Fix the Trash Game

One of the problems I have with this format is that different players ('experts' and noobs) will have different grand strategies/victory conditions in mind; what may be a good set of turns for a cultural strategy may not be a good set of turns for a conquest strategy. Picking the 'best' turnset each time may well lead to strategic drift.
 
I will try to set the links and threads up on Thursday. Let's keep trying to hammer out the rules though. Pigswill has a point about which is best game to pick. I think that is why you have to describe your game when you submit, and what you are shooting for. One way to ease this pain is to make the rounds longer, but that has some drawbacks too.


Quote:
My wife has made it very clear that work and computers are gone for a week. I think I better listen to her before she converts to slavery and the whip (I know she has bronze working in just one more turn).


now we know who's the most powerfull around

I appoligize for any sexism and bad taste in this reply
Spoiler :


When I was single it was a constant state of barbarism. Since then the civics have changed. Even though my wife is more like Catherine that Isabella, she can change civics without any turns of anarchy. Her pyramids also mean that she can invoke any government civic. Usually it is representation, but police states can happen although rare. In theory there is free speach, but I find that vassalage is more prevalent. The labor systems seems to float from serfdom to the caste system:blush: , usually not slavery! State property is sometimes run, but free markets keeps everyone happy. Thankfully the religion stays set at paganism. That is way more that you wanted to know!:D
 
Paul666 said:
cabert said:
My wife has made it very clear that work and computers are gone for a week. I think I better listen to her before she converts to slavery and the whip (I know she has bronze working in just one more turn).


now we know who's the most powerfull around

I appoligize for any sexism and bad taste in this reply
Spoiler :


When I was single it was a constant state of barbarism. Since then the civics have changed. Even though my wife is more like Catherine that Isabella, she can change civics without any turns of anarchy. Her pyramids also mean that she can invoke any government civic. Usually it is representation, but police states can happen although rare. In theory there is free speach, but I find that vassalage is more prevalent. The labor systems seems to float from serfdom to the caste system:blush: , usually not slavery! State property is sometimes run, but free markets keeps everyone happy. Thankfully the religion stays set at paganism. That is way more that you wanted to know!:D

I apoligize for any sexism and bad taste in this reply:
Spoiler :
:lol: I'm glad I am still single... :rotfl: I always wondered what love and marriage were about, but now I see: Marriage is the unchangable variation of the fenomenon called 'love'. 'love', It appears, can be partly defined as Forced Labor. It seems Vassalage, State Property, and Pacifism have something to do with it too... :scared: :hammer2: :hammer2: :D ;)
 
^ :clap:

Short-term thinking

OK ... I tend to agree with pigswill that short-term objectives and long-term objectives are going to mess us up a bit.

For instance, we're next to Saladin. He's Hindu. Our city of New York is also Hindu, although 80% of our cities are Confucian; our founded religion.

Three players are up to bat ...

Player One: Convert to Hinduism ... start a campaign of building Hindu Missionaries out of New York to convert our own cities, while also building Confucian Missionaries to try to sway Saladin to Confucianism. In the meantime, trade technologies with Saladin with the view to a bee-line to Education so we can build Universities and start piecing together a tech' lead. We will deal with Saladin when we have Cav's.

Player Two: Envisage a war with Saladin by working towards Engineering and picking up Pikemen to counter his Camel Archers. In the meantime, stick with Confucianism and ramp up cities with Forges, Aqueducts, shoot for The Colossus, and when hitting Construction start pumping out Catapults.

Player Three: Load up our remaining Axes and Swords, and rush at a few of Saladin's border cities with the hope that in ten turns we'll take at least two cities and we can sue for peace. One Arabian city is on the fringe of an Ivory resource, and that would be great to grab before the Camel Archers arrive.

No strategy's bad ... but Player Three would probably get the points.

As such, 10 turn rounds is just miles too few and does not allow the player to execute for themselves any longer term strategy. We need at least 40 turns per round. :eek:

Victory

I also said it before, that the victory objective must be defined. I would push for; no Cultural, no Spaceship, no Diplomatic with a reliance of votes from other tribes. Most 'newbies' I suspect are either (a.) too passive, or (b.) too 'gung-ho' with poorly co-ordinated attacks. To dominate the world I think would be the best approach.

The *Up to Prince level players* play all

I'm taken by Welnic's suggestion that *Monarch+ level players* only step in each alternate round, while the *Prince- level players* involve themselves in every round. If a *Prince- level player* pulls off a Phoenix 'rise from the ashes'-like act - that would be brilliant!

Real life

I think that we need a group of say six people, and if four are on deck at any one time, then so be it. I don't think that the world will collapse if a few of us can't play for a week. I think that with a larger number of turns per round, there will be more to digest and work on.

Start that Succession Game!

Paul666 and cabert ... please do what you have to do once you two are satisfied with the arrangements.

As before, my preference would be for a tribe without a dominant or early UU, such as India, Germany, America, France, or Spain - but so long as it's not Rome - I'll be happy. I've slipped France in, as I'm still unconvinced about the 'Musketeer rush'.

Dave McW ... are you there? Are you 'in'?
 
Some good points about the rules:
let's agree on something (for a change :lol:) :

New proposed set of rules:
- vanilla, no reload, no world builder, no perpetual anarchy (no warlords XP yet in my hands)
- No groups, everyone on the roster can (not must) play each round of turns, if a newbie gets the best game, i'll offer my congrats and vote for it, if a wanabe expert posts the worst game we may consider it's a fake, and dismiss it (well, the writeup may explain how it came to that)
- The next round starts after a vote selects the worst game/best game alternatively, the OP post the save and the definition of next round before each round is started (= something like 3rd round is starting with this save, ending in 1000 AD, the worst game will be selected for the next round, please post your save and writeup before Saturday the 17th of august, 8 am east coast time)
- Rounds are 40 turns (i propose that after 1000 AD, we go down to 20 turns or some expert will kill the game in his round!)
- Each round of turns is to be played within a week, selection is 2 days at least (so everyone gets time to open every save, look it up and vote!)
- lost games may not be selected, so if one proposed game is not yet lost, the game is not over (however i think lost games should be posted, as a writeup)
- first reported win (see below conditions) ends the game
- Level is prince (ragging barbs? ok for me, but don't count on me as expert for those :eek: ! never used the option!)
- Domination/ conquest are our target victory conditions (a good plan towards cultural/space race/diplomacy/time (?!) is considered a bad move here, although those victory conditions are available to the AI)

Did i forget something?
Paul666, you're up ;)

PS : we badly need a real expert, but i think the fix the trash game concept may get us one or 2 in the SG forum
 
I disbanded my settler because it couldn't attack anything (how useless!) and now I have a scout. Where do I go from here?
 
Cam_H Paul666 and cabert ... please do what you have to do once you two are satisfied with the arrangements. [/QUOTE said:
sounds like i highjacked the thread:sad:
sorry about that

As before, my preference would be for a tribe without a dominant or early UU, such as India, Germany, America, France, or Spain - but so long as it's not Rome - I'll be happy. I've slipped France in, as I'm still unconvinced about the 'Musketeer rush'.

I think playing a spiritual leader, without dominant UU, and NOT going for cultural is :smoke:
Not saying we should not do it, but it's somehow making things difficult.
Well, not having a dominant UU is already making things difficult in some way.
I vote for Bismarck because i never played him (didn't even know his traits :lol:, i checked it's industrious and expansive).

Dave McW ... are you there? Are you 'in'?

I will PM him, with a link here. It would be great to have him in the game.
 
cabert said:
sounds like i highjacked the thread:sad:
sorry about that

Not at all! It seems as though you and Paul have put some good thoughts into how this could be shaped, and I'd like you to lead us to 4,000 B.C. :)

cabert said:
I think playing a spiritual leader, without dominant UU, and NOT going for cultural is :smoke:
Not saying we should not do it, but it's somehow making things difficult.

I've had some of my most aggressive games playing with Mansa Musa and Montezuma! Fast switching into war civics and cheap temples to combat war weariness! Yippee!

I guess you're referring to India: They start with Mining and Fast Workers, so your already on your way to chopping an army of Axes ... and no Anarchy when you implement Slavery!

I want to avoid going for a :culture: win because it's far too easy to get to eight to twelve cities, hit Chemistry, and just turtle up for the rest of the game. It won't teach the *Up to Prince level players* how to be 'the' superpower.

Bismark is a good choice. A :hammers: powerhouse.
 
The traditional super UUs are praetorians, redcoats and cossacks; others have their proponents but these are the ones to avoid.
 
It doesn't have to be a race to the bottom; you still keep score by the best games submitted, but everybody has to start the next round playing the last-place save. The difference is, whoever submits the last-place save is eliminated from the competition.
 
Sounds like prince is a good level; raging barbs makes it bit more challenging at the start. If you're looking at 'noobs' and 'experts' I guess that players who feel comfortable at prince (i.e. expect to win) might be the 'experts' (maybe I suggested that to help me feel 'expert')

In terms of selecting best/worst then maybe every entrant gets to score the other games (say 1-10) based on personal judgement. Highest score one round, lowest score next round.
 
pigswill said:
Sounds like prince is a good level; raging barbs makes it bit more challenging at the start. If you're looking at 'noobs' and 'experts' I guess that players who feel comfortable at prince (i.e. expect to win) might be the 'experts' (maybe I suggested that to help me feel 'expert')

In terms of selecting best/worst then maybe every entrant gets to score the other games (say 1-10) based on personal judgement. Highest score one round, lowest score next round.

well, i was still thinking (my bad) about "voting for the other group"
Didn't even think about the fact that i may have to vote for (or against) my own game:eek:
I think your solution is pretty good.

How do everyone think about ragging barbs?
I'm somewhat afraid of it, mostly because i don't know what exactly happens. I'd rather just stick with warmongring prince game. But if you guys think it's a change, i'll just try my best.
Obviously, ragging barbs gives you more free xp, so there is room for optimisation ,from experts and room for ill-managing and lost cities from newbies.
I don't know if i want it or not:cry:
 
Tennyson said:
It doesn't have to be a race to the bottom; you still keep score by the best games submitted, but everybody has to start the next round playing the last-place save. The difference is, whoever submits the last-place save is eliminated from the competition.

interesting but different.
It's more competetive, and less about learning.
We may try it another time.

About "elimination", i will repeat that a lost game may not be selected, but that doesn't mean the "loser" (no offense meant) cannot play the next round!

The other rule is that a win ends the game. That's for everyone, meaning that if someone posts a winning game for round 2, there will be no round 3.
Maybe we should only accept winning game from "ups"? It's somewhat lame, but if we don't, i fear the game ends with a win from an "expert" during one of the "downs":crazyeye:
 
I think raging barbs would be a mistake because noobs will probably be attempting slingshots or Rex in order to get good advice on how to do these. These starts could be seriously messed up by raging barbs
 
mice said:
I think raging barbs would be a mistake because noobs will probably be attempting slingshots or Rex in order to get good advice on how to do these. These starts could be seriously messed up by raging barbs

all the more reason to put them on then :lol:

we don't want defenseless oracle cities;)
 
I'm happy to go with the flow, but my preferences at this stage are;

Bismark as the Leader

A good suggestion. Industrious might encourage 'Wonder addiction', but aside from that I think he's 'average' enough to go with. Stone or Marble in the fat-X could make things 'interesting'.

Standard World

I would prefer to avoid a map that urges a certain playstyle or puts too much emphasis on particular technological pursuits. I'd avoid a Pangaea.

'Normal' Barbarians

Again I'd prefer to go with 'normal' barbarian activity ... certainly not 'off', probably not 'raging' - the exercise is about learning, not hair loss.

Turns

Happy to go with 40 turns per round to 1000 AD and 20 turns per round after that. I'm sorry if this week-long per round thing is due to me - if it ends up being impractical then we can speed it up later on. I'm assuming 'Normal' speed.

Victory

I'm being repetitive, but I think that Cultural, Space, and Diplomatic* (*if needing votes from other tribes) should be out for the human player(s). Spaceship should be obtainable for the A.I. though.
 
cam_h,
i think we agree (as usual :lol:) on everything, and don't worry, the week long thing is because 40 turns may be long to play, and should not be hurried.
(I hurried the GotM9 and ended up retiring with 2700 points :()

i think we have enough for starting the game now.
Paul? you're up ;)
 
Can I just address the roster for the moment, as really it looks as though we have three Monarch-Emperor players, and four Prince players ... am I right in thinking this?

I am excluding people who've just added a comment or an observation, but not wanting to be exclusionary:

Cabert : Monarch-Emperor
Cam : Monarch-Emperor
Pigswill : Monarch
William III : Prince
Paul666 : Prince ... maybe?
Mice : Prince
Petrucci : Prince

I'm not sure if there's the yawning gap of expertise that I guess I envisaged. :confused:
 
I like all of these suggestions it seems both fair and just :-) I would however, vote on continents. It is very difficult sometimes to deal with what is going on over on that other island for instance, sorta like what Aelf is dealing with in his emperor game! Island maps are just tedious at times and I agree that pangea should be right out. Any leader works fine by me, including Bizzy.

I could go both ways with playing raging barbs but in my heart of hearts I was hoping we would all agree to them! It would be challenging exciting, and give a highly probable chance of getting that "bunk" first round played which you would have to save! Well, perhaps in "School the n00bz Pt. II !! lol The 40/20 play turns sound good and no worries at all from me about week long deadline.

I can play and beat prince, but I do consider myself much less experienced than you experts! Maybe not a newbie, but i sometimes gloss over choices which i should be paying more attention too. I'm more than certain i will make choices you guys will think is :smoke:!

Can't wait to get started!
 
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