commodified
Calculator
This start is crazy. Will you post your 4000 BC save?
Five-Cow Opening question ...
- Thread starter jeffbot
- Start date
jeffbot
Chieftain
Thanks to all, especially the last couple on startup options.
I played one version out to about 1000 AD -- and it's pretty easy to see that tweaking the beginning some more would produce a better result. This is a good one for me to learn on ...
By 1000 AD ... well, to summarize, I've survived wars I didn't start with both Iroquois and Aztecs. But I've been in almost non-stop combat with the damn pesky Iroquois, who just would NOT give up more than a tech at a time! (Yes, I fell behind on tech ... had to keep TOO many cities well-defended in the north or the Aztecs would have jumped me again. So I kept after the Iroquois. By the time I met everyone else ... they all hated me, and Japan and India were waaaay ahead.
So ... back to the beginning ... will tweak the start, plus, clearly I need to wipe out the Aztecs early, somehow. ;-)
I played one version out to about 1000 AD -- and it's pretty easy to see that tweaking the beginning some more would produce a better result. This is a good one for me to learn on ...
By 1000 AD ... well, to summarize, I've survived wars I didn't start with both Iroquois and Aztecs. But I've been in almost non-stop combat with the damn pesky Iroquois, who just would NOT give up more than a tech at a time! (Yes, I fell behind on tech ... had to keep TOO many cities well-defended in the north or the Aztecs would have jumped me again. So I kept after the Iroquois. By the time I met everyone else ... they all hated me, and Japan and India were waaaay ahead.
So ... back to the beginning ... will tweak the start, plus, clearly I need to wipe out the Aztecs early, somehow. ;-)
jeffbot
Chieftain
commodified said:
See earlier in the thread -- I did post it.
Regarding the AI (military) strength calcs, I'm stuck at work and don't have time to look up a cite (see War Academy), but I'm pretty sure that I recall the formula as a summing of (Attack*3+Defense*2)*HP for each unit (I believe this uses 'current' HP's as opposed to max also). So the AI would consider an archer to be 150% as 'dangerous' as a spearman, if you will (sadly, I don't believe it compensates for movement, so my knight-heavy militaries are no more scary-looking than a bunch of dumb MI 
). It makes sense though (roughly) - I'd be much more concerned with a neighbor with 20 archers than one with 20 spears. Nobody's taking anyone over with defenders.
The point is that a lot of high-level players build hardly any defensive units at all (no time for that!), as they're both weighted less and largely useless in offensive campaigns (outside the minimal requisite units for guard duty). If you find yourself in defensive campaigns too much, the problems could likely begin outside of unit selection.
Just my two cents, but I'd agree with Tomoyo on this one. Spearmen are for suckaz!
Edit: never underestimate how much I'll avoid doing the work I'm actually payed for:
Miltary Advisor article
Overall strength is a sum of the following (I'd forgotten bombard strength (which must be added separately) but the 3:2 A/D ratio remains):
Units Strength (player 1) = Hitpoints * (1.5* AttackPoints + 1 * DefensePoints ) 0.175 * Bombard Points
). It makes sense though (roughly) - I'd be much more concerned with a neighbor with 20 archers than one with 20 spears. Nobody's taking anyone over with defenders.The point is that a lot of high-level players build hardly any defensive units at all (no time for that!), as they're both weighted less and largely useless in offensive campaigns (outside the minimal requisite units for guard duty). If you find yourself in defensive campaigns too much, the problems could likely begin outside of unit selection.
Just my two cents, but I'd agree with Tomoyo on this one. Spearmen are for suckaz!
Edit: never underestimate how much I'll avoid doing the work I'm actually payed for:
Miltary Advisor article
Overall strength is a sum of the following (I'd forgotten bombard strength (which must be added separately) but the 3:2 A/D ratio remains):
Units Strength (player 1) = Hitpoints * (1.5* AttackPoints + 1 * DefensePoints ) 0.175 * Bombard Points
Tomoyo
Fate
Only two settler factories? That's short changing this start! This start is capable of three! That's why you should irrigate all but one!AndrewN said:Brennen is right, you don't need to irrigate all the cows.
For a settler factory you need a granary, + 5 food per turn and 7 or 8 shields per turn.
I am at work so I can't play the game, but a quick play with a spreadsheet give me this:- irrigate 1 cow, mine 1 cow and mine 2 bonus grasslands. At size 4 this will give you + 5 food and 8 shields (food: 2 from city center, 1 from the mined cow and 2 from the irrigated cow). After 2 turns mm the city to put the new worker an unmined grassland for +5 food and +8 shields again. After another 2 turns the settler will pop and the city will be back to size 4. Repeat
You could try the same trick with the second city, but you are 1 bg short so you will need 2 mined grasses to replace it. Also corruption may cause a problem. If you are short of shilelds then use it to create workers in a 2 turn cycle and mine the final cow for the 3rd city to use for creating units.
I don't think you can build the colossus as you are on fresh water (I know you can't on C3C, but this is the original and the rules may be different).
With a settler every 4 turns, along with a guard, and a worker every 2 this should be a good game to play. Don't worry about wonders, they are expensive and don't help you that much. Research alphabet/writing/philo at best speed and trade for the others with the AI's.
TruePurple
Civ wanna B
- Joined
- May 18, 2005
- Messages
- 1,367
I'm with tomoya, I say irrigate most of the cattle squares (maybe mine a couple) and mine all the shield grass of course. The food will cause your population to explode and you will get more shields to produce once you get enough population to work the grass tiles as well. But you will need a bunch of workers to develope those tiles before you start on graineries or settlers.
Maybe 3 or 4 workers followed by a settler followed by grainery. New town could build maybe 2 more workers followed by a settler followed by a grainery. *Shrugs* I wish you had conquest, I don't want to play a plain game Maybe I will anyways though I am kind of into my own game right now.
Maybe 3 or 4 workers followed by a settler followed by grainery. New town could build maybe 2 more workers followed by a settler followed by a grainery. *Shrugs* I wish you had conquest, I don't want to play a plain game
Maybe I will anyways though I am kind of into my own game right now.
AndrewN
Prince
Tomoyo said:
OK. It took a bit of thought, but I think I can see how (in theory) you can get enough food for 3 settler factories by irrigating 4 cows and mining the 5th. Two towns can get +4/+6 food by sharing a cow. However I am too lazy to mm the towns each turn
. mming a normal settler factory every other turn is almost too much work for meThe problem with the start is I don't think there is enough shields for the builds. I can only see 5 cows, 3bg and 7 grasslands before border expansions. This gives 19 (uncorrupted) shields per turn (6 for cows (1 mined), 6 for the bg's and 7 for the grasslands) or 76 over 4 turns. I am not sure if the terrain near Boston is jungle or forrest, but even with forrest there is still not enough shields. If the large lake wasn't there then it would probably work.
Added to this I am not sure it is the best to have 3 settler factories. I don't think there will be enough room to expand with the other civ's nearby, plus a few warriors is always useful to keep the other civs quiet.
On an added point I tried the world seed in C3C. I didn't get the 5 cows start, but I did get 4 grassland wheat on a set of rivers
. Added to this I popped a settler out of the first hut I looked in 
jeffbot
Chieftain
Well ... now I really will start over, since I got to the "Japan is bigger and better in every way and I don't feel like fighting infantry with musketmen and knights" stage. 1400 points, third place in 1500 AD. But I learned a lot ... thanks all for your help.
jeffbot
Chieftain
And ... perhaps to close the thread ...
I got a win out of the game on what amounted to about my fifth real try at it.
To summarize ... and probably all you experts could have guessed all of this ...
Placement of the first two cities for optimal production was critical, but there was no real point in running a settler factory early on (that I could see.) Sandwiched between two opponents on the same land mass -- well, I stopped at five cities and started churning out swordsmen -- 15-20 was enough to almost knock the Aztecs out of the game BEFORE the Iroquois were out of reach. I built another 20 and cut the Iroquois down to manageable size ... but I left them the land mass to the west, which was mostly jungle and contested territory, besides.
When I met everyone else I was behind on tech by three or four, but was No. 2 on land mass and in by far the most defensible position. Five AIs contested the other major land mass. I could NOT catch up on tech by trading or revving up the science (guess I'll have to read more about that) ... even when they all went Communist, which I thought would give me a chance to catch up. Nope.
So I dropped Science down, traded where I could and bought my techs -- taking care to buy from whomever seemed to need the most help, thus preserving the stalemate on the other land mass.
I didn't get a single Great Wonder until SETI ... and then the UN. I chose to take the diplomatic win ... but I was in position, at that point, to cut down the leader militarily or probably to win the Space Race.
I got about 3300 points. I'm sure one can do a lot better. My next area of study will be how to keep up/get ahead in tech. But I'm sure what y'all have told me will help in a "builder" game as well ... in this one, I was at war almost constantly until about 800 AD and only had contact with two AIs until about that point, as well. Maybe there was no way to keep up without trading partners. In an aborted attempt, earlier, I'd tried to get galleys across the ocean without Navigation but never lucked out, they all sank. ;-)
I got a win out of the game on what amounted to about my fifth real try at it.
To summarize ... and probably all you experts could have guessed all of this ...
Placement of the first two cities for optimal production was critical, but there was no real point in running a settler factory early on (that I could see.) Sandwiched between two opponents on the same land mass -- well, I stopped at five cities and started churning out swordsmen -- 15-20 was enough to almost knock the Aztecs out of the game BEFORE the Iroquois were out of reach. I built another 20 and cut the Iroquois down to manageable size ... but I left them the land mass to the west, which was mostly jungle and contested territory, besides.
When I met everyone else I was behind on tech by three or four, but was No. 2 on land mass and in by far the most defensible position. Five AIs contested the other major land mass. I could NOT catch up on tech by trading or revving up the science (guess I'll have to read more about that) ... even when they all went Communist, which I thought would give me a chance to catch up. Nope.
So I dropped Science down, traded where I could and bought my techs -- taking care to buy from whomever seemed to need the most help, thus preserving the stalemate on the other land mass.
I didn't get a single Great Wonder until SETI ... and then the UN. I chose to take the diplomatic win ... but I was in position, at that point, to cut down the leader militarily or probably to win the Space Race.
I got about 3300 points. I'm sure one can do a lot better. My next area of study will be how to keep up/get ahead in tech. But I'm sure what y'all have told me will help in a "builder" game as well ... in this one, I was at war almost constantly until about 800 AD and only had contact with two AIs until about that point, as well. Maybe there was no way to keep up without trading partners. In an aborted attempt, earlier, I'd tried to get galleys across the ocean without Navigation but never lucked out, they all sank. ;-)
AndrewN
Prince
lfyuan said:How about stealing tech? It seems much cheaper than to research by urself ... And, u can get a free declaration of war from AI if u fail, -- another good point!
Stealing tech is defiantely the way to go. Its cheaper than buying them from the AI and much cheaper than researching them yourself, plus the AI dosen't get your cash to finance its own research thus slowing the tech pace down.
If you go this route then sell off your libraries/universities, they only cost money, set science to zero and steal to your heats content
. In your game you have an advantage that the big AI's are on another contenent and the AI is bad at preforming a seaborne invasion.The best place for hints is to look at the succession game forum to see how the 'experts' play the game. They will give you both early and late game hints, although you may need to look at some of the older games for the startup as the reports nowadays tend to be a bit light on details.
brennan
Argumentative Brit
jeffbot said:
I would say that the factory should grab you 5-6 cities quicker than a different build queue. Going for a couple of settlers instead of a granary for example will get you your next city faster, but then the factory will be pumping settlers out and overtake the 'geometrical' progression - which is the method the AI uses when it expands. If you get Writing and establish embassies with the AI while they are in expansion mode you will see that it is taking their capitals twice as long to produce the settlers, or more.
A second factory is really something to think about only if you get a settler/city from a goody hut, otherwise it just takes too long in my experience, you have to build another granary having waited ages to get the first, at this stage all the land should be used up.
A third? waste of time, get military instead.
If you are getting behind on tech but have a bigger land area then you are probably not managing your cities effectively. make sure to maximise your population, then concentrate on building the most effective improvements first. For example remember that building a marketplace will improve happiness as much as a colosseum so long as you have 4 lux resources, in addition to improving tax revenue. When you get Sanitation build hospitals everywhere and maximise your food for a while, your population and economy will explode, at about the same time, build railroads everywhere and don't shy away from building factories as early as you can, it is worth it despite the pollution.
This part of the game - the early Industrial Age - is where a human player can really catch up. If you go for Sanitation - Steam Power - Industrialization, in that order and take full advantage, then it is possible to grow far faster than the AI does. And remember that even if you are a little behind you can race the AI to the Wonders (especially the TOE) since they are too busy building them to make factories first! Getting TOE and then using the free techs to get Hoover Dam makes your production a killer.
Brennan makes some very good points, but I'd also recommend considering alternate early Industrial Age tech paths as well. There are some incredibly powerful techs available early in the IA, and any given game could have implications as to which order may be more valuable. As an example of a different path, here's what would be my most typical ordering (disclaimer: I favor tight city builds and as such don't value hospitals as much):
Firstly, I'd strongly consider going for Steam Engine right away (I think that's always been my first chosen IA tech). Doing so would allow you to build rails many turns earlier (two expensive techs' worth), leading to increased growth and production in turn and even more importantly, IMO, making your military vastly more effective (with little fear of invasion once a skeletal rail network is in place, you'll also have the ability to transfer troops along any number of fronts instantly). Once you've connected your core and your frontlines, military force can be brought to bear in an instant, anywhere (including into seized enemy territory). In the hands of a human player, a railed empire is much more powerful than one using roads.
If Steam Engine is acquired before Medicine or Sanitation (and you're not already on the threshold of a military victory), then I'd consider grabbing Industrialization also before going Medicine-Sanitation. You'd be able to start your factories much sooner (or switch pre-builds over to factories even), and at this stage of the game, your production will win you wars. In addition, 160-shield hospitals won't seem quite as painful to wait for (and if you're using a tight build and/or are about to win, may even become unnecessary).
Just my two cents on early the IA tech choices. Of course, my standard route is by no means optimal for all situations either. If you're going Communist, you may want to start with Nationalism. If military victory is at hand, you may skip Industrialization and go straight for Replaceable Parts, or even shut off research after Steam Engine or Military Tradition (or even Chivalry
). I just wanted to point out that at that stage of the game, you'll have to weigh the pros and cons of your tech choices given their merits in any single game's set of circumstances.
Best of luck on the continued development of your game, jeffbot!
Firstly, I'd strongly consider going for Steam Engine right away (I think that's always been my first chosen IA tech). Doing so would allow you to build rails many turns earlier (two expensive techs' worth), leading to increased growth and production in turn and even more importantly, IMO, making your military vastly more effective (with little fear of invasion once a skeletal rail network is in place, you'll also have the ability to transfer troops along any number of fronts instantly). Once you've connected your core and your frontlines, military force can be brought to bear in an instant, anywhere (including into seized enemy territory). In the hands of a human player, a railed empire is much more powerful than one using roads.
If Steam Engine is acquired before Medicine or Sanitation (and you're not already on the threshold of a military victory), then I'd consider grabbing Industrialization also before going Medicine-Sanitation. You'd be able to start your factories much sooner (or switch pre-builds over to factories even), and at this stage of the game, your production will win you wars. In addition, 160-shield hospitals won't seem quite as painful to wait for (and if you're using a tight build and/or are about to win, may even become unnecessary).
Just my two cents on early the IA tech choices. Of course, my standard route is by no means optimal for all situations either. If you're going Communist, you may want to start with Nationalism. If military victory is at hand, you may skip Industrialization and go straight for Replaceable Parts, or even shut off research after Steam Engine or Military Tradition (or even Chivalry
). I just wanted to point out that at that stage of the game, you'll have to weigh the pros and cons of your tech choices given their merits in any single game's set of circumstances.Best of luck on the continued development of your game, jeffbot!
commodified
Calculator
@Jeffbot -- I tried your start out. I'm a pretty careless player (you can probably see Detroit and St. Louis rioting below 
), but this start is just too good to mess up.
Here's what I did, roughly:
1. Settled aggressively, including south of the lake. I claimed all visible horses and iron. The only other horse in our corner of the world, as you know, is way to the SE. There was no way the Iro were going to hook that up and be able to build Mounted Warriors for ages, considering how far gone it was (with forest and jungle in between).
2. When there was no space left I changed the cows from irrigation to mines, hooked up Iron and started pumping out Swords. I had really good infrastructure from the industrious American workers.
3. I quickly took over/autorazed all of the Aztecs lands, leaving them a tundra capital and then suing for peace.
4. Then I sent my dudes down south to rumble with the Iroquois. Like I said before, they had no Iron or horses hooked up, so all I had to face were archers. I quickly took their 4 core cities then sued for peace, including Code of Laws and two towns (one's on a desert isle, oh well ).
5. The situation now: the Iroquois met the French first and of course the French traded them all contacts for nothing and the Iro proceeded to get tons of tech for nothing from everybody else
. I'm not sweating, though, because I'm getting Republic in 5 turns. Once I have Knights I'll terrorize the Iro some more and get a few more techs. I might also consider an invasion of Kyoto before I get Education (where the GL resides), but I don't think it's necessary considering how much land I've got. I'm going to hook up the spices in the western jungle to a harbor ASAP so I can turn the lux slider down...
Just some food for thought.
), but this start is just too good to mess up.Here's what I did, roughly:
1. Settled aggressively, including south of the lake. I claimed all visible horses and iron. The only other horse in our corner of the world, as you know, is way to the SE. There was no way the Iro were going to hook that up and be able to build Mounted Warriors for ages, considering how far gone it was (with forest and jungle in between).
2. When there was no space left I changed the cows from irrigation to mines, hooked up Iron and started pumping out Swords. I had really good infrastructure from the industrious American workers.
3. I quickly took over/autorazed all of the Aztecs lands, leaving them a tundra capital and then suing for peace.
4. Then I sent my dudes down south to rumble with the Iroquois. Like I said before, they had no Iron or horses hooked up, so all I had to face were archers. I quickly took their 4 core cities then sued for peace, including Code of Laws and two towns (one's on a desert isle, oh well
).5. The situation now: the Iroquois met the French first and of course the French traded them all contacts for nothing and the Iro proceeded to get tons of tech for nothing from everybody else
. I'm not sweating, though, because I'm getting Republic in 5 turns. Once I have Knights I'll terrorize the Iro some more and get a few more techs. I might also consider an invasion of Kyoto before I get Education (where the GL resides), but I don't think it's necessary considering how much land I've got. I'm going to hook up the spices in the western jungle to a harbor ASAP so I can turn the lux slider down...Just some food for thought.
jeffbot
Chieftain
commodified said:@Jeffbot -- I tried your start out. I'm a pretty careless player (you can probably see Detroit and St. Louis rioting below
<... snip ... >
Just some food for thought.
You may be careless ... but we played somewhat similar strategies and you got much better results. The difference has to be 1) You managed to pump out more settlers than I did, earlier and 2) You must have managed your production better.
I just didn't cover enough ground that early ... I had no territory to the SW. I was turning out swords after I had only ... I don't remember, 6 to 8 cities or so ...
Thanks, I'll have to go back to that save again. It is kind of a fun start position.
commodified
Calculator
No problem. Seattle and Miami were definitely key. Also the tight city-spacing.
