Franco will move.

[Zardnaar]

He did not, for all his faults, and there are. Considering where Yugoslavia was coming from, and the resources it had available, Tito's arrangements achieved surprising peace and prosperity. And the latent problems did not have to result in the civil war that broke it apart violently.

Hint: the more prosperous western countries were bigger, heavily supported by the major winner of WW2 and by far the wealthiest country in the world, and to the end still could scrape together more intellectual capital and imperial resources to rebuild with, of which Yugoslavia (and many other extremely damaged central european countries after WW2) had little. It was not a level playing field. The UK was scarcely damaged by the war on its territory, and had an empire to exploit for some time still. The french shamelessly exploited (and exploit) Africa for resources. The dutch suffered a severe setback after WW2, but had the good luck of natural gas at a critical time, and a central position to benefit from trade. Likewise in part with the belgians.
The italians and the germans are the only remarkable cases of rapid prosperity from ruin. It can be argued that they could still build on the know-how that remained, the tradition of industry and science was strong in Germany and northern Italy. But the US also helped a lot. Checking the other allies in Germany and then subsidizing it, lending also to Italy in order to block the red threat there that would grow if the country did not prosper under the western alliance.

Tito's Yugoslavia benefited also from its "neutral" position, it could more easily trade with east and west, even sometimes get support from both. And that showed. But there were limits, it never managed to become as prosperous as the larger western countries. Prosperous enough that they'd like to see it brown apart though, rather than deal with it as a near-peer inside an enlarging EU. Or a competitor locking that enlargement. The history of cross-border political meddling in the 20th century is interesting, you should study it! Everyone was doing it.

Whatever the government, Spain's chances of rapidly becoming prosperous were likewise limited, the Yugoslavia comparison is a good one. IMO a socialist "neutral" Spain would probably be more open that francoist Spain was, ans benefit from that. It had gone through a civil war and it was a country severely lacking in resources and know-how to catch up rapidly. A republican social-democratic Spain certainly would, and be drawn into the ECC before it was. Back when the EEC was actually advantageous to a country in its position.

Spain was in a fairly bad way after the war

They were to poor and weak to join WW2 on the Axis side.

 

[innonimatu]

Franco was more right wing authoritarian and the regime died with him.

Spain would be worse off IMHO had the Commies win. Franco didn't drive Spain into the ground.

Even now Russia is still poor and the poorest parts of Europe are ex Soviet Republics, was Moldova might be Ukraine now. Throw in Bulgaria, Romania etc.

Franco did a civil war! He didn't initially lead it, but decided to carry it instead of ending the coup when the leader died. You say it yourself "Spain was too poor after the war". Franco was the leader of the rebellion that made Spain that poor! And you dare claim that his somehow was the better side for governing Spain? Just because that government included communists and in your mind all communists are some incarnation of the devil, or what?

Want to talk about russian poverty, or ukranian poverty? Fine. Explain what happened when the USSR fell and communism was replaced with capitalism. Did they became wealthier or poorer? What happened to, say, life expectancy?

They were to poor and weak to join WW2 on the Axis side.

I don't think that Hitler cared about such details. He tried to get Franco on his side, closing the Mediterranean to the british was very important and could have made the difference in the North Africa campaign. Franco didn't bite, he'd rather wait and see.

Cautions, that one. Clung to power and preferred to keep Spain poor deliberately because improving on it, modernizing it, promoting economic development, would cause social changes that might undermine his power. Only fear of having the country become even more of an economic pygmy in Europe and getting easily invaded and overthrown made him allow some progress.

And Spain could use some quick progress under a socialist government! Southern Spain in particular had a hideously bad distribution of land, in a society that was still very much agricultural (still is to an extent, agriculture and tourism are important economic basis sustaining the rest). Those attacks on the church were not born of urban atheism, they came from rural hatred for the role the church played in backing the large landholders. The greater the poverty, the greater the repression keeping it in place. And the bloodier the backlash when the war started.

 

[Zardnaar]

I don't think that Hitler cared about such details.

Franco told Hitler to F off.

 

[innonimatu]

Franco told Hitler to F off.

No he didn't. In Europe 1940 no continental government the UK dared tell Hitler that, they and made up excuses not to join. If they dared. The british will attack out colonies, seize our islands. We'll join later pretty promise...

 

[klar_heiland]

Franco told Hitler to F off.

and the 47000 spanish volunteers of Blue_Division had absolutely nothing to do with Franco?

 

[Zardnaar]

and the 47000 spanish volunteers of Blue_Division had absolutely nothing to do with Franco?

Citizens if multiple nation's supported Hitler your point?

Thousands of Americans went to the pre war USSR as well. SS recruited from the occupied territories.

Citizens if the USSR fought against the Soviets. People picked sides based on ideology.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

People picked sides based on ideology.

Don't they always?

 

[Josu]

Franco was more right wing authoritarian and the regime died with him.

LOL

 

[Zardnaar]

LOL

I might be getting mixed up with Portugal next door and Salazar.

Franco died and Spain transitioned to democracy iirc.

 

[Akka]

Spain would be worse off IMHO had the Commies win. Franco didn't drive Spain into the ground.

I highly doubt that Spain would have been worse if Franco lost, and he didn't really made Spain any wealthier. And all that doesn't count of his oppressive regime.

Let's remember : it's not the Commies who started a Stalin-backed revolution to throw down a legitimate government and replace it with "people's republic" dictatorship. It's Franco who kept going a military coup against a legitimate government to replace it with an authoritarian dictatorship (even if more a religious conservatist than an actual fascist one).

Spain was ruined because of Franco, not saved of ruin by him. Spain wouldn't have been taken over by Commie more than France was after the 1936 elections put about the same sort of government in place.

 

[Cloud_Strife]

Literal whataboutism in this thread

 

[Zardnaar]

I highly doubt that Spain would have been worse if Franco lost, and he didn't really made Spain any wealthier. And all that doesn't count of his oppressive regime.

Let's remember : it's not the Commies who started a Stalin-backed revolution to throw down a legitimate government and replace it with "people's republic" dictatorship. It's Franco who kept going a military coup against a legitimate government to replace it with an authoritarian dictatorship (even if more a religious conservatist than an actual fascist one).

Spain was ruined because of Franco, not saved of ruin by him. Spain wouldn't have been taken over by Commie more than France was after the 1936 elections put about the same sort of government in place.

Not claiming Francos nice and yeah Spain would have been better off without him.

As far as crappy authoritarian dictatorships go Spain wasn't to bad.

The ex communist countries are the poorest in Europe. Ex Soviet Republics and some of them pre Communism were a lot better off.

Very crappy right wing regimes were things like Stroesd whatever his name was in Paraguay. Franco looks good by comparison.

But yeah understandable if the Spanish no longer want that stupid tomb.

 

[Akka]

The ex communist countries are the poorest in Europe. Ex Soviet Republics and some of them pre Communism were a lot better off.

Yes, but again the Republicans weren't stalinist, they were simply leftist, just like the French government in 1936, and France didn't became a USSR satellite. Spain wouldn't have become one either. Franco might not have been the worst authoritarian, but that's damning with faint praise, he still was a big net negative in Spain history.

But yeah understandable if the Spanish no longer want that stupid tomb.

That's an understatement ^^

 

[AmazonQueen]

Had the Repubs won they would have been a Stalin puppet and probably gone the same way as Hungary, Czechoslovakia etc and the other Soviet satellites.

Not if France and the UK had done the legally correct thing and supported the democratically elected legitimate government against a military coup. The French and UK drove the Republicans into Stalin's hands.

 

[Zardnaar]

Not if France and the UK had done the legally correct thing and supported the democratically elected legitimate government against a military coup. The French and UK drove the Republicans into Stalin's hands.

And do what? England hasn't rearmed in 36. French had their own problems.

 

[AmazonQueen]

And do what? England hasn't rearmed in 36. French had their own problems.

They could have allowed arms sales and free flow of volunteers to the Republicans.
They could have used their vastly superior navies to effectively blockade other countries aid.
Italy and Germany weren't ready for war and wouldn't have gone to war for Spain.
Instead they starved a legitimate democratic government of arms whilst doing nothing to prevent Italian and German aid for the rebels.

As for Franco not being a Fascist I'd agree with you. The Falangists were only one of the groups in his coalition of the far right. Still responsible for up to 200,000 executions as well as all the deaths in the Civil War.

 

[Josu]

I might be getting mixed up with Portugal next door and Salazar.

Franco died and Spain transitioned to democracy iirc.

Franco died the 20th November of 1975, but the Movimiento Nacional did not. There is an entry in Engllish wikipedia about the Movimiento Nacional if you want to try to follow my point.
Spain transitioned to a democracy that had (and some people would say that still has) the Movimiento Nacional in every single power of the state.

The 22th of November of this year Juan Carlos was crowned: 'I swear to God and on the holy gospels, to fulfill and enforce the fundamental laws of the kingdom and keep loyalty to the principles that inform the Movimiento Nacional'

The 5th of July Juan Carlos designed Adolfo Suarez as prime minister. Suarez was unknow to most people, who was he? He was the former Secretary of Movimiento Nacional

In 1976 Manuel Fraga founded Alianza Popular (Currently known as Partido Popular, PP is currently main opposition party), who was Fraga? Former Franco's minister and yes, member of Movimiento Nacional. He also was Minister of Interior from 1975 to 1976, appointend by the king

In 1940 Franco founded the Tribunal Orden Publico (TOP) a special court to manage political crimes. Judges had to be members of Movimiento Nacional. This court was dissolved the 4th of January of 1977. The 5th of January was founded the Audiencia Nacional (AN), the judges that where in TOP, remained in AN.

The very same Generals that Franco designed remained as rulers in the armed forces.
The very same Commanders that Franco designed remained as rulers in the Policia Nacional.
The very same Generals that Franco designed remained as rules in the Guardia Civil.

There is still in 2019 members of Guardia Civil and the armed forces that conmemorate the 23th of February of 1981's coup d'état attempt

 

[Zardnaar]

Franco died the 20th November of 1975, but the Movimiento Nacional did not. There is an entry in Engllish wikipedia about the Movimiento Nacional if you want to try to follow my point.
Spain transitioned to a democracy that had (and some people would say that still has) the Movimiento Nacional in every single power of the state.

The 22th of November of this year Juan Carlos was crowned: 'I swear to God and on the holy gospels, to fulfill and enforce the fundamental laws of the kingdom and keep loyalty to the principles that inform the Movimiento Nacional'

The 5th of July Juan Carlos designed Adolfo Suarez as prime minister. Suarez was unknow to most people, who was he? He was the former Secretary of Movimiento Nacional

In 1976 Manuel Fraga founded Alianza Popular (Currently known as Partido Popular, PP is currently main opposition party), who was Fraga? Former Franco's minister and yes, member of Movimiento Nacional. He also was Minister of Interior from 1975 to 1976, appointend by the king

In 1940 Franco founded the Tribunal Orden Publico (TOP) a special court to manage political crimes. Judges had to be members of Movimiento Nacional. This court was dissolved the 4th of January of 1977. The 5th of January was founded the Audiencia Nacional (AN), the judges that where in TOP, remained in AN.

The very same Generals that Franco designed remained as rulers in the armed forces.
The very same Commanders that Franco designed remained as rulers in the Policia Nacional.
The very same Generals that Franco designed remained as rules in the Guardia Civil.

There is still in 2019 members of Guardia Civil and the armed forces that conmemorate the 23th of February of 1981's coup d'état attempt

That's internal Spanish stuff to sort out. When the iron curtain came down communist parties remained, some have even won reelection.

Generally to convince elites to transition to democracy you don't persecute them (post iron curtain, apartheid). It's how you convince them to stand down without a bloodbath.

You can't really blockade in peacetime when other superpowers are involved. Hell USA couldn't blockade Vietnam in wartime.

 

[Josu]

That's internal Spanish stuff to sort out. When the iron curtain came down communist parties remained, some have even won reelection.

Generally to convince elites to transition to democracy you don't persecute them (post iron curtain, apartheid). It's how you convince them to stand down without a bloodbath.

You can't really blockade in peacetime when other superpowers are involved. Hell USA couldn't blockade Vietnam in wartime.

You said that the regime died with him, after the transition the Movimiento and Francoism was still the rulling gang.
I do know pretty well the reasons, but I don't care about them, I am not going to judge transition spaniard's, because I know it was not easy, but come on, don't tell me that Franco's regime ended with him, because it is absolutelly false

 

[AmazonQueen]

That's internal Spanish stuff to sort out. When the iron curtain came down communist parties remained, some have even won reelection.

Generally to convince elites to transition to democracy you don't persecute them (post iron curtain, apartheid). It's how you convince them to stand down without a bloodbath.

You can't really blockade in peacetime when other superpowers are involved. Hell USA couldn't blockade Vietnam in wartime.

It was easy to supply Vietnam by land. Spain has a land border with 1 country, France. Germany and Italy weren't naval superpowers.