorcery.

Am I right with this statement:
When playing Ljosalfars following techs should be owned to attack a city:

- Sorcery (mages)
- Bronzeworking (Swordsmen)

Because this is my first game I don't have a feeling for "which tech is possible at which time" (I'm playing normal speed). But it seems not to be possible before round 230 or so..?
 
You might consider changing civilization, as trying to attack with the defensive specialist civ while not being familiar with the mod may lead to frustration! Try out the Khazad civ as they have unique siege units, no advanced magic units (makes the game simpler!) and lean towards a small number of high yield cities.
 
Assuming you are FoL, you can attack early with fawns, unless you are playing at higher difficulties. They are recon, but don't suffer from any city penalties and don't require any buildings to build. All you need to do is spread FoL to your cities and make a small army along with warriors for fodder. You can get them out early enough to catch a neighbor while they are still using warriors. They are expensive though, so soften up the enemies with warriors. Try to get as many Fawns to level 4 as possible so they can later be upgraded to Satyrs. Satyrs will make good midgame attackers.

Don't underestimate using just plain warriors too, especially if you can hookup bronze weapons. They are super cheap. You can pump out 2 warriors for the price of an archer and don't need to build an archery range.

Checkout Horsemen too. High withdrawal units are great for softening up stubborn defenders.
 
Elves are indeed very difficult to conquer with. I find fireballs a must-have. One mage with Maelstrom is nice to ping down the defenders a little bit, but most of your mages should be promoted to Fire II. Fireballs are very weak, but their collateral damage limits are extremely high, meaning that after a few of them all the enemies in the city are severely hurt and easy pickings.

Spectres are a good option too, but using Death mana with the elves seems weird.

If you really want to go a-conquering, I'd recommend playing as the Sheaim (their axeman replacement, the Pyre Zombie, is pretty much unstoppable) or as the Calabim (aside from heroes, Vampires are probably the most devastating unit in the game).
 
I'm back from a long fight ...

When I was running against walls (City attack without mages) in the first stage, I learned that it is better to wait until having mages and the maelstrom spell. I have attacked two of my neighbours and in round 400 I was score leader.

But now I'm in a deadend situation again. I want to go for a tower victory.
I cannot build the - I guess it is the Necromancy-Tower - because I don't have death and shadow mana. I was using a mage and transforming a raw mana node to death mana, but when doing a mouseover it tells me 0 ressources death mana. I know this behaviour from BTS when building uranium mines but the fusion tech is missing...

Whats wrong here? (There is a world wonder providing one source of death mana, this city including the wonder was captured by me)

How can I get death mana to build the missing tower?
(I hope that is the final tip to end my first ffh game ...:thumbsup:)
 
You need to research Necromancy. Also, if you are in the Overcouncil, they may have banned the uses of certain mana types. If that is the case then you will need to switch back to nothing or to the Undercouncil.
 
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