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From demigod to klutz

Discussion in 'Civ3 - General Discussions' started by walletta, Sep 9, 2014.

  1. Lanzelot

    Lanzelot Moderator Moderator

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    Well, here is an article from 2002 explaining the idea:
    Forestry Operations
    There is nothing new under the sun ;)

    That was pre-C3C, where a forest chop still took 10 turns. Now in C3C, where forest chopping costs only 4 turns, this technique is of course much more powerful.

    You can harvest each tile only once. So if there had already been a chop on a certain tile, planting a forest and chopping it again, will give you nothing.
    So in the beginning, people had to draw little maps while playing, keeping track of which tiles had already been harvested and which not... So tedious.
    Nowadays we fortunately have CivAsstistII, which provide this information.
     
  2. walletta

    walletta King

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    LOL, gadzooks again! I would never have figured this out :). So, i am only 12 years behind the times. I'm catching up! :D
     
  3. walletta

    walletta King

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    I returned to my first love: ROME and played a huge DG Pangea game intending to sword-rush India, a weakling in the early phases. As I was getting ready to pounce, the Mongols demanded tribute from the other side of the globe. They meant it, too. Like Hitler, I thought there would be time to crush Poland before turning on France and I continued with my preparations. Alas, the Mongol horseman made it just in time to be a serious pest but, like Napoleon at Waterloo, I treated them like Blücher's advance guard and set about Wellington, er, India undaunted.

    Sadly, I had delegated conduct of the Indian campaign to that bloke who lost the legions in the Teutoburgerwald (Varus?). This idiot managed not to notice a river slowing the concentration against Bombay and then found the Indian spearmen of this hilltop town unwilling to surrender without a fight, even to Rome's mighty legions. Asked to explain to the Senate why he had considered only 3 catapults enough, Varus(?) unintelligibly replied that he 'thought he was playing emperor level' at which he was declared insane and put to death. At the 'other end' of the (not very large) 'empire' meanwhile, the Mongols succeeded in sacking a Roman town.

    So I tried the Aztecs, as I like the look of those cute little Jaguar warriors and thought they would be useful for connecting fast with other Civs, which they are, but more work is needed and I am going back to the Babs anyway.

    Here is the question: assuming a city ring of 5 plus the capital, what is the optimal distribution of functions to these core cities in the ancient era? I assume the capital will usually be the settler pump and another city will get a pre-build going. What about the other four? Two military and two worker pumps? Three and one? Or something else? Advice, suggestions please.
     
  4. tjs282

    tjs282 Socially distancing since 1975

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    Easy to do, especially among Hills/Mountains (as I found out to my/our cost during my second turnset of our SG, when I tried to re-take a culture-flipped Copenhagen (on a Hill) with 2 eHorsemen vs a single rSpear, and lost them both -- turned out that that tile was also surrounded by rivers, which could only be seen on a 'clean map' (CTRL-SHIFT-N) with Hills/Mountains hidden... :( )
    Nonetheless, I :lol:'d at this :)
    Given an inland starting location, you should usually be able to fit at least 6-8 first-ring cities at around CxxC N/E/S/W (i.e. distance 4) to CxxxC NE/SE/SW/NW (also distance 4) from the capital and still be able to get all them working 12 tiles at Pop12...
    Regarding Settler and Worker-pumps: I'd suggest one of each (more experienced players may disagree -- so follow their advice, not mine!), and the 'magic numbers' for these are:
    • With a Gran:
      • +5 FPT and 6-8 SPT at Pop4-6 or 5-7 => 4T Settlers
      • +3-4 FPT and 4-6 SPT at Pop4-6 or 5-7 => 5T Settlers
      • +5 FPT and 5 SPT at Pop 3-6 = 2T Workers
      • +2 FPT and 2 SPT at Pop 2-6 => 5T Workers
    • Without a Gran:
      • +4 FPT and 2 SPT at Pop2+ => 5T Workers
      • +2 FPT and 1 SPT at Pop1+ => 10T Workers (not really a 'pump' as such, but can be done e.g in resisting/ 90% corrupt cities)
    Yes, you may well be forced to use your capital as your Settler-pump initially, but since the pump-cycle really only works at Pop4+ (and assuming you're still in Despotism), it should also build other things first while it grows, such as rWarrior(s) to protect/police your soon-to-be-built cities (and/or Scouts) to explore, and at least one Settler to get the second (Barracks? Harbour? Research? Settler-pump?) city going (along with a Worker to improve it?). If it's to be your pump, it should start on the Gran at around Pop3-4, so that it's ready to start pumping at Pop4-5. Once you've got your 1st-ring cities placed though, then you should be aiming to get your capital growing towards Pop12 (i.e. use other cities to produce additional Workers/Settlers), since it will be your best all-round city for much of the early game, so you want it as large as possible. If/when further growth in your capital would cause rioting, you can always set it to 0FPT and high-SPT for building Settlers/Workers again -- and/or (pre)building Wonders...
    Given the near infinitude of possible starting positions and strategies available, I don't think it's possible to be 100% prescriptive. If you didn't plan/ plant the cities with a particular purpose or long-term strategy in mind (possibly unwise at DG+...? :nono: ;) ), then I think the best advice when deciding what to do with them post facto would be to play to the cities' (and your chosen Civ's) strengths, and maybe develop your strategy (i.e. your intended VC) accordingly:
    • if low FPT/ CPT but high SPT => Barracks town
      • I think out of 5-6 cities, you should have at least 2 Barracks in the early game, maybe even 3-4 on Pangaeas/ high difficulties, when everyone has immediate access to your land (and you can let the AIs build all the early Wonders for you!). On a Continents map, you should be able to get away with having 1 high-SPT town (pre)building Wonders (at least at Emp and below, maybe not at DG+)
    • if high FPT/CPT but low(er) SPT (e.g. a coastal or river+grass town) => Harbour=gold and/or Lib=research town
      • You may also want to consider (pre)building Colossus/ CopsObs/ SETI in a high-commerce coastal town...
    And bear in mind that you don't need to stick with your initial decision either: a city may start out as a Rax-town, then become a Worker-pump (keep or sell the Rax, depending on whether you need the GPT), then later go back to building military, or build a Lib for research/culture, or vice versa... The number of tiles which need to be improved to make any one city useful for a particular purpose will also have a large bearing on what you might want/ are able to do with it at various points throughout the (early) game.
     
  5. walletta

    walletta King

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    Thanks for the reply. How do you sell Barracks? Or any improvement for that matter? I had no idea this was possible. What are the maths? Do you get money or shields for it and who buys it (them?)?
     
  6. tjs282

    tjs282 Socially distancing since 1975

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    I'm astonished that you don't know this either! However have you been winning at Emp all this time...? ;)

    You sell improvements in the city screen(s), by right-clicking on the list of improvements on the left-hand side, selecting 'Sell [improvement]' on the pop-up menu, and then confirming with the Domestic Advisor. You get 1/4 of the shield-cost in gold (rounded down) immediately added to your treasury, and selling any improvement which requires upkeep will also save you the maintenance GPT on subsequent turns.

    e.g. I often sell Walls (20s, or 10s for Mil-Civs) once a city hits Pop7, when the +50% 'wall-defence' bonus is replaced by the +50% 'city-defence' bonus. Selling Walls will put 5g (or 2g for Mil-Civs) into my treasury, although doing so doesn't save any maintenance-GPT in C3C (in Vanilla, Wall-maintenance cost(s) 1 GPT, IIRC).

    You can also sell any improvements which were hand-built before you build/steal a GW which provides them for free (e.g. Temples from ToA, Walls from GreatWall, Rax from SunTzu, Hydros from Hoover), but doing so will only give you immediate cash-in-hand, it won't save you any GPT (because the GW 'pays' the maintenance on any such hand-built improvements). Also, bear in mind that if you then lose/raze the GW-city, you will also immediately lose all the sold improvements in your other cities.

    Nonetheless, I usually also sell any hand-built Barracks after acquiring SunTzu, and if I built any CoalPlants (they're expensive, so I usually don't bother -- just beeline to Electronics), I'll sell them just before I expect to get Hoovers (because otherwise -- I think -- the free Hydro will make the CPs disappear).
     
  7. walletta

    walletta King

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    By now, you should not be astonished at my ignorance of the rules of the game. It's been on display in just about every post! I am shocked to discover yet another gaping hole in my knowledge. Thanks for filling it.

    I think your question should rather be, not how I manage to win Emperor games but how come you aren't winning at Deity :D

    ETA it's possible I didn't know this one because, as a Mac user, I don't do much right-clicking on anything. For a long time I played on a Mac Book pro with the finger board thing instead of a mouse. Don't ask me how you right-click on that.
     
  8. tjs282

    tjs282 Socially distancing since 1975

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    You're welcome
    Erm, lack of time (=lack of practice), lack of confidence, and probably downright laziness/ unwillingness to risk starting a losing game, if I'm honest. Plus, most of what I've learned about high-level play has been acquired in the last 6 months, during which time I've played about 4 games in total (in order of starting):
    • Monarch, Standard Continents, Vanilla Romans (solo, de facto Space Race)
      • 100% played, Won
      • This was actually supposed to be a Dom game, but after wiping 4 of the 7 AICivs (the Russians, Aztecs, Zulus and Greeks -- after they'd killed the Chinese) off my (huge) continent, it still turned out not to be quite big enough on its own, so rather than going overseas to kill the Americans (who I'd been friendly with throughout) or the Iroquois (who had DoW'd me -- and then nuked me when they started losing badly to my Armies! -- but who were too far away for me to start organising an invasion at that stage), I defaulted to a quick Space VC. Again :rolleyes:
    • Monarch, Standard Continents, Vanilla Iroquois (solo, Space Race)
      • 100% played, Won
      • Kind of proud of this one -- first ever game where I'd set up a perfect RCP, and killed the Egyptians, the Zulus and finally the Persians, while the Japs cleared their continent and the Germans huddled on their cold mostly-Arctic island...
    • Emperor, Standard Continents, C3C Germans (SG, Space Race)
      • ~20% played (of what will probably be the 90% mark of the game), looks won from here :)
      • BUT given that it's an SG starring a bunch of (way) more experienced players, I can't claim much of the credit on this one... ;)
    • Monarch, Standard Continents, C3C Byzantines (solo, Space Race)
      • 100% played, Lost
      • The Hittites ran away on their side of the world, and killed nearly everyone (I'd pushed the Indians and then the Egyptians into the sea). I was 2 Techs, 1 Resource and 2 Components short when they launched
    • Monarch, Large Continents, C3C Chinese (solo, Domination)
      • 80% played, looks won: I have a ~70% rating on the 'Power' histogram, and should hit the 66/66 limit soon, possibly even without needing to invade Zululand
      • BUT this game was much easier than it should have been -- the number of AICivs had been significantly reduced -- 6 instead of 11(?). I should probably just quit and start another, but I don't like leaving my second ever Dom-VC attempt unfinished
    I hate touchpads -- only use the one on my wife's MacBook because I have to. I use a MacMini at work, but have a 2-button mouse...
     
  9. walletta

    walletta King

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    Velly intellesting. I did say, in the Emp to DG thread, I don't always win at Emp. I trash plenty of games. I just like to play at a level that is at or above the one I should be playing.
     
  10. walletta

    walletta King

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    I have thought of another advantage of playing tiny worlds - every war will be with an immediate neighbour and thus offers potential for expansion or other exploitation. This is unlike my recent experience (recounted above) of being picked on by an insane Civ from the farthest edge of the world for no reason at all.

    Other advantages, already mentioned but I think they should be collected here:

    • greater possibility of being the first to research an advance (more of them to go round) and trade it advantageously
    • greater possibility of being first to Philosophy
    • greater possibility of getting an early SGL
    • greater possibility of building an early GW (more of them to go round) such as the GL which negates the whole tech problem until the middle of the MA.

    I don't claim these advantages outweigh those offered by a huge world - I simply don't have the experience to be able to tell - but they don't seem negligible to me.

    Yet more are matters of personal taste, rather than objective advantages. For instance, I dislike having to click around in the F4 window for Civs for which there is insufficient room. Or keeping track of their trading situation etc Nor do I mind what others regard as a less interesting game. I don't like reaching the late middle ages in good shape only to learn that across the world a gigantic super power has been consuming its rivals and is so big that the game is over in a way I could not affect.

    ETA it is also easier to tweak the said advantages further by hand-picking opponents with inapt UUs or overlapping technical knowledge, a shameless tactic which I am happy to employ.
     
  11. CKS

    CKS Deity

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    The free hydro plant does not make the coal plants disappear, though only the latest plant gives the benefit. However, if you don't sell off the coal plant, you still get the pollution associated with it. I build coal plants in my 20k city very often, and occasionally forget to sell it once I build Hoover Dam. Usually I remember once I get hit by pollution there.
     
  12. walletta

    walletta King

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    I stopped playing Demigod for a while (still haven't managed a win) and am now playing small Pangea with the Iroqouis at Monarch level with hand-picked opponents England, Netherlands and India, trying to win as fast as possible. I have it down to about 350AD. It is very instructive in learning how to exploit an advantage quickly. Co-ordinating MWs, pikes, settlers and workers is quite tricky. It's like the panzers in 1941 spreading out in the Steppe and leaving the infantry behind.

    In my fastest game there were still large unsettled parts of the map and it took ages for my settlers to reach them and occupy turf. Maybe elimination is quicker than domination? Anyway I now have the goal of passing my sons very suspicious all time top score of 8,000 or so, playing Germany at regent level. Neither of us has any idea how he did that but I got up to 7,500 yesterday and expect to pass the record when I shave one or two hundred years off the time.

    I know none of this is new to the old hands but it is to me and completely transforms my view of the game.
     
  13. CKS

    CKS Deity

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    If you want to get a high score, play on a huge map. You get points for the number of tiles you own, and there are a lot more tiles to own on bigger maps.

    (You can also try playing on a tiny map with one opponent at lower difficulties. Merge your worker if needed to get a military unit out fast, find their capital in the first few turns before they have built a warrior and you can get a ridiculously early conquest victory. This gives a really high score, but it isn't really a fun game. It last only a minute or two, though, so if you want to blow away your son's high score, you could spend a little while on it. The Inca, with the Chasqui scout, work best.)
     
  14. walletta

    walletta King

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    I don't know how to fix it to play a single opponent. Not (presently) into huge maps but thanks for the info.

    I did once do something very weird, which I don't know how to repeat, but it involved building a worker or settler when my capital had no surplus pop and somehow ending the game at once on about turn 5 with 28,000 pts, but I don't count that.
     
  15. ville-v

    ville-v Chieftain

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    If you play a tiny map, the victory date and the difficulty level are practically only things that matter for the score. If you are going for the conquest, you had better choose a tiny map over a small map. Then just ramp the difficulty level as high as you can.

    Check this thread out for fast conquest. The pictures have been removed but you may get some ideas. http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=169512

    You can also download saved games here and research them. On a tiny map, HOF rules require two opponents, and elimination is banned as a victory condition. http://hof.civfanatics.net/civ3/index.php?condition=Conquest&mapSize=Any&submit=Go
     
  16. walletta

    walletta King

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    Thanks. I'll check this out.
     
  17. CKS

    CKS Deity

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    To set it to play a single opponent, just pick NONE for all your opponents but one when you start your game.
     
  18. Theov

    Theov Deity

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    I beeline to Scientific Method, build ToE get Electronics and build the Hoover Dam asap.

    I dunno, but that tech route helps me more than to go the industrious route.
     
  19. walletta

    walletta King

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    OK. Weird.

    I am continuing my Monarch-level, tiny Pangea map with the Iroquois and finding I can basically go to war with everybody at once since the enormous advantage of MM at this level gives me a tech lead and a big edge in output. If I build the T of A then all my cities expand to fill their 21 tiles and can be well spaced out. The thing that's slowing me down is walking settlers across the map to plant them in the vacant spaces. I have to find a better way. Probably using conquered towns to produce them once they stop resisting is the right way. Still haven't got above 8,000 yet though :mad:
     
  20. ville-v

    ville-v Chieftain

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    You had better focus to the war. Start it as early as you can to limit expansion of the AI. If my first town is a good settler factory, my second town starts pumping archers right away. Research iron working fast, so that you can take down all towns that have iron. Build lots of catapults.

    Place your towns 2 tiles from each other, build barracks, then build troops. I don't know about Monarch but on higher levels the AI will build towns (in place of the razed ones) fast enough so that you don't have to build any settlers to fill the gaps. You don't need infrastructure in your cities, sheer amount of towns makes sure you don't need to pay unit support and can afford running with 50% luxury if necessary. After iron working and mathematics I don't research anything.

    Conquer the ToA if you can, you only need to hold it for 5 turns to get all your cities to fill 21 tiles. The shields you need to build it are best used to build military.

    If you get 500 points from your territory and citizen, on Monarch you must finish by 175 AD to get 8000 points. If you win by 800 BC, you will get 12000 points in the same situation. Score formula: http://www.civfanatics.com/civ3/strategy/maximizing_score.php
     

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