Free buildings from Wonders after conquest

[ExpiredReign]

I've only just now noticed that the free buildings from Wonders like:
Great Library -- library
Great Wall -- walls
Great Lighthouse -- lighthouse

aren't retained upon capture.

Are there any reasons why changing this to have them given back as 'free' couldn't be used?
That's free as, also no upkeep, not just retained upon capture.

TBH I hadn't noticed this and haven't really given it any thought, it just so happened that the game I'm in now I purposely let Ethiopia build all those wonders before taken their capital. I used to play as a wonder-whore and rarely saw captured Wonders like those.
It may well be a vanilla trait but unless I ask...

 

[Funak]

I've noticed this as well.

Honestly from a gameplay perspective it does make sense, the free buildings represent the fact that the wonder work as the building, them losing this feature upon capture is pretty weird.

That being said I'm not sure if you can do anything about it, like marking these free buildings as having a 0% raze chance or something .

 

[Cerest]

Posted about this a long time ago, this was Gazebo's response.

I thought it was a weird reason >_> but I didn't want to put in the effort to argue for it. A Great Library is still a library and should always retain the bonuses of the library.

I've been roleplaying it as "parts of the building have been damaged during conquest and function at a reduced capacity" to try to rationalize why the free buildings can disappear. That said, if it the Great Lighthouse was "damaged," it shouldn't cost an entire Lighthouse to "repair" it (repair being, build an entirely new Lighthouse).

I'm not sure if you can modify the conquestprob value to make Free Buildings always stick around.

 

[Funak]

I'm not sure if you can modify the conquestprob value to make Free Buildings always stick around.

You don't want all free buildings sticking around, you don't want Carthaginian harbors or the free buildings from ideologies to always stick around for example. Just the ones related to wonders.

 

[ExpiredReign]

Yeah I think @Gazebo's logic is flawed in these examples. Sure from a game perspective there are 2 buildings, the wonder and the free generic one, but thematically they should stay, if for nothing else the free upkeep on the generic building.

 

[Gazebo]

There should be a bonus for being the first to create a wonder. You don't, for example, get the free policy if you capture the Oracle, nor do you get the free GP from Pisa. And so on. This is intentional.

G

 

[Cerest]

You don't want all free buildings sticking around, you don't want Carthaginian harbors or the free buildings from ideologies to always stick around for example. Just the ones related to wonders.

I'm not saying I want every free building to be sticking around. Each building has an individual conquestprob value. Libraries, Lighthouse, Walls each have their own value.

What I'm saying is that I'm not sure you can change the conquestprob value on demand for buildings that are tagged as "free" without having to do other internal shenanigans. Then again I've been away for a long time and I don't know what has changed D:

but thematically they should stay, if for nothing else the free upkeep on the generic building.

I also feel that at the very least the free upkeep should stay if the building is destroyed.

There should be a bonus for being the first to create a wonder. You don't, for example, get the free policy if you capture the Oracle, nor do you get the free GP from Pisa. And so on. This is intentional.

G

While the Oracle's reward is a policy, thematically it's a "revelation" or "idea"; the Oracle itself is not a policy. If I stomped up there with swords and pikes (conquered it) and demanded her to reveal something to me she's gonna say no and will tell me to gtfo.

The Great Person is also a person, it isn't chained to the Leaning Tower; the Leaning Tower itself is not a person. If we were playing some fantasy game and some Great Engineer named Atlas was cursed to hold up the Leaning Tower until the end of time I would see your point but that isn't happening.

However, a Great Lighthouse is a lighthouse, a Great Library is still a library. Their identities are their respective buildings.

 

[ExpiredReign]

There should be a bonus for being the first to create a wonder. You don't, for example, get the free policy if you capture the Oracle, nor do you get the free GP from Pisa. And so on. This is intentional.

G

Sorry but I don't buy that. Sure you miss out on the free units or policies or techs but they are ephemeral, buildings are not.
I've always viewed the free buildings as just a necessary mechanic needed by the game to provide the yields those buildings produce. If wonders could also be configured to provide the same yields then that would suffice.
Something along the lines that instead of the Great Lighthouse being of the BUILDING_GREAT_LIGHTHOUSE class if it was of the BUILDINGCLASS_LIGHTHOUSE then the modifiers and yields would just apply to the wonder and there would be no need to have the free building. Same thing for the other wonders.

 

[vyyt]

If wonders could also be configured to provide the same yields then that would suffice.

But then the wonders and the respective (now free) buildings should either be mutually exclusive or you would be getting the yields from both. I am not saying it would be a problem, just pointing it out.

For me this is not a big deal, but if it is not too much of a hassle to code it, then I would prefere the free buildings from wonders staying after capture. I agree with what Cerest said - the comment was very funny by the way However, if it is too complicated, I am fine with the way it is now.

 

[Funak]

There should be a bonus for being the first to create a wonder. You don't, for example, get the free policy if you capture the Oracle, nor do you get the free GP from Pisa. And so on. This is intentional.

Yeah I don't buy this either. You get a free library for building the great library to represent that the great library works as a library. It doesn't suddenly lose the ability to be a library once you've captured it.
I mean it's not like the free library represents that the people was so happy about finishing the great library that they instantly built an extra library next to it and somehow made some sneaky moves to avoid paying taxes for it.

 

[tu_79]

New managers of the Great Buildings are incompetent and that kind of bussiness wasn't their idea to begin with, that's why the don't get as much money as the former managers.

 

[Gazebo]

Yeah I don't buy this either. You get a free library for building the great library to represent that the great library works as a library. It doesn't suddenly lose the ability to be a library once you've captured it.
I mean it's not like the free library represents that the people was so happy about finishing the great library that they instantly built an extra library next to it and somehow made some sneaky moves to avoid paying taxes for it.

Not budging on this. There needs to be a reward for being the first to build most wonders. Conquering a city and losing free buildings is a means of providing this. Furthermore, rewriting the code to not remove free buildings would buff players that went Authority and conquered a foreign tradition Capital. Or conquering Dido's cities. And so on. So no, not changing.

G

 

[Cerest]

Furthermore, rewriting the code to not remove free buildings would buff players that went Authority and conquered a foreign tradition Capital.
G

Wait, what? Why isn't there a capture chance modifier/conquestprob on the Tradition buildings? Just set them to "Never Capture" if you don't want people to farm Tradition Capitals. Monuments already have "Never Capture," just apply it to the Tradition buildings as well.

As for Dido, I don't see why it's that bad to give the conqueror a % chance that the harbor is retained. Infrastructure during war doesn't always magically go away when you conquer territory.

I attribute Carthage instantly gaining harbors upon city creation because I assume they were very seafaring people. Those people don't suddenly disappear and forget everything they know about the sea when a conqueror shows up.

If you think people will try to farm Dido for their harbors just change the capture chance to something lower than the current 66%. If you can somehow out-navy/out-army Dido on >King difficulty to be able to even capture her cities early on you are doing wayyyyy better than I do o.o

Also, I remember a discussion about moving sea city connections to something earlier (was it lighthouse?). Is this still happening? If so is Dido's unique changing as well to give free lighthouses instead of harbors?

 

[phantomaxl1207]

If a Tradition player loses their Capital are their Policy Buildings lost forever? Or do they go to the new Capital?

 

[ExpiredReign]

Not budging on this. There needs to be a reward for being the first to build most wonders. Conquering a city and losing free buildings is a means of providing this. Furthermore, rewriting the code to not remove free buildings would buff players that went Authority and conquered a foreign tradition Capital. Or conquering Dido's cities. And so on. So no, not changing.

G

There is a reward for building the wonder first: you have built the wonder!!
If later you are too incompetent to retain that wonder that you spent so much time/money/production, then that is your penalty: losing the wonder.

On the other hand if you play in a style that is building armies/navies and taking those wonders, which also involves a lot of time/money/production, then you too should be rewarded for taking those wonders from the incompetents that built them!!

So sorry but I'm not budging on this either. The entire premise of reward for building them is flawed. It is the wonder that is the reward if you can't hold onto them, then that is not the fault of the conqueror who is then punished by the player's incompetence.

EDIT:
Just a note about the statement "Not budging on this." So Vox Populi has moved from a community based design to a dictatorship?

 

[Enginseer]

I think buildings that should realistically function as their free building should stay like The Great Library and the Hanging Garden. Would be strange if I built a library when I already have a Great Library in the same city. Not sure about the Oracle however.

 

[Funak]

Not sure about the Oracle however.

No one is really asking for weird "when completed receive this" wonders to provide there onetime effects once again. For me these buildings are part of the wonders so I really don't see a reason why they would be destroyed in conquest. For me, this is about as obvious as cultural wonders keeping their great works slots (and any great works in them).

 

[ExpiredReign]

... For me, this is about as obvious as cultural wonders keeping their great works slots (and any great works in them).

Exactly! Well said.

 

[Gazebo]

There is a reward for building the wonder first: you have built the wonder!!
If later you are too incompetent to retain that wonder that you spent so much time/money/production, then that is your penalty: losing the wonder.

On the other hand if you play in a style that is building armies/navies and taking those wonders, which also involves a lot of time/money/production, then you too should be rewarded for taking those wonders from the incompetents that built them!!

So sorry but I'm not budging on this either. The entire premise of reward for building them is flawed. It is the wonder that is the reward if you can't hold onto them, then that is not the fault of the conqueror who is then punished by the player's incompetence.

EDIT:
Just a note about the statement "Not budging on this." So Vox Populi has moved from a community based design to a dictatorship?

Not a dictatorship. I'm informing you that there's a design element at work here, but the system for city conquest and the existence/transfer of buildings/wonders is incredibly complex. This isn't just a 'change a bool' or 'flip a switch.' You are talking about a complete and utter rework of how building logic functions for city capture.

So this request isn't going to happen. I've made my peace with that, and I've embraced it by tying it into the 'original builder gets a buff, conqueror gets a weaker wonder' concept (which, in my opinion, feels just fine from a balance perspective).

G

 

[ExpiredReign]

A word of advice then, in the future try saying something like:

I tried that but I can't see a way to make it work.

Would've saved a lot of discussion if it was said straight up that it isn't currently doable.

It's similar to saying to a child:

Because I said so!

rather than:

Because you might get hurt.