Full Phoenician civilization (3d-ani-era)

CivArmy s. 1994

CivArmy s. 1994

Deity
Joined
Feb 7, 2004
Messages
3,641
Location
Campinas, Brazil
Civilization: Phoenicians
Bonuses: Commercial and Seafaring (Scientific)
Title and leader: King Hiram
Best/shunned government: Monarchy and Despotism
Agression: 01 (too low)
Cultural group: Mediterranian
Noun: Phoenicians
Adjective: Phoenician
Colors: Purple (Iroquois) and Pink (Arabs)
UU: Phoenician Bireme
Civilopedia entry: RACE_PHOENICIANS


Phoenicians013.jpg



Cities:
Byblos
Sidon
Tyre
Arvad
Berytus
Sarepta
Akhzib
Akko
Irqanata
Usanata
Shiana
Simirra
Kition
Sexi
Soluntum
Tharros
Tharros
Sulcis
Carteia
Motya
Panormus
Hadrametum
Sabrata
Girba
Melita
Pantelaria
Nora
Ebusos
Palma
Mago
Lixus


Military leaders:
Zakarbaal
Baalezoros
Luli
Baalu
Hasdrubal


Scientific ones:
Ithobaal
Ahiram
Hanno
Abi Baal
Baal-User


Civilopedia:


Phoenician Bireme, the UU:
This unit was done by Aaglo
It replaces galley and has one extra moviment per turn.
 
The Phonecians (now the Lebonese) are believe to have come from what are simply known as the Sea People. These sea people seem to have moved to the mediterranian from parts unknown. So the best example of what they probably looked like would be a less arabic looking lebonese.

I would suggest a larger nose that sticks out more from the face. Darker hair.
ps: I like the eyes.
 
The Phoenicians were actually the people who lived in the Levant before the Sea Peoples and the Hebrew arrived (it is controversial whether the Hebrew arrived at all or whether they were a branch of the 'Phoenicians' themselves).

'Phoenician' is the Greek name for the people, they called themselves 'Canaani' (biblical Canaanites). They are a Semitic people, as are the Arabs. The modern residents of Lebanon are probably a mix of ancient Canaani and Arab.

Here's the Phoenician city list I use, oldest to newest.

Byblos (Jebail)
Sidon
Tyre
Arvad (Aradus)
Berytus
Sarepta
Akhzib
Akko (Acre)
Irqanata
Usanata
Shiana
Simirra
Kition
Utica
Carthage
Abdera
Sexi
Gades
Malaca
Carteia
Motya
Panormus
Soluntum
Tharros
Sulcis
Panormus
Hadrametum
Leptis
Oea
Sabrata
Girba
Melita
Pantelaria
Caralis
Nora
Ebusos
Palma
Mago
Lixus
Hippo
Carthago Nova


And here are some Leaders:

Ahiram
Zakarbaal
Baalezoros (Belus)
Luli
Baalu
Hiram
Hamilcar
Hasdrubal
Hannibal

Your trait and colour choices are perfect.
 
What is your source for this? As the phoencians derived from the sea peoples is the current academic thinking on this.
This is not my theory. I've read about it (a little) and saw 2 specials on the history channel and the discovery channel that said the same thing.
Please site your source that is in despute with the history departments of several (if not all) of the most respected universities in the country.

As far as I can determine it, the Cannanites where a distinct and seperate people. And your odd claim that the hebrews are a derivation of the "pheonicans" is way out there to put it mildly.

Xyth said:
The Phoenicians were actually the people who lived in the Levant before the Sea Peoples and the Hebrew arrived (it is controversial whether the Hebrew arrived at all or whether they were a branch of the 'Phoenicians' themselves), and flys in the face of most accepted historical theories that I'm aware of.

'Phoenician' is the Greek name for the people, they called themselves 'Canaani' (biblical Canaanites). They are a Semitic people, as are the Arabs. The modern residents of Lebanon are probably a mix of ancient Canaani and Arab.
Click to expand...
 
Xyth said:
The Phoenicians were actually the people who lived in the Levant before the Sea Peoples and the Hebrew arrived (it is controversial whether the Hebrew arrived at all or whether they were a branch of the 'Phoenicians' themselves).

'Phoenician' is the Greek name for the people, they called themselves 'Canaani' (biblical Canaanites). They are a Semitic people, as are the Arabs. The modern residents of Lebanon are probably a mix of ancient Canaani and Arab.

Here's the Phoenician city list I use, oldest to newest.

Byblos (Jebail)
Sidon
Tyre
Arvad (Aradus)
Berytus
Sarepta
Akhzib
Akko (Acre)
Irqanata
Usanata
Shiana
Simirra
Kition
Utica
Carthage
Abdera
Sexi
Gades
Malaca
Carteia
Motya
Panormus
Soluntum
Tharros
Sulcis
Panormus
Hadrametum
Leptis
Oea
Sabrata
Girba
Melita
Pantelaria
Caralis
Nora
Ebusos
Palma
Mago
Lixus
Hippo
Carthago Nova


And here are some Leaders:

Ahiram
Zakarbaal
Baalezoros (Belus)
Luli
Baalu
Hiram
Hamilcar
Hasdrubal
Hannibal

Your trait and colour choices are perfect.
Click to expand...


Hm Panormon, Motya and Carteia (Carthaia) were greek colonies in sicily.
I dont know Tharros, but it sounds greek as well.
Abdera? You mean the city in Macedonia?
 
Linguistically Phoenicians were semitic, i.e. their language was cognate to Hebrew, Arabic, Akkadian etc. Within the semitic group Phoenician and Hebrew languages are very closely related. So you cannot really say the Phoenicians derived from the sea peoples. It's possible they mixed with them, but I don't think there is any evidence for that.
 
Thanks for all the great stuff and suggestions! :goodjob:
Well, for what I know, Phoenicians r part of the semit root, the same for arabs, hebrews and others, so, they r not the same tribe, but they have the same root (ancestral). We could say something like Phoenicians r the Christians which we found in Lebanon and Siria today.
 
I think that the christian arabs there are remains of the byzantine empire. They are like the copts of egypt probably.

I guess that in the end the only christians left will be arabs :lol:
 
Xyth said:
And here are some Leaders:

Ahiram
Zakarbaal
Baalezoros (Belus)
Luli
Baalu
Hiram
Hamilcar
Hasdrubal
Hannibal

Your trait and colour choices are perfect.
Click to expand...

Xyth, I'll use your city list, I'll just remove the Cathargenean (and Greek) ones ;) About these leaders, what of them could fit for military ones?
 
varwnos said:
I think that the christian arabs there are remains of the byzantine empire. They are like the copts of egypt probably.
Click to expand...

No, Christian Arabs have nothing to do with the Byzantine empire. There was an important Arab kingdom in the north of Arabia in the early seventh century called the Ghassanids, who were for a time allied with the Byzantines against Persia, and they were Monophysite Christians. That is, they had been evangelised by missionaries who disagreed with the Council of Chalcedon and were therefore heretics from a Byzantine point of view. So in this respect they were like the Copts, who were also heretics from a Byzantine point of view (Byzantine-style Christians, that is Chalcedonians, in Egypt were called Melkites, meaning "the emperor's men").

Most Christian Arabs today are the opposite, that is, Nestorian. Unlike the Monophysites, there were virtually no Nestorians within the boundaries of the Byzantine empire. Their church flourished instead within the Persian empire and later under the Arabs, though it gradually declined. They were always the bitter enemies of the Byzantines because of the doctrinal differences, and this is why both the Persians and the Arabs encouraged them, on the principle that the enemy of my enemy is my friend. This is the same church that brought Christianity to India and to China, and today it is known as the Church of the East.
 
Aion said:
Linguistically Phoenicians were semitic, i.e. their language was cognate to Hebrew, Arabic, Akkadian etc. Within the semitic group Phoenician and Hebrew languages are very closely related. So you cannot really say the Phoenicians derived from the sea peoples. It's possible they mixed with them, but I don't think there is any evidence for that.
Click to expand...

It is not "ME" saying this. I am an amateur historian at best. I don't know enough about the region to even dispute your claims that a dead language with little if any records was Semitic or not. There are regions in France speaking French as well as anyone, but are genetically Germanic. I've a friend that is French/Belgian, but all he speaks are Germanic languages (German and English). Similarly, there are no doubt those that speak Semitic languages that are not semitic genetically. The language proves nothing, even if you are right; it is just an interesting bit of trivia.
I saw 2 shows on the history channel and 1 show on the discovery channel on the sea people and the Phoenicians. The first was "who were the sea people" or something similar. The second was something like "The Phoenicians: master sailors of the ancient age". The final one was a genetic detective "In pursuit of the Phoenicians", where a geneticist and a historian/archeologist working together to trace ancient people. For example, they determined for a fact that the Lebanese are the Phoenicians, and that the Phonecians were also the founders of Carthage. Even though the two groups of people no longer look the same (similar but not the same), speak different languages and have completely different cultures.
The show on the sea peoples was (like the other two) a full length show with experts in the field explaining various things, culture, assimilation, trade routes, and so on. They are (for the most part) professors, along with the occasional well published historian.

--edit--
Also, I think Civs Army can make the Phonecians without deciding if they are sea people, semitic, etc.
 
You're completely right, linguistic relations aren't identical with genetic ones. I've said that before, but take a Swede, a Finn and a Persian: The Swede and the Persian are linguistically cognate (both speak an Indo-European language), the Finn is not. But of course the Swede and the Finn have more in common than the Swede and the Persian (or the Finn and a Hungarian, vice versa).
Yet linguistic relations are the common way to define ethnics. I don't know much about genetic biology, but I imagine it should be quite difficult to find out the specific genetic traits of a nation. And judging on behalf of physical appearance is also problematic. This method has been used too much of racist (think of the Nazis for instance).

About the Phoenicians/Sea People issue, it's completely possible that they are related. The problem is just that the Sea Peoples are so mysterious. If we don't really know who the Sea Peoples were, it's also hard to judge if the Phoenicians and the Sea People were cognate.
 
To form the genetic "finger print", they used genes extracted from known phonecian dead, mainly a king and some of his subjects and decendents. Then a bunch of blood from some lebanese men. They then used some fancy software and alot of computer processessing able to test/prove the lineage. Then the same in Morocco ( Carthage).
It sounds dull as anything, but it was well presented and expertly produced. Also, I'd already seen the other two shows, and this had an interesting title in the same vein.
I was not that interested in the Phoencians intially, it was the first story about the mysterous sea people that drug me in. There was little doubt that the Phonecians were decentdents of the sea people, along with possibly the minoans (who I thought were purely greek). The genetics show did not touch on the sea people, and did not try to establish a link between the Minoans and the Phoencians having some common roots. I tend to thing that they were different people. The seem to have Phoencians arisen out of the Sea people (who came from parts unknown). I think the Minoans are an offshoot of the Greeks. There was no doubt some flux from on place to another along the mediterranian... but I think that's all it was. The problem with tracing some cultures/nations is that not all were equally adapt at record keeping. And, not all were interested in maintaining their culture or language as a seperate from their neighbors. For example, the "Vikings" settled all over the UK and all along the coasts of the baltic and atlantic. But if there was a strong local culture and language, the vikings would in fairly short order blend in. I saw an interesting thing about the Norwegians in Ireland. One of the things they recovered was this soup ladle. The front of it was inscribe with Norse ruins, the back with Gaelic. The Normans didn't speak Norse when they invaded in 1066 either. When the Anglo-Saxons "drove out" the vikings, they did not actually drive most of them out. Most of them switched sides and drove out those vikings they could not get along with. They stay and soon were not identifiable as a seperate people, just as really large englishmen. It was the same every where the Vikings settled. Unless it was fairly isolated (Iceland, and some of the smaller islands in the UK) they fairly quickly were just a taller blonder local.
So it may have been with the Sea People. They left so few traces behind. Experts think they became the Phonecians, who in turn did not leave that much behind.
 
Finnstar said:
Except of the Finn is a swedish-speaking Finn. :p
Click to expand...
I lived in Helsinki for 4 years and barely learned any Finish. Still got along quite well, had alot of friends that sometimes talked funny and sometimes talked so I could understand them. (I spoke Norwegian & swedish).
 
varwnos said:
Hm Panormon, Motya and Carteia (Carthaia) were greek colonies in sicily.
I dont know Tharros, but it sounds greek as well.
Abdera? You mean the city in Macedonia?
Click to expand...

According to my sources (Atlas of World Archaeology, Times Ancient Civilizations, Blackwell's History of the Near East, The First Merchant Venturers, Oxford History of the Classical World, and others) these cities were originally Phoenician colonies on Sicily but were later taken over by the Greeks.

The names are indeed Greek, and in fact almost all Phoenician colonies in my city list have Greek or Latin names because it's from these civilizations that we have most of our information about the Phoenicians (which of course is a Greek name in itself). So these cities do need to be in the citylist, though of course they could fit in the Greek city list as well.

There was a Phoenician colony known as Abdera on the coast of Spain.
 
I recommend reading the wikipedia entry on the Phoenicians, as it has a good summary (IMO) of the facts that I got from my sources (listed above).

The Phoenicians are Canaanites, linguistically and culturally at least, though probably one subset of them. There are theories that the Hebrew were also a subset of the Canaanites, though is obviously controversial, but it does seem to be what the archaeological record shows, and of course is completely at odds with the Bible. I recommend reading Isserlins "The Israelites" for more on this.

Sorry, I wasn't trying to say that the Hebrew were Phoenicians, what I meant was that that they were possibly Canaanites and so were the Phoenicians. I didn't write this very well.

As for the Sea People they probably did influence or merge with the Phoenicians/Canaanites, but to say they are the Phoenicians is a bit tricky as most of the important Phoenician cities like Byblos, Sidon, and Tyre were around long before the Sea People arrived (as were the Canaanites in general) and the archaeological record shows a continuation of linguistic and material culture from the Bronze to the Iron Age.

The Phoenicians certainly came into their own in the Iron Age, and Herodotus and scholars since have tried to state that their must have been external influence or migration to create the Phoenicians as such, and the Sea People are obvious candidates. Unfortunately we know sod all about the Sea People, ethnically, linguistically or culturally.

My personal opinion is that because of the fall of Minoan civilization there was a gap in domination of the seas, and the Phoenicians rose up and filled it.

There's even a theory that because of chronological assumptions being made and upheld we've got the dates all wrong and the so-called invasion of the Sea Peoples was actually a representation of the Persian conquest of the region. Not sure I buy this myself, but it's a damn good read and raises some important points (sorry, can't remember name of book atm)

So in summary, ethnically we can't say much about the Phoenicians at all(though those programs you saw seem to say more has been discovered which is exciting). Linguistically and culturally the Phoenician are Canaanites but were possibly influenced/merged with some of the Sea Peoples.

I don't claim to be an expert on all this (though I have a degree in Classical and Near Eastern Archaeology) but this is the impression that my studies have given me. I may be wrong and my sources (some mentioned above) may be wrong, but that's the exciting thing about archaeology.

Sorry for hijacking your thread CivArmy. Your LH looks really good and I hope to use it when it is finished.
 
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