Flat Desert Tile Buff

[Starrynite120]

This was proposed in the Pantheon thread, but I thought it deserved its own thread.

Flat desert tiles without resources (even with resources) are pretty useless. A buff was suggested through a building like well or water mill to give +1 food to flat, non floodplains desert (this would of course come along with a nerf to the desert pantheon, which it seems most people want anyway).

How do people feel about this change? I personally would like it. It doesn't make flat desert very useful, but at least its not useless. It also requires a building, making it worse than tundra, but at least workable. I personally would be ok with it coming on a later building than well/water mill, or perhaps even on just water mill (which would make sense because you need fresh water to spread to the desert tiles).

So two questions:
1) Do you think we should have a building give +1 food to FLAT non-floodplain desert?
2) If so, which building?

 

[Takagi Hiro]

Yes, I think this is a good idea. Here's why.

Desert sucks.

... not good enough? Okay, here we go. Spawning in the desert is great in only two circumstances. A lot of flood plains, and Spirit of the Desert, of course. If you miss it, well, great, but it's probably time to roll again. There are always all sorts of resources like stone, iron, and incense in the desert, but you'll never ever want to work them unless you get your pantheon. And if you happen to get it, now it's bordering on OP if it isn't already, making the desert hit or miss... it's either OP or crap. The desert could use a food buff to at least make them SLIGHTLY workable, and yes, the Spirit of the Desert could in this case lose the food benefit it provides. This both buffs the desert to a single food tile for all civs while making the resources still more favorable to work if you grabbed the pantheon. Because let's face it: 2f/2g/2fa in the early game is really good. It honestly needs a food nerf, but then this proposition would counter balance it.

If we're talking buildings, if would have to be BOTH the well and water mill (anything that acts as a water source, logically). You wouldn't want to settle off the river just to buff the desert. That's silly.

 

[Starrynite120]

I didn't suggest just well, but just water mill. As in you can only buff desert tiles if you settled next to a river. Other than that, I agree with your points.

The pantheon makes desert really good, but only one person gets it. A building would rather make desert acceptable for everyone rather than great for one person.

Also, I find the desert sucks argument to be enough

 

[peterw1987]

It cant be helped.there is always some place in this world that no civ would want to settle. How exactly would you like to buff desert? It does not make sense logically how flat desert can have yield(food?? Production??culture??gold??) Faith maybe, but still weird. It can act as something like mountain.
No one man land that nobody want to liveby. It plays role to strategically positioning your cities.

flood plain, oasis(extra yield compared to plain ,grassland) is some balancing mechanic that maybe developer thinking when deciding to give desert 0 yield.

 

[Funak]

Isn't the whole point of desert to be inhospitable? Jam a great-tile-improvement on it and the tile becomes decent enough, assuming the city in question needs more tiles.

 

[Takagi Hiro]

Why would you ever put a great person on such a crappy tile?

 

[Owlbebach]

Isn't the whole point of desert to be inhospitable? Jam a great-tile-improvement on it and the tile becomes decent enough, assuming the city in question needs more tiles.

Well the point of the whole discussion was to balance spirit of desert, cause it is too good on hill/flood plains, but if you remove +2food - it becomes useless on flat desert

 

[Gazebo]

Isn't the whole point of desert to be inhospitable? Jam a great-tile-improvement on it and the tile becomes decent enough, assuming the city in question needs more tiles.

Agreed. Deserts and ice should be useless.

 

[Starrynite120]

Agreed. Deserts and ice should be useless.

I can't agree with that, mainly because getting a bunch of desert is just boring. Shouldn't it be a goal of the mod to get rid of boring features?

Also, desert isn't actually useless in the real world. It has very minimal usability, but technology is able to make it more useful. Hence my suggestion that perhaps a mid game building adds 1 food to flat desert. It makes it not a garbage tile, but takes a while to become below average instead of just staying garbage. Having tiles without any yield the entire game is really boring. (I won't argue about snow or ice because its confined to the middle of the map. Desert is more of a problem cause it can come up anywhere.)

As for the pantheon, if a building gives food to flat desert, making it +1 food or none the tiles can still be usable.

 

[Takagi Hiro]

I have to agree with Starrynite120 completely. It doesn't have to come early, but show the desert some love.

 

[tu_79]

How about farms on desert? I found that when there's an oasis I rarely can form farm clusters. That hurts.
If there's irrigation, a desert can produce as much food as any other terrain. So it can be something like oasis giving extra food to adjacent farms and farms on flat desert giving one extra food.
This is not possible on ice because water freezes.

 

[peterw1987]

I think desert should stay 0 yield to make sense.

If you need balancing, i think the only solution is to make basic resource(wheat,incense,marble,stone) cannot spawn on flat desert tile.
Marble stone exclusively on desert hill only, and wheat incense on desert flood plain only.


I dont mind about iron and oil on flat desert.

 

[Starrynite120]

I think desert should stay 0 yield to make sense.

If you need balancing, i think the only solution is to make basic resource(wheat,incense,marble,stone) cannot spawn on flat desert tile.
Marble stone exclusively on desert hill only, and wheat incense on desert flood plain only.


I dont mind about iron and oil on flat desert.

Why? Because my point was that 0 yields doesn't make sense, and I gave a reason for it. And the balance you're describing is in the opposite direction (nerf) of what is being proposed in this thread (buff). If anything the desert needs a buff, definitely not a nerf by removing resources (with the exception of the pantheon being too strong).

 

[Starrynite120]

How about farms on desert? I found that when there's an oasis I rarely can form farm clusters. That hurts.
If there's irrigation, a desert can produce as much food as any other terrain. So it can be something like oasis giving extra food to adjacent farms and farms on flat desert giving one extra food.
This is not possible on ice because water freezes.

This could be better. I personally wouldn't find it enough, but its better.

I think it would be cool if desert starts really terrible but gets better over time, not to the point of being good, but to the point of being a bit below average. It would represent civilization coming to the point of overcoming the harsh climates of nature to a degree, which is realistic.

 

[Owlbebach]

I think that zero yelds desert is OK. But the whole discussion started with balancing Spirit Of Desert. I think the uniquness of Spirit Of Desert should be that it should make uninhabitable desert habitable. With that said, it should not be OP when it is taken by lucky civ born on lots of floodplains and hills with resources. My solution is that SOD provides +2 food only on tiles without access to fresh water.

 

[CrazyG]

I don't see the reason for this. Frankly I don't find deserts weak, at all. The only luxuries they can roll are mines, marble, and incense (which is awesome when it pops up on floodplains) all of which are very strong. I'm guaranteed a river system where all the tiles start at 3 food, that matches or beats what some luxuries do in plains or grassland. You get access to floodplain wheat and Oases, two of the best starting tiles in the game. Maybe I do have to work an iron mine or oil well that earns 2 food less than it would on grassland, but I'm earning at least 2 extra food from having floodplains, and that comes into play much later.

it should make uninhabitable desert habitable. With that said, it should not be OP when it is taken by lucky civ born on lots of floodplains and hills with resources. My solution is that SOD provides +2 food only on tiles without access to fresh water.

I completely agree with your bolded statement, but keep in mind you can have a mine on a hill without freshwater, and flat desert which is fresh water via Oasis. "+2 faith and +2 gold on desert tiles with improved resources. Additional +2 food if the tile isn't hills or floodplain" is the wording I suggested in another thread, I think it achieves the goal of making inhabitable desert habitable.

 

[Starrynite120]

I don't see the reason for this. Frankly I don't find deserts weak, at all. The only luxuries they can roll are mines, marble, and incense (which is awesome when it pops up on floodplains) all of which are very strong. I'm guaranteed a river system where all the tiles start at 3 food, that matches or beats what some luxuries do in plains or grassland. You get access to floodplain wheat and Oases, two of the best starting tiles in the game. Maybe I do have to work an iron mine or oil well that earns 2 food less than it would on grassland, but I'm earning at least 2 extra food from having floodplains, and that comes into play much later.


I completely agree with your bolded statement, but keep in mind you can have a mine on a hill without freshwater, and flat desert which is fresh water via Oasis. "+2 faith and +2 gold on desert tiles with improved resources. Additional +2 food if the tile isn't hills or floodplain" is the wording I suggested in another thread, I think it achieves the goal of making inhabitable desert habitable.

You're right, early game desert and settling cities can be very beneficial. However, I was suggesting a mid-late game building to give food, when cities are bigger and the benefits from the better tiles start to matter less. I think early game is ok cause of flood plains and desert hills being normal, and the opportunity for some good resources. However, mid-late game deserts when you're already working the good tiles and you have a bunch of flat desert are boring, undesirable, and just straight up suck. I think a mid-late game building (maybe industrial era?) to give 1 food to flat non-floodplain desert could be a good addition to this game to mitigate those awful tiles. It wouldn't make them good, but at least workable. And as I said before, its not like this isn't happening in the real world.

 

[peterw1987]

Why? Because my point was that 0 yields doesn't make sense, and I gave a reason for it. And the balance you're describing is in the opposite direction (nerf) of what is being proposed in this thread (buff). If anything the desert needs a buff, definitely not a nerf by removing resources (with the exception of the pantheon being too strong).

Actually, i am not proposing a nerf. Afaik, the map generator has a set number of resource in certain area. So if possible, what i mean is that so the resource only placed on flood plain or hill, so the set number of resource do not go to waste(on flat desert tile).

Sorry if i cannot explain it clearly, because english is not my first language.

 

[CrazyG]

You're right, early game desert and settling cities can be very beneficial. However, I was suggesting a mid-late game building to give food, when cities are bigger and the benefits from the better tiles start to matter less. I think early game is ok cause of flood plains and desert hills being normal, and the opportunity for some good resources. However, mid-late game deserts are boring, undesirable, and just straight up suck. I think a mid-late game building (maybe industrial era?) to give 1 food to flat non-floodplain desert could be a good addition to this game.

First of all if you are correct and deserts suck mid-game I don't see how this suggestion would change that. Watermill is most certainly an early game building, a few food on tiles you still don't really want to work won't have much impact.
Secondly, I don't think a certain terrain having great early game but weaker mid game is bad, sounds like good design to me.
And finally, I don't think deserts suck mid game. A big cause of mid game strength is getting religion, early growth, and early production production. Deserts have all of that, even playing as India I don't find having a few unworkable tiles matters at all until really late, and by then does it really matter I'll just work low priority specialists, or even Laborers who have surprisingly good yields in Atomic and Information era. If I'm already working every good tile its not like I need to grow.

If Deserts have a flaw, its probably if your river is small when Hydro and Wind plants come up. Horses and (I think) coal don't appear on Desert which can also hurt (but lots of oil and iron)

 

[Starrynite120]

First of all if you are correct and deserts suck mid-game I don't see how this suggestion would change that. Watermill is most certainly an early game building, a few food on tiles you still don't really want to work won't have much impact.
Secondly, I don't think a certain terrain having great early game but weaker mid game is bad, sounds like good design to me.
And finally, I don't think deserts suck mid game. A big cause of mid game strength is getting religion, early growth, and early production production. Deserts have all of that, even playing as India I don't find having a few unworkable tiles matters at all until really late, and by then does it really matter I'll just work low priority specialists, or even Laborers who have surprisingly good yields in Atomic and Information era. If I'm already working every good tile its not like I need to grow.

If Deserts have a flaw, its probably if your river is small when Hydro and Wind plants come up. Horses and (I think) coal don't appear on Desert which can also hurt (but lots of oil and iron)

I'd changed my suggestion to a later non-specified building away from the water mill, something around the industrial era.
I guess a big thrust of my argument is lots of flat desert is just boring, and it takes away from the fun of the game. Its not fun to have uselss tiles.
Also, I'm regarding desert not just as weaker but garbage. Feel free to argue with that. Cause I would not disgaree that terrain that starts strong but is weaker later is good design. But I don't believe that is what's happening.