Flavors of Civilization

[iron0037]

I dropped a message over in his thread but I wouldn't hold your breath. He has a lot of other enhancements he's working on for that project.

 

[CiaranB123]

It sounds good apart from the original modifications you done...

 

[iron0037]

None taken, though I can't address any of your concerns unless you cite specific examples .

 

[againsttheflow]

It sounds good apart from the original modifications you done... which some are really bad (no offense)

That's some pretty poor critiquing if you ask me. Constructive criticism on the other hand is generally taken quite well around here.

 

[CiaranB123]

The keshik and ancient cavalry are exactly the same. The civs addede and removed arent good because portugal founded brazil so it shouldnt be taken away, the byzantines were very important because they are in the ancient and middle ages and are really important but canada are relatively new. japan are more industrious because they build a lot of things, china should be militaristic and industrious because they have a huge military and most things i see are manufactured in china, there are more but i dont want to list them.
Anyway other than that the added units i think are excellent

 

[iron0037]

Thanks for the feedback CiaranB123. Some thoughts on your points...

1. The Keshik and the Ancient Cavalry are not the same. Opening Ancient Cavalry up to all units allowed me to move some of the many (I would argue excessive) unique Knight units. The Keshik, along with the War Elephant, is one of those units that replaces the Ancient Cavalry, and it gets +1 attack. This makes the Keshik one of the most dangerous units in the game, creating a Mongol Dark Age scourge very much like history .
2. The changes to civilizations were made with an eye to playing this on an Earth map. All the civilizations removed were in crowded real estate, and those that were added were placed in open spaces. I'm working on an Earth map to go with the next major revision of the mod.
3. Specifically with the Byzantines, I know that a number of players don't like them. The Byzantine Empire can be considered an extension of the Roman Empire or also as the Middle Age Greek civilization. Both of those civs are already there, so why have another one?
4. People will argue about proper civilization traits to the end of time; I don't think this community will ever reach a consensus. From my perspective, "industrious" means you are good at building civil infrastructure due to the worker rate bonus. "Commercial" on the other hand means that you're a trading power. Romans with their aqueducts and roads felt industrious while Japan with its huge trade surplus felt more commercial, and hence I swapped them. "Agricultural" to me has the game benefit of increasing your population, so civilizations with a lot of people got that. In general, I find that England, America, Rome, Greece, and China are all hard assign traits because so much of what we think of as civilization comes from them.

 

[iron0037]

In other news, I have a new patch out! Version 1.02 addresses a bug where the Ancient Cavalry Upgrade Unit flag was not checked. Now you can upgrade your Ancient Cavalry to Knights like all the other flavored cavalry. Enjoy!

 

[CiaranB123]

Thanks for the feedback CiaranB123. Some thoughts on your points...

1. The Keshik and the Ancient Cavalry are not the same. Opening Ancient Cavalry up to all units allowed me to move some of the many (I would argue excessive) unique Knight units. The Keshik, along with the War Elephant, is one of those units that replaces the Ancient Cavalry, and it gets +1 attack. This makes the Keshik one of the most dangerous units in the game, creating a Mongol Dark Age scourge very much like history .
2. The changes to civilizations were made with an eye to playing this on an Earth map. All the civilizations removed were in crowded real estate, and those that were added were placed in open spaces. I'm working on an Earth map to go with the next major revision of the mod.
3. Specifically with the Byzantines, I know that a number of players don't like them. The Byzantine Empire can be considered an extension of the Roman Empire or also as the Middle Age Greek civilization. Both of those civs are already there, so why have another one?
4. People will argue about proper civilization traits to the end of time; I don't think this community will ever reach a consensus. From my perspective, "industrious" means you are good at building civil infrastructure due to the worker rate bonus. "Commercial" on the other hand means that you're a trading power. Romans with their aqueducts and roads felt industrious while Japan with its huge trade surplus felt more commercial, and hence I swapped them. "Agricultural" to me has the game benefit of increasing your population, so civilizations with a lot of people got that. In general, I find that England, America, Rome, Greece, and China are all hard assign traits because so much of what we think of as civilization comes from them.

Ok then... I'll try it out and see it more 'in depth'. But, just saying, I think that industrious means that the civ has a huge industry, which means that they have a lot of factories and stuff. Commercial means they trade a lot with other civs. Agriculture means that they are a very farming civ with hundreds of farms across there land.

 

[againsttheflow]

The thing is almost all civs, and especially ancient ones were rather intrinsically 'agricultural' and their greatness had much to do with their having a good farming system. The problem with industrious and commercial is that in order to trade a lot one must have a good industry... So, as has been already said the system is simply rather hard to pin down, I think the present system makes good sense. One thing, you might consider iron0037, if you wished to add another concept is giving some civs 3 traits so as to have some so-called "great-civs". Possibilities could include the ones you mentioned in the last line above.

 

[CiaranB123]

Yes ok I'll download it now... and see if it's good, but, one question, is there more UU and flavour units for industrial and modern times?

EDIT: Ah yes I seen now, there isn't but I think you should put a patch with more industrial/modern units because then it would be good throughout the game not just at the start.

 

[iron0037]

@Chaseclift
Steph is overworked as is with his Editor. He said it is "unlikely" that Vanilla support will be added. I'll keep the idea of porting the mod on the back burner...maybe one day...

@atf
So what would entail making a civilization "great?" Are you thinking that certain civs should be given more than the standard issue of 2 traits? It's an interesting idea, but wouldn't that imbalance the game a little?

@CiaranB123
againsttheflow has also requested I add more industrial/modern flavor units. I'm definitely working on that. The trouble is that I want to add both historically accurate and decent looking units with a consistent feel. Gary is doing a good job building units that fit the criteria, but I find that modern flavor units are generally scant to pick from. If you guys have specific units in mind, please let me know. I'm particularly overwhelmed with all of TopGun's air units...anyone willing to help me parse through them would be appreciated .

There are a few more UUs in the modern era. Brazil gets the Pracinha, Canada the Peacekeeper, and Australia the Heavy Cruiser. I'm not fully satisfied with my Aussie UU and will certainly take advice on a better one.

 

[againsttheflow]

@atf
So what would entail making a civilization "great?" Are you thinking that certain civs should be given more than the standard issue of 2 traits? It's an interesting idea, but wouldn't that imbalance the game a little?

In answer to the unbalance, yes the civs you gave a 'bonus trait' to would have a definite advantage = they would almost always be a more impressive civ in game. It was more throwing out ideas than requesting but there are players myself included that enjoy playing as the underdog and there are always those that love to have the most advantages. It's just an idea that might add more flavor to this mod. I'm [nearly] positive I have one or two mods that have this implemented.

 

[CiaranB123]

You could add some industrial sandris units...

 

[Blue Monkey]

@atf
So what would entail making a civilization "great?" Are you thinking that certain civs should be given more than the standard issue of 2 traits? It's an interesting idea, but wouldn't that imbalance the game a little?

In answer to the unbalance, yes the civs you gave a 'bonus trait' to would have a definite advantage = they would almost always be a more impressive civ in game.
...
I'm [nearly] positive I have one or two mods that have this implemented.

Take a look at TAM. Troy has three traits. But each of the other civs has a wonder unique to them (they can build it from the start) which gives them some other advantage, like spy missions off the bat, or extra sea movement, or bonuses to commerce, etc. It takes some work, but there are ways to balance giving a civ extra traits.

 

[wolf_brother]

When deciding which civs get which characteristics one must keep in mind what the bonuses actually do.

Spoiler :

Civilizations:
Bonuses:
Militaristic: Determines if the civilization is Militaristic. Milistaristic civs get a discount on militaristic improvements, and also their units are twice as likely to be promoted.
Industrious: Determines if the civilization is Industrious. Industrious civs get a discount on industrious improvements, and also increases the shield production of the center square in level 2 and level 3 cities by 1. Industrial workers work 33% faster than other civilizations' workers.
Expansionist: Determines if the civilization is Expansionist. Expansionist civs get a discount on expansionist improvements, and also causes goody huts to give no negative effects.
Scientific: Determines if the civilization is Scientific. Scientific civs get a discount on scientific improvements, and also receive a free tech whenever the civ enters a new era. Also increases the chance of a scientific great leader spawning when a civ is the first to research a new tech to 5%. (non-scientific civs get a 3% chance)
Religious: Determines if the civilization is Religious. Religious civs get a discount on religious improvements, and Anarchy only lasts 1 turn when in revolution.
Commercial: Determines if the civilization is Commercial. Commercial civs get a discount on commercial improvements, and also increases the commerce production of the center square in level 2 and level 3 cities by 1. Also reduces corruption.
Agricultural: Determines if the civilization is Agricultural. Agricultural civs get a discount on agricultural improvements, and also increases the food production of the center square in all cities, and irrigated desert squares to produce 1 more food.
Seafaring: Determines if the civilization is Seafaring. Seafaring civs get a discount on seafaring improvements, and also increases the chance of survival of ships in hazardous waters. Also increases ship movement points by 1.

 

[iron0037]

Woohoo, 100 downloads. I am working on an update in my spare time. Sandris' German and Greek lines have been incorporated (and look fantastic). I've added a new unit class and am collecting graphics for modern flavor. Now if I could only find the motivation to finish that Earth map of mine...

As far as traits go, I would encourage players to edit the game if the current settings aren't to their full satisfaction. It's a quick fix to change them; my builder play style makes it such that I won't pick a civ without making one of their traits religious .

 

[CiaranB123]

Don't you have a conquests version? Maybe you could get someone to make one for you...

 

[iron0037]

The only version available is Conquests. Some people have asked for a Vanilla version, which looks unlikely in the near-future. If someone is willing to help with that though......

 

[CiaranB123]

When I downloaded it, it was only vanilla version... I'll try again...

Anyway, I would love to help put industrial + modern units in, for a new patch, I've always wanted to make a mod along with someone, I might make some units soon and hopefully I can add some in...

Or... I could add the new Sandris greek pack into it...

 

[CivSURFER]

Hi,
Your mod looks interesting but when I try to download from atomic gamer I get the following "permissions denied,too many open connections". I finally got High- speed but I'm having a heck of a time downloading from these sites.Can anybody tell me what the problem is?
Thanks