Zardnaar
Deity
That's cruel think of the fish.
Franco will move.
- Thread starter abradley
- Start date
- Status
That's cruel think of the fish.
Thorgalaeg
Deity
No, dumping trash into the ocean is illegal. They buried him along his wife in the family crypt at El Pardo cemetery. The only famous guy remaining in the valley is Jose Antonio Primo de Rivera, founder of the Falange who was executed for rebellion by the republicans at the beginning of the civil war and elevated to martyr status by the franquist regime. Nobody has expressed much interest in removing him for now.
Curiously Franco never officially said where he wanted to be buried. Some say he preferred the default family crypt, where he is now, and not at the Valley, which was an idea from his acolytes, not from himself. In any case he didn't specify any place in his testament. In fact it didn't make much sense to bury him at the 'Valley of the Fallen' since he didn't fall at the civil war.
Last edited:
Traitorfish
The Tighnahulish Kid
I keep saying that anti-Communism is inextricable from fascism. Hell, I keep saying that anti-Communism is inextricable from soft Holocaust denial, and Zardnaar has taken it upon himself to prove that one, too.
Zardnaar
Deity
Any authoritarian regime us bad but this was in the era of Stalins USSR.
There's a reason a lot if countries were somewhat pro fascist in the 30s.
Obviously we know now that was a bad idea
This was in the time frame where Stalin starved millions to death in the Ukraine and a few years later initiated the purge where they murdered over a million people.
They didn't know the finer details of Stalins autrocities.
Western Europe was also full of white Russians with stories of the civil war, thousands of Americans went to the USSR in the early 30s, had their passports taken away and most died in the purge. A few managed to contact the American embassy but it was a tough luck situation we don't want you back.
They got shipped to the gulag.
One of Stalins henchmen Blokhin iirc personally murdered 5000 people.
Post war you had Maos China and Cambodia.
Fascism crashed and burned, communism kept up with industrial scale murder well into the 1970s.
And most if this murder happened in peacetime to their own population. No fascist regime murdered their own people on that scale.
Any revolution is going to kill people (Franco, Castro) but that scale is just off the charts. In peace time on their own people.
The edited works of Lenin are the nice version, unedited he's outright advocating murder.
There's plenty of nasty regimes out thete, left, right or something else doesn't matter.
If I say something like I would rather live in Nazi Germany over Stalins USSR it's because I have a way higher chance of survival that's it. Castro's Cuba is an improvement over Cambodia.
If you're Jewish obviously the USSR is an improvement over Nazi Germany, Gorbachev s USSR is an improvement over Stalins.
They're all awful but these days I would pick say Belarus over North Korea.
There's a reason a lot if countries were somewhat pro fascist in the 30s.
Obviously we know now that was a bad idea
This was in the time frame where Stalin starved millions to death in the Ukraine and a few years later initiated the purge where they murdered over a million people.
They didn't know the finer details of Stalins autrocities.
Western Europe was also full of white Russians with stories of the civil war, thousands of Americans went to the USSR in the early 30s, had their passports taken away and most died in the purge. A few managed to contact the American embassy but it was a tough luck situation we don't want you back.
They got shipped to the gulag.
One of Stalins henchmen Blokhin iirc personally murdered 5000 people.
Post war you had Maos China and Cambodia.
Fascism crashed and burned, communism kept up with industrial scale murder well into the 1970s.
And most if this murder happened in peacetime to their own population. No fascist regime murdered their own people on that scale.
Any revolution is going to kill people (Franco, Castro) but that scale is just off the charts. In peace time on their own people.
The edited works of Lenin are the nice version, unedited he's outright advocating murder.
There's plenty of nasty regimes out thete, left, right or something else doesn't matter.
If I say something like I would rather live in Nazi Germany over Stalins USSR it's because I have a way higher chance of survival that's it. Castro's Cuba is an improvement over Cambodia.
If you're Jewish obviously the USSR is an improvement over Nazi Germany, Gorbachev s USSR is an improvement over Stalins.
They're all awful but these days I would pick say Belarus over North Korea.
Franco didn't overthrow a Stalinist regime. He overthrew a democratically elected liberal Republican government that was supported by anarchists and the left.
Traitorfish
The Tighnahulish Kid
Do you or do you not understand what happened to Germany in 1945?
Zardnaar
Deity
I do. Still have a better chance of survival.
Traitorfish
The Tighnahulish Kid
Quite possibly, but you understand that the reason you are making this extremely morbid calculation is because of a war which the Nazis started, voluntarily, which nobody made them start, because they thought it was a good idea? You don't think that this has any implications for the insistence that fascism is less-un-good than communism?
Timsup2nothin
Deity
- Joined
- Apr 2, 2013
- Messages
- 46,737
Well, most of us do. You certainly seem far from convinced.
"Homage to Catalonia
Homage to Catalonia is George Orwell's personal account of his experiences and observations fighting for the Republican army during the Spanish Civil War. The war was one of the shaping events on his political outlook and a significant part of what led him to write, in 1946, "Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for Democratic Socialism, as I understand it."
Continued
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homage_to_Catalonia
My impression of the Spanish Civil War it was a war that was going to happen no matter what anyone did.
IIRC, once read where the two leaders were on the phone trying to figure a peace and finally one said 'If you and I came to a peace accord tonight, we'd be before a firing squad in the morning.'
Who were the Good Guys, no one.
For every atrocity committed by the Nationalists there's one by the Republicans.
Homage to Catalonia is George Orwell's personal account of his experiences and observations fighting for the Republican army during the Spanish Civil War. The war was one of the shaping events on his political outlook and a significant part of what led him to write, in 1946, "Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for Democratic Socialism, as I understand it."
Continued
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homage_to_Catalonia
My impression of the Spanish Civil War it was a war that was going to happen no matter what anyone did.
IIRC, once read where the two leaders were on the phone trying to figure a peace and finally one said 'If you and I came to a peace accord tonight, we'd be before a firing squad in the morning.'
Who were the Good Guys, no one.
For every atrocity committed by the Nationalists there's one by the Republicans.
Last edited:
Zardnaar
Deity
People don't really understand the 1930s though. The pop culture view isn't really 100% correct.
Fascism has it origins in France, and it was sold as a 3rd way between capitalism and communism.
In American media it's generally portrayed as comical or evil but there's no real attempt to explain why it appealed to perfectly rational people.
People backwards project modern values into the 30s.
There's also a tendency to whitewash the crimes of the Communists or downplay it. We have people openly advocating violence on these forums for example. Didnt work so well in the 30s regardless of what side you are on.
Francos was a fairly crappy regime but it wasn't the worst in the world and the Spanish are dealing with his legacy but they're not killing each other over it. That might come later with Catalonia.
Spain's also in a better place than anywhere Communism took root.
Cloud_Strife
Deity
And there in lie the issue.
Zardnaar
Deity
At least Orwell condemned both sides, he wasn't a useful idiot.
Senethro
Overlord
The personal content of your posts continues to shrink. Now its just a link and wiki C&P.
Why do you not share your thoughts?
Cloud_Strife
Deity
He's already stated that he prefers a fascist regime to a socialist state
I did:
My impression of the Spanish Civil War it was a war that was going to happen no matter what anyone did.
IIRC, once read where the two leaders were on the phone trying to figure a peace and finally one said 'If you and I came to a peace accord tonight, we'd be before a firing squad in the morning.'
Who were the Good Guys, no one.
For every atrocity committed by the Nationalists there's one by the Republicans.
Where did I post that?
Timsup2nothin
Deity
- Joined
- Apr 2, 2013
- Messages
- 46,737
Sounds like the pending disorder in the US.
Cloud_Strife
Deity
Nah fascists are objectively worse unless you're willing to collaborate with or join them.
Timsup2nothin
Deity
- Joined
- Apr 2, 2013
- Messages
- 46,737
"The Socialist have won, thank the lord they didn't win the civil war."
From your OP. No other way to take that, really.
- Status
