Five flavors of GP farm

[svv]

My purpose here is to list they types of GP farms one can build by combining different national wonders with National Epic. I list what I believe to the five most likely candidates, in the order that I like them, from worst to first.

1. The Military Production GP Farm

Second National Wonder: Heroic Epic

Advantages:

Allows you to concentrate your most powerful city on building military units and GPs at the same time.
Heroic Epic comes early, allowing you to bring your best city completely up to speed quickly.
Good for early conquest and domination efforts.
Allows you to put West Point together with Iron Works for a separate military city, or to put one of them together with Globe Theater for a happiness-penalty-free whipping/drafting city.

Disadvantages:

Requires you to spend hammers on military units, rather than concentrating on things to help your GP farming (such has happiness or health improvements, or other wonders).
Prevents you from putting Heroic Epic together with West Point (or Ironworks) in a separate super-military city.
Terrain desirable for military production may produce little food, and thus not be conducive to GP farming.

2. The Science GP Farm

Second National Wonder: Oxford University

Advantages:

Often a good choice for a capital, with terrain conducive to commerce improvements, where early wonders have been built.
Bureaucracy civic adds both commerce and hammers to your capital, increasing science as well as building potential for other wonders and health and happiness improvements.
May allow you to combine Oxford University with Great Library, though possibly only for a short period of time before Scientific Method kills the Great Library.

Disadvantages:

Working commerce improvements will limit food production and population, decreasing the availability of specialists, thus decreasing GP production.
Cities suitable for cottages may have low hammer potential, interfering with the building of wonders or health and happiness improvements.
Building science improvements may interfere with building of wonders and health and happiness improvements.

3. The Pure GP Farm

Second National Wonder: Globe Theater

Advantages:

Allows you to increase population without limit, and without having to spend hammers building happiness improvements.
Hammers saved not having to build happiness improvements can be used to build other wonders, adding GP points.

Disadvantages:

Unlike the others listed here, does not provide a significant side-benefit to the GP farming.
Population growth may still be limited by health issues.

4. The Money/Religion GP Farm

Second National Wonder: Wall Street

Advantages:

Combine merchant and priest specialists with shrines and other wonders for huge money and huge GP points.
Good choice for spiritual civs with religions founded in their capital, where other wonders might already exist.
Shrines do not require hammers to build, but contribute to GP points, allowing the city to focus on other wonders and improvements.
Great Merchants built here can settle in the same city, further increasing money and adding free food.

Disadvantages:

Not as advantageous for non-spiritual civs with religions founded in cities other than the capital, as it deprives the GP farm of wonders probably built in other cities.
Dealing with unhappiness from expanding population will be a near constant problem.
Prevents you from being able to combine Wall Street with Globe Theater for an unlimited-population religion/money city.

5. The Engineer GP Farm

Second National Wonder: Iron Works

Advantages:

When brought up to speed, allows employment of up to six engineer specialists (which cannot otherwise be obtained, such as through caste system).
Farms Great Engineers, which are the most useful GPs, particularly in the late game.
Hammer bonuses from the Iron Works and engineer specialists will assist in building health and happiness improvements, as well as other wonders.
Great Engineers born here can be used in the same city to build other wonders, or in low-hammer cities to produce needed improvements (such as Oxford in a separate science city).

Disadvantages:

Placing Iron Works in a city set up for GP farming prevents you from putting Iron Works in city with a lot of terrain-based hammers, thus losing production which could be used for military units, etc.
Engineer-producing wonders and ability to employ engineer specialists are limited, so you will either be limiting your GP production, or “polluting” your GP production with a lot of non-engineer points.
Iron Works comes late in the game and is difficult to build (although a Great Engineer helps a lot).
Iron Works and Factory cause extra unhealthiness, thus limiting growth and/or requiring building of health-improving structures.

A couple of closing notes: Of course, you can have other GP farms that don’t involve National Epic. I’ll usually have 2 or 3 cities dominated by farms and specialists, such as a religion/money city (with Wall Street and Globe Theater, when I don’t combine one of those with National Epic in the main GP farm).

Also, these are not the only possible combinations with the National Epic. You could have the Culture GP farm (Hermitage), the Spy GP farm (Scotland Yard) or the Medic GP farm (Red Cross). Those others just didn’t make much sense to me.

 

[svv]

This space reserved.

 

[VoiceOfUnreason]

It would never, ever, occur to me to pair the epics; nor to consider the items in that list to be advantages.

You also seem to be carrying a hidden implication that the GP farm that you are describing is in your capital. If you think that's what's going on, fine - but make it an explicit statement that people can disagree with.

It feels to me, from these descriptions, as though you aren't really talking about GP Farms, but instead are describing possible locations for the National Epic when your land or strategy doesn't support a traditional My God That's a Lot of Food Farm.

I suggest taking a couple more swings at this - I think you've got some useful thoughts to express in here, but you need to get clarified in your own mind and refined in presentation.

Sigh, I really need to find time to work on the Vocum I've been promising myself.

 

[InvisibleStalke]

I think there are four styles of GP farm:

- Specialist / Philosophic farm at capital.

Capital is usually the highest food and production site you can get initially. If you are running a Farm economy you are probably going to want to make your capital your main GP farm and build Great Library (if possible) plus National Epic here. And its likely to get Oxford later to run maximum science specialists.

- Cottage / Financial style GP Farm

If you are getting your science from cottages, then your capital probably will get Oxford and the GP farm will be built in another city (often a conquered enemy capital), in which case it will get National Epic and probably Global Theatre.

- Industrial / Production GP farm

This is a little different as it uses wonders rather than specialists for GP points. Wonders don't give as much but don't need to be fed. With an industrial civ, having a capital that continuously builds wonders and when there are no wonders to be built runs specialists can generate a lot of GPP. Here national epic could be paired with iron works successfully, although global theatre would also be a good option.

- Shrine Farm

A shrine in the farm means that cash will be high and a lot of priests can be generated and settled in the same city to give production an even more cash. Wall Street makes sense here.

I can't see any benefit in the Heroic Epic / National Epic pairing. Building buildings or wonders can help a GP farm, but a GP farm doesn't benefit at all by focussing on building units. Heroic Epic may benefit by being in a high food city, but that isn't going to be a GP farm. Your heroic epic city should be running no specialists at all and outputting maximum food+hammers.

 

[DaveMcW]

Iron Works + National Epic
This is silly. Once you have the Iron Works you don't need Great Engineers anymore! And why waste hammers by hiring engineers when you can work mines or workshops? If you do build the National Epic here, it's because you already have so many wonders that it outproduces your best specialist city.

Heroic Epic + National Epic
Bad.

Globe Theater + National Epic
No, unless I want half my GPs to be artists.

Wall Street + National Epic
Oxford University + National Epic
Yes.
The synergy of one specialized city and one specialized city is amazing. One city gets cottages and the commerce slider, the other city gets farms and the national epic.

 

[fed1943]

I agree Dave, but one point:

In a mixed economy (minimum 2/3 cities with lot of cottages) the biggest
GP farm with National Epic and Globe Theater can be very good. And only the
first (perhaps one more) more likely to be Artist, as let us say 6/7/8 scientists or
merchants will supplant said two artists sources.

Best regards,

 

[DaveMcW]

I guess if you have an amazing GP farm and no resources in the rest of your empire you could use Globe Theater. But I do fine with military police in the early game and happiness resources/buildings in the late game.

 

[svv]

Some general responses:

1. I agree that putting the National Epic with the Heroic Epic is likely to be a bad choice. That's why I listed it as the "worst" option. It's conceivable, though, that somebody may wish to play that way under certain circumstances; such as if they're running a very small empire trying to get a quick military win.

2. No, I am not assuming that the GP farm would be in the capital. In fact, in several places I talk about the difference in employing the strategy if it is in the capital or not in the capital. However, it often makes sense to put the GP farm in the capital, because it's the oldest city and most likely to have early wonders already built in it. Accordingly, if a certain type of GP farm has more or less synergy with the capital, then that certainly should be listed as an advantage or a disadvantage.

3. I don't draw a distinction between a "GP farm" and a "Place with the National Epic." If you've got the National Epic someplace, then that place is at least ONE of your GP farms. GPs are farmed from both wonders and specialists, and I think that a city with a lot of wonders and National Epic, but little or no specialists, counts as a "GP farm."

You may disagree with that terminology, but that's part of the reason for this article. People talk about a "GP farm," but they may be talking about very different things. That's why I thought it was helpful to classify them here.

4. I can see disagreeing with pairing National Epic with Iron Works, but I don't think it can be called "silly." Great engineers are quite useful even after steel is discovered and the Iron Works built: for building Pentagon, Statue of Liberty, Three Gorges, Oxford (often best built in a city with very low hammers), Wall Street (same), and even the space elevator. Of course, if you're playing a short game on a small map, you won't need those things. Those aren't the kind of games I like playing, so that's why I like this combo. I can certainly see room for disagreement, though.

 

[VoiceOfUnreason]

3. I don't draw a distinction between a "GP farm" and a "Place with the National Epic." If you've got the National Epic someplace, then that place is at least ONE of your GP farms. GPs are farmed from both wonders and specialists, and I think that a city with a lot of wonders and National Epic, but little or no specialists, counts as a "GP farm."

You may disagree with that terminology, but that's part of the reason for this article. People talk about a "GP farm," but they may be talking about very different things. That's why I thought it was helpful to classify them here.

Then you should probably open by making your terminology clear first, rather than assuming that everybody agrees with your terminology and discussing cases.

Even so, I wouldn't bother discussing the Doubled Epics - not unless you've got demonstrations of its effectiveness.

 

[InvisibleStalke]

The point of pairing Iron works and National Epic is not to farm Great Engineers. Its rather a natural evolution of a strategy an industrious civ can use:

- Start with a strong production capital
- Build early wonders there
- Gain GPP from wonders. Run specialists instead of mines when not building wonders.
- Gain production advantages from Bureaucracy at appropriate times
- Build Great library and National Epic in this city once you get literature. No other city is going to be generating GPs as fast at this point if you have 3-4 wonders including great library so why build national epic anywhere else?
- Later on you build IronWorks here because this is your strongest production city and will rush out ALL of the late wonders. By the time you get IronWorks, the GPP is a smaller part of the equation because you won't get too many more great people anyway. But you still want the late wonders and because national epic is here you still get to keep generating GPP from your earlier wonders.

I wouldn't try this with a non industrial civ. But with Qin I managed to get all of the wonders except Oracle and Sistine Chapel and get my earliest space race win on Monarch. And got more Great People than I would get in most games where I didn't run Philosophical.

 

[svv]

Sure, but if your not industrious, the engineer GP farm lets you build wonders a diffferent way - with great engineers! In my current game (on Noble, but nevertheless...) I've built all the wonders with Elizabeth - with access to Stone but not Marble, in a city with very few terrain hammers. Some I've built slowly and by whipping/chopping, but mostly I build with great engineers.

If a wonder requires marble, or takes a long time to build, you use a GE on it. Meanwhile you've working farms and cottages, growing the city and churning out science at the same time. You put a forge in here, hire an engineer as your only specialist, and make sure you build all the engineer wonders (pyramids, hanging gardens, hagia sophia, ironworks, pentagon, three gorges) in this city. Other wonders, you can either build here (adds GP points but pollutes the likelihood of them being engineers) or build elsewhere. Of course, I'd build Great Library in the National Epic city despite the potential dillution.

Enginners here should be enough to build all the wonders you need to rush here, and wonders you want elsewhere. By the time you get to Ironworks and have four engineer specialists, the chances for a great engineer should be higher than for all the other great person types combined.

 

[InvisibleStalke]

Sure, but if your not industrious, the engineer GP farm lets you build wonders a diffferent way - with great engineers! In my current game (on Noble, but nevertheless...) I've built all the wonders with Elizabeth - with access to Stone but not Marble, in a city with very few terrain hammers. Some I've built slowly and by whipping/chopping, but mostly I build with great engineers.

If a wonder requires marble, or takes a long time to build, you use a GE on it. Meanwhile you've working farms and cottages, growing the city and churning out science at the same time. You put a forge in here, hire an engineer as your only specialist, and make sure you build all the engineer wonders (pyramids, hanging gardens, hagia sophia, ironworks, pentagon, three gorges) in this city. Other wonders, you can either build here (adds GP points but pollutes the likelihood of them being engineers) or build elsewhere. Of course, I'd build Great Library in the National Epic city despite the potential dillution.

Enginners here should be enough to build all the wonders you need to rush here, and wonders you want elsewhere. By the time you get to Ironworks and have four engineer specialists, the chances for a great engineer should be higher than for all the other great person types combined.

Thats viable I guess. I tend to think that the city that I build Ironworks in won't need to burn engineers to make wonders because it will have so much production itself already. I was building most wonders in around 6-10 turns on standard speed (industrious + stone and marble + org religion + bureaucracy) and late game wonders usually exceed what one engineer can rush.

But with Elizabeth, I think your strategy makes some sense. Normally you want lots of specialists in lots of cities with philosophical - mainly scientists to rush through to liberalism and the renaissance military techs.

But Elizabeth is a strange mix - since you really want cottages in most of your cities to maximize the financial trait. Getting a lot of your GP points from wonders in a single city - and getting these wonders quickly by prioritizing engineers seems a reasonable strategy. With the great library you will still have enough scientists to build a few academies and you probably won't need to lightbulb techs with Elizabeth.

 

[Mutineer]

From my point of view there only 2 types of GP farm.

Specialists based GP farm - demand as mach food/health you can get. Not machh point to have this one in capital.

Wanders based GP farm - demand as mach shields as you can get. Again need some farms in order to support all this mines and grow. Does work good with capital, as it let you get more shields.

Iron work come well to late to have mach influence, but still could be good to put in Wander based GP farm, but not for running engeneers, but for max shields production for later wanders.

Second national wanders useally do not work good in specialists GP farm. Main purpouse of GP farm is to be GP farm. So, you mostly work food ties and run as many specialists as you can. Building second wander will interrapt your GP production and value of GP's fall with time. Yearly you get = better. You useally barelly get enogth shields to build more health buildings to run more specialists. You do not really have any to spear for second NW.

So, from my point of view the only sutable second wander is Iron works in wanders based GP farm.

 

[VoiceOfUnreason]

Specialists based GP farm - demand as mach food/health you can get. Not machh point to have this one in capital.

I agree, but for pointing out that the position of the initial settler is often quite suitable for this kind of city. The answer being to move the palace, of course.

Wanders based GP farm - demand as mach shields as you can get. Again need some farms in order to support all this mines and grow. Does work good with capital, as it let you get more shields.

I gotta ask - is this spelling of Wonder deliberate? Every time I read it, it's nails on the chalkboard. Given how consistently you spell the word that way, it isn't a typo. Just curious. Yes, I need to get over it.

Iron work come well to late to have mach influence, but still could be good to put in Wander based GP farm, but not for running engeneers, but for max shields production for later wanders.

Assuming you've got sufficient health/happy, it doesn't cost much to run the engineers, though. Engineers have a 1:1 conversion from food to hammers, so the only production you lose is that while you are growing.

Second national wanders useally do not work good in specialists GP farm. Main purpouse of GP farm is to be GP farm. So, you mostly work food ties and run as many specialists as you can. Building second wander will interrapt your GP production and value of GP's fall with time. Yearly you get = better. You useally barelly get enogth shields to build more health buildings to run more specialists. You do not really have any to spear for second NW.

For constructing wonders, I agree in the main. Priest farms manage hammers fairly well, and a science farm will gain production as the game progresses (settled scientists). In addition, you have three viable options for rushing wonders, not including chopping.

One of the points I intend to address in the Vocum is the number of hammers you need for a specialist farm.

 

[DaviddesJ]

In a mixed economy (minimum 2/3 cities with lot of cottages) the biggest GP farm with National Epic and Globe Theater can be very good. And only the first (perhaps one more) more likely to be Artist, as let us say 6/7/8 scientists or merchants will supplant said two artists sources.

If you could pair Globe Theater with another wonder that gave unlimited health, I might agree with you. But, the thing is, usually your health limit and happiness limit are similar. So you just don't gain that much by having unlimited happiness. The Globe Theater is mostly useful for repeated pop-rushing or drafting---which you aren't going to do in your GPF.

 

[svv]

True, but I don't think hitting the health limit is as bad as hitting the happiness limit. If you go over the health limit, you reduce your food surplus, and therefore the growth rate, somewhat. If you go over the happiness limit, you turn a citizen into a rioter, thus losing whatever he would have been producing - probably that same amout of food, plus something else.

Also, there is a trait (expansive) and a civic (environmentalism) which can help with health, but none corresponding to help with happiness.

 

[VoiceOfUnreason]

Also, there is a trait (expansive) and a civic (environmentalism) which can help with health, but none corresponding to help with happiness.

Charismatic? Hereditary Rule? (or Representation, as the GP Farm is going to be one of your largest cities)

 

[svv]

Sorry, I don't know about charismatic because I don't have warlords. That is true about representation, though (what you're likely to be in if you're trying to develop as many specialists as possible). Still, I usually find that the happiness limit is hitting about the same time as the health limit, as David said, even assuming representation is running.

 

[lilnev]

I've had some success pairing the Globe with the NE. Basically, they're the two wonders that can really leverage a stupid-surplus-of-food city. You either run tons of specialists in Caste, or you whip/draft, as needed. And it's easy to switch back and forth because you regrow so fast (whipping->specialist switch), or you've already got a lot of banked population to spend (specialist->whip/draft switch).

If you've got two stupid-food cities then it may make sense to split them, one as a dedicated GP farm and one as a dedicated Globedraft. They don't really compliment each other directly. But they're each so strongly dependent on having the biggest food surplus possible, that they sometimes end up in the same city anyway -- the city with the most food.

peace,
lilnev

p.s. But probably most often, I don't pair my NE with any other National Wonder at all. It's "just" a GP farm.

 

[sylvanllewelyn]

I don't use my capital for a GP farm. I use someone else's capital, preferably a ridiculous flood-plains one. Farming flood plains can provide for specialists even with unhealthiness, netting +1 food each. So hapiness is your only real limitation, which is removed by globe theatre.

As for great artists...

- there's caste system, to overwhelm the artist GPP with scientists
- Once you get universal sufferage, buy markets, libraries, observatories, theatres... don't worry about getting what GP. Scientists for academies, engineers for buildings, artists for ending resistance (very useful in wars) or getting the radio tech, merchants for money, prophets for golden age(s).
- early on, don't worry about that combination. Great library and library with pacifism should be enough to get you liberalism pretty quickly, if you're so inclined.

For me, I almost always build the maximize GPP style with NE and Globe theatre, BUT, occasionally, if I have a shrine pulling in 40+ gold a turn, which is not too difficult with buddhism holy city, then I would build wall street and spam GM's.