Forts! +(other battle features)

[Ranbir]

I'm wondering if it has been implemented the zone of control modification on forts so my enemies won't just walk past it without concern.

So far I've only built a fort between peaks (so I can't check it atm!)

Plus, I'd think it be cool if when I win a battle my unit doesn't automatically have to move into the space it attacked. (Civ 2 style!)

 

[Gamestation]

Time to revive the original fortress discussion.

I remember that a user named Maniac created a mod to FFH2 that had forts with zone of control but unfortunately it is not yet updated for 0.22.

 

[Ranbir]

Neato! Thanks.

 

[Bringa]

Personally I thought that the ZoC in RoM were way too powerful. It became impossible to move through enemy territory at all.

 

[Ranbir]

Then I have a reason to build them, yay! I'd like some work to do rather than have a straight line to the city in taking it.

 

[subanark]

What I would like to see is a form of patrol that allows a unit to be in multiple places at once.

What you would do is order the unit to patrol a set of squares that the unit can walk over in a single turn. The unit protects all squares and any hostile unit that moves into any of those squares attacks that unit. However the unit does not receive defensive bonuses from fortifying.

E.g.
A warrior can patrol over 2 squares without a road, 3 with a basic road and 4 with improved roads.

A horseman can only patrol 2 squares in a forest, 3 squares on plains, 5 with basic roads and 7 with improved roads.

 

[Bad Player]

In the medieval ages how did forts work and how effectively did they work? They didn't completely stop enemies but they were important enough to spend a lot of resources on. Corfe castle for example in the UK held out against the parliamentarians for a few years IIRC and the parliamentarian side knew they had to take it.

Maybe if we could work out just what forts did back in their day, it could be mimicked here.

 

[woodelf]

I have faith that Maniac can make them work in a good manner.

 

[CuteKills]

The current mech for a castle/fortress is more than a bit wrong anyway.

The Welsh Border castles (for example) were there to hold down the the Welsh, not protect towns from outside.

Here's one: http://www.castlewales.com/beaumar.html It's worth noting the walls are actually a bit /shorter/ than originally planned.


.. which suggests a good mech for Castles (at least) would be preventing cities revolting even when they want to, assuming the garrison is adequate.

It's also worth noting that you can lose the town /without/ losing the keep - not that Civ has a way to model this...

A fort is also a /lot/ harder to take than a town - which is generally why fortresses fell to betrayal and/or surrenders rather than actually being stormed.

 

[woodelf]

Time for espionage and bribery to make an appearance ala SMAC. Buy the fort unless met by another spy unit in combat.

 

[Maniac]

Personally I thought that the ZoC in RoM were way too powerful. It became impossible to move through enemy territory at all.

Is that experience from before or after I changed forts to remove a precise amount of movement (1 MP normally, a half one with Commando) instead of the full movement?

 

[Ranbir]

In the medieval ages how did forts work and how effectively did they work? They didn't completely stop enemies but they were important enough to spend a lot of resources on. Corfe castle for example in the UK held out against the parliamentarians for a few years IIRC and the parliamentarian side knew they had to take it.

Maybe if we could work out just what forts did back in their day, it could be mimicked here.

Europe's medieval age wasn't the only place to ever use forts.

Kyber Pass had forts built to stop invading forces from getting into India. (funnily enough, only managed it properly in the 18th Century!)

Besides this is fantasy and I'm still hoping for a chance to build a 'great wall' that spans across my landscape. Ala the "Nothern Wall" from Guild Wars. >>

Be nice to see siege equipment used against might fortifications that aren't set in the cities.

 

[onedreamer]

Because of how warfare and occupation worked in the Medieval Age, yes you could walk past a fort/castle but that would serve you nothing. To occupy a territory in the M.A. you should have conquered the castle that controlled it. So it makes sense that a fort completely stops enemy moves IMO, as long as you can't build 2 forts at 3 or less tiles from each other (sort of like cities).

 

[TheBoatman]

Make forts and their upgrades cost money like medieval castles then. 100 gold for basic one, another 50g for each level proposed (+50g for double bed and shower ) These prices can go up with inflation. Fortress spaming wouldn't come so early with this.

 

[MagisterCultuum]

I would personally still like to see forts gain cultural borders like cities, but based solely on the strength of their current garrisons. The garrison promotion should also help defend forts.

 

[CuteKills]

A reasonable model for a fortress would be a modified town:

- Fixed at size 1
- No culture, but won't flip from culture either.
- Very limited build possibilities, but with a more extensive set of walls.
- Cost in upkeep
- As suggested elsewhere, you could give a promotion to defenders of such a structure giving a lot of free move/withdrawal chance.


As the AI knows how to defend towns, at least the AI will know what to do with them. Getting it to build them in the right places may be more of a struggle...

While we're on the subject of defence, I have to say I don't /like/ culture defending a city at all. I can't think of many cases where great works of art have stopped invaders - quite the reverse, usually! (Increase plunder for high culture?)

It would make more sense to me to have cities defended by walls, towers etc only, but to have to build more sets of these as the city expands (because the effectiveness of defences is actually reduced as a city gets bigger, meaning you'd have to build more (and more expensive) sets of walls as a city grew).

 

[[NWO]_Valis]

I can't think of many cases where great works of art have stopped invaders

No, that is resembled by your [as an attacker] envy to take that city for your self.

I have to say I don't /like/ culture defending a city at all.

It resembles that the more of your culture there is in the city the population fells more compelled to help in defending the city, to resist opposing forces. That is why you can 'bombard' cultural defences, it is not actually a real bombardment but lowering the morale of the citizens [that is why Balsepriath Cowapults do it better]. What I cant understand is how bombardment lowers the defensive bonus from walls when the actual building is still intact. If the def bonus from walls and castle [and other buildings] was not affected by bombardment it would make sense to build them. It would also make some room for military sabotage actions in the future.

 

[Ranbir]

I would personally still like to see forts gain cultural borders like cities, but based solely on the strength of their current garrisons. The garrison promotion should also help defend forts.

I've always liked the idea of forts extending your borders.

But for this to happen I've felt that your borders (politically defined) should not be expanding due to culture. --> Basically, culture should not define political boundaries.

 

[onedreamer]

While we're on the subject of defence, I have to say I don't /like/ culture defending a city at all. I can't think of many cases where great works of art have stopped invaders - quite the reverse, usually! (Increase plunder for high culture?)

Uhm, actually I understood it in a completely different way. The strongest the culture (and therefor stronger national identity) of a nation, the stronger will be its people's will to resist and overcome other nations. Culture isn't just a collection of paintings, but also education, military traditions, poems (of war) etc...

 

[Ranbir]

Won't that will of resistance...shouldn't that be placed into when the city is actually occupied by the enemy and not during.

Iraq for example. The people have very strong cultural roots. They've been resisting the allied forces after the initial battles of occupation, not during.