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Future GOTM Map Suggestions

Discussion in 'Civ2 - Game of the Month' started by LordValuna, Jan 16, 2003.

  1. starlifter

    starlifter Chieftain

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    Good to see you again! :)

    Wow, you're at KTH (from the other thread you wrote)!? That's one of the most prestigious schools in Sweden, for those who don't know: The Royal Institute of Technology. Are you at KTH main campus or Kista? I've visited both, and have friends that graduated from the engineering department (Civil, a few years ago) and computer science department. KTH is known and well-respected for its undergraduate programmers' ability to compete in international programming contests, and finish at or near the top. Will you continue & do a Masters (which in the Sweden university system is a sort of smooth continuation from 'bachelors' study)?

    Yes, I know what you are getting at with the 2 examples you cite... its the propogation, in a properly managed empire.

    In 'theory' for comparison games in Civ 2, they should be; I've now done some catch-up reading, and evidently some very good players like Solo articulate that for similar reasons (e.g., not popping a hut).

    However, the GOTM is really just a vehicle to have fun playing Civ 2, and talking about it, and huts are part of Civ 2. Since the GOTM is not a hardline comparison game (e.g., submit a full game log and more saves), and is (in my view) a means of encourageing newer players, generating new ideas, and learning new playstyles... well, I think its good to have occasional hutless games, or maybe modified hut games as you, Slow Thinker, and Peaster have suggested in various ways.

    You learn a lot when forced to confront new ideas outside your normal paradigm. My play changed a lot after playing GOTMs in 2001. For instance, I never used to value Hanging Gardens much. Or consider rapid early expansion (going instead for the "long" view of how the civ should look in 5,000 years when city planning, for example). And certain players like Shadowdale & the 'strategy' he employed were a catalyst for developing ways that were actually repeatable, describeable, and playable by average players in a real game. And the constant evolving of even the GOTM rules required even further refinement (e.g., no rehoming of trade that is "new" to me in GOTM 68, since I have not played since #18).

    So although I guess in a way I'd tend to favor all Diety+, no huts, game saves every 5 turns, etc... well, then it would be an 'elite' GOTM in the sense it would by its very constraints exclude (or scare away) most of the vast majority of potential Civ 2 GOTM players. So hopefully every once in a while, a GOTM can be hutless, be very rectangular, government limited, revealed map (& maybe even just state the starting coordinates of the AI units to save time clicking/irrigation hunting)... whatever variation.

    Samson & Solo are probably the 2 best thinkers in Civ 2. About Samson's hut outcomes, I must caution that after reading the link & what he wrote, it is a fine effort, but not correct in details. I do not have the time to properly think it all out & quantify it in print right now, but we can probably use his excellent effort as a starting point in a Hut thread for that purpose. I suspect his results are correct, given his test environment/setup, but that there are more triggers that did not become apparant due to his methodology (e.g., setup & observations & limitations). You can reproduce -- and I have reproduced -- hut cities on almost all terrain types, for instance (using Civ 2 MGE; I have not tried it in 2.42, which he uses). And on and on. But his work does give someone with no clue about huts, an overall feel for how it works. And maybe even the complete mechanism for 2.42, I don't know... but its not complete for 5.4.0f. Regarding timings of events, it "feels" pretty accurate for 5.4.0f, though. :) :crazyeye:

    So a warm welcome back, Chofritz! We expect to see you in some GOTMs and doing some posting as your classes allow. :cool: :goodjob:
     
  2. Chofritz

    Chofritz Former Mr. Reloader

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    Thanks for the welcomes!

    I'm at the main campus. I'm not sure, but I think the right word for what I'll become when I'm done is a "Master of Engineering". It's a bit tricky because in Swedish it's called "civilingenjör" that directly translated into English would be "civil engineer", but that's something completely different. After my masters is done I want to study for one's doctor's degree (not sure if that is the right words, I just looked it up in a dictionary and copy pasted :D ).

    Actually to be able to make good comparison from just one game it would have to be a game with no randomness at all, and when we reach that point we're not playing civ 2 anymore. Just imagine it, the AI always acting in the same way in every ones games, predestined hut outcomes, chess like combat etc. The huts are actually quite fun but I think their impact on the early game is too great.

    Diety+ no huts sounds good to me :D! However, I actually like playing at lower levels too. The strategy is really different. In low difficulty games I tend to go for republic much earlier because of the extra happy citizens. I guess the variation is what makes GOTM fun.

    Thanks for the links LordValuna I'll look into that later. I have a 3 week full-time course in electro- and magnetostatics that I must force into my head before Wednesday, haven't touched it yet so I guess I'm in trouble :crazyeye:!

    Off topic: I haven't written a full sentance of english in a few years so I'm a bit rusty. I hope that you can make out what I'm trying to say. You shouldn't read what I wrote, read what I meant to write instead :D.

    /Chofritz
     
  3. starlifter

    starlifter Chieftain

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    That's why it would probably not make an interesting GOTM (to remove all variation totally, for game after game). But... when the variation is removed, what is left (at least in terms of thesis) is probably a difference in gamestyle, strategy, etc. But then like you said, as it becomes more sterile, it becomes further removed from "real" Civ 2. :science: :religion: :traderoute: :commerce: :strength: :)

    A player who does say Prince level regularly has some advantages in terms of game experience ("feel") for what works at that level.

    :agree: :goodjob:
     
  4. LordValuna

    LordValuna High Lord

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    Hamilton Ontario Canada
    My prefererence is for a revealed map like GotM 68 (back clicking gives me a headache) perhaps have it on special occassions, replaying a known map

    I usually play with accelerated startup, there have bean a couple of GotM where the early moves have been done by a person, including popping a hut. This is a good comprimise as it avoids the AI sillyness in the accelerated startup.

    Reloading to get best outcomes. Definitely against that. Befire I visited this site any bad outcome would be reloaded, turns would take forever. Iwould hate t take a step backwards.

    (edit)
    Also I would like one try at Chieftain level. I would like see how the games goes if the size 1 trick is widely available the entire game. I realize most people prefer to keep the game difficulty level up, but I shot would be ok
     
  5. Ali Ardavan

    Ali Ardavan Mathematician Moderator Civ2 GOTM Staff

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    There are 5 sources of randomness in Civ2 once a game is set up:

    1. Huts
    2. Battle outcomes
    3. Barbarians
    4. Restarts after a civ is vanquished
    5. Exploration (If I head west I may run into completey different things than if I head east)

    Eliminating huts eliminates the biggest factor but the others are still there. I have designed a game which eliminates all but one of the above and reduces the remaining one's importance significantly. I would love to see us play this as a GOTM. My description of the game follows.

    Global warming has taken place on a massive scale. All the polar ice caps, both north and south, are gone. Nations leaving on low land are wiped out. All human technology and infrastructure has been lost in the survival period. Now 7 tribes have emerged on what little dry land remians and things are as they were in 4000BC.

    Map size is 32x32. There are no north or south poles (the only way I know of to enforce this is to make the world flat, so it is flat). There are only 7 land tiles. All are grassland with access to 2 whales and 2 fish. Lands are far enough apart not to be reachable by Triremes in one turn.

    There are 7 civs. Human player is Egyptian. From each color group the chosen civilization is the one whose characteristic better matches aggressive, perfectionist, militaristic. These are Russian, Japanese, German, Persian, Carthaginian, and Mongol.

    Barbarian setting is huts only which basically means they are absent since there are no huts (not that this makes much of a difference in this set up).

    Due to the geography there will not be any restarts regardless of the restart setting.

    This game requires much thought but less actual gameplay than any typical game. It is ideal for a shorter period of 3 weeks.

    This game is the best case of eliminating sources of chance in Civ2 that I know about. The random effects of huts, barbarians, exploration, and restarts are totally eliminated. The random effect of battle outcomes is present but it can only happen so late in the game it is all but irrelevant.
     
  6. LordValuna

    LordValuna High Lord

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    found the Apolyton thread

    http://apolyton.net/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=69873
     
  7. Old n Slow

    Old n Slow Chieftain

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    We could play this game twice -- once as a One city challenge, and again as a conquest.

    I think that a One City Conquest (Warlord level, no huts for simplicity) would also work.

    Actually for purists, I have yet to see a "No city" conquest. What would happen if the conquerer would raze all the cities that he came across, never founding, simply using the units from huts? (Purchased units would not an option, since there would be no dips to use. Unless(!) some sort of scenario were to be put in place... Hmmmm start with a spy (but no settler) kill everything that moves.)
     
  8. Ali Ardavan

    Ali Ardavan Mathematician Moderator Civ2 GOTM Staff

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    I would be for that.

    However, the beauty of this set up is that even an OCC play would get you a competetive GOTM score since the maximum number of cities anyone could ever have is seven.
     
  9. TimTheEnchanter

    TimTheEnchanter I...am...an Enchanter!

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    Starting with a spy would be tough without also putting a few coins in the bank. Without some starting cash, you could theoretically poison cities down to 1, but could not raze/capture them without units that were either bribed with hut-money or from huts themselves
     
  10. ElephantU

    ElephantU Chieftain

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    You cannot start without at least one settler anyway...
     
  11. Fernão de Magalhães

    Fernão de Magalhães Chieftain

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    Why not a game where we have 1 founded city surrounded by AI cities very closer to our city. Attention: we can not destroy any AI city in continent!
    (I have difficult with english language it's because I read but I don't write in the forum)
     
  12. Ali Ardavan

    Ali Ardavan Mathematician Moderator Civ2 GOTM Staff

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    Interesting idea. I am for it.

    I have played 2 OCC games on earth, one as English with the Celts persent and the other as Celts with the English present. In both cases I resolved not to destroy the other side; not that it would have been easy due to the limitations of OCC. They were both very challenging and memorable games. The first of the two I lost; the second one (learning from the mistakes of the first) was won.
     
  13. URUWASHI

    URUWASHI Chieftain

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    I propose a game , thats stars in an Island ( Hawaii ??) , just a one tile Island ....with no Palace , no specials available within city radio.
    Huts are OK..and lets do it on Deity Level.
    Then the capital city has to be a City allready on hands of the AI...( Tokio ...Sydney ...etc ), you the city has to be taken ....NOT razed and rebuilt ...will require 2 extra saves ...the turn before we attack the city..and the turns beyond , until the City is taken.
    By the way Hut Locations are easy to be calculated....
    I did my own research ...because I could not find Hutfinder...and figuered how the Huts are created by the AI.
     
  14. Fernão de Magalhães

    Fernão de Magalhães Chieftain

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    I forgoted to say that:

    AI cities (1 for every civ) most have 1 phalanx in side to prevent to be destroyed early by other civs.
     
  15. KnightTemp

    KnightTemp Chieftain

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    and to give some more interest, it could be an "only by conquest" GOTM.
    [/QUOTE]

    Yes, I like the idea of that!!
     
  16. Ali Ardavan

    Ali Ardavan Mathematician Moderator Civ2 GOTM Staff

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    We start on a small land made entirely out of glaciers attached to the North Pole. There is no land within trirme reach from us or the North Pole. Our rivals get plenty of fertile land. To make this doable there will be some glacier and ocean specials nearby if not at the starting location.

    I have had this idea for a while and meant to create a map to go along with it, but have not had a chance to.

    We can even extend the idea to other terrain types, if there is interest: Tarzan king of the Jungle for example which starts on a small remote island made up entirely of jungle tiles.
     
  17. Ali Ardavan

    Ali Ardavan Mathematician Moderator Civ2 GOTM Staff

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    This is a custom map that I created years ago. I mentioned it in another thread and was asked to share it.

    This is a large very young world (meaning that terrain types come in big clusters). Haftaab means 7 rivers. These are not your ordinary rivers. They are long, very long. Every civilization starts near one. The rapid movement this offers right at the begining makes for some interesting plays.

    All civilization starting places are set.
     

    Attached Files:

  18. KnightTemp

    KnightTemp Chieftain

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    Hi, Ali - this looks interesting, but I couldn't load the file into my mapeditor. The file extensions are normally 'mp' but I notice yours is 'map' - do I need a different program?

    Many thanks.
     
  19. Ali Ardavan

    Ali Ardavan Mathematician Moderator Civ2 GOTM Staff

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    It was created in the regular map editor that came with the game. Change the extension and it should work.
    I am on a Mac (no name extensions). I added the .map at the last moment before upload since it looked like the best choice among the ones possible.
     
  20. KnightTemp

    KnightTemp Chieftain

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    Yup, that did it - thanks!
     

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