[G&K] OCC Cultural question

[joshua43214]

I stopped playing Civ5 right when G&K came out. Recently I downloaded the expansion and I have become obsessed with OCC cultural victory on immortal.

Is any one doing this? I would be interested in general strategies people use, i.e. tech path, civs etc.

Recently I have been trying with the Aztecs for the floating gardens. Getting a good hill start with lots of jungle and a river is common.

I tech archery (push to three pop and hammer focus on ToA), beeline to mathematics and hard build the hanging gardens, then build the floating gardens. I usually get two or three archers out between the ToA and the HG.

I then take mining to chop the HG and then tech writing (buy and library), beeline to drama and poetry for the free culture building. Sometimes I have to grab lux tech before drama and poetry finishes. After that I beeline archeology and radio as best I can, then head for plastics.

Its a fairly risky opener because construction gets delayed for a long while, but by turn 100 I get pop 15-20 with growth every 5 or so turns and the NC will be up. I then beeline for civil service, education, acoustics->architecture, then up to archeology. I put my spy in a civ that is far away and warlike to steal the military techs so I can grab machinery faster if danger approaches.

Policy wise I finish tradition (free aquaducts since I do construction late), finish piety, finish freedom, then whatever, usually honor and commerce/patronage.

The problem is that I lose very time lol.
Last night I lost to Russia at T301 when I would have won on T317. more normally I lose around T350 when I still have 10 or so turns to go. Depending on how many times I get DoW'd, I can easily cross 45-50 pop by the end of the game with ~50 happiness to keep golden ages running.

It feels like my strat is close to being on target, but is missing the mark. I don't usually get enough wonders and wonders seem to be the difference between 400cpt and 600cpt.

any feedback would be well appreciated.

 

[Resipsa]

The Aztecs are always fun to play with; CV games in GnK were my favorite and i was always tempted to try an honor opening with Aztecs/Immortal/CV. I got it to work on Emperor with Raging Barbs which was fun, Immortal and Deity not so much anyway back on point;

My initial thoughts are that by trying to hit both ToA and HG you are delaying you tech and culture too much in the beginning. I was having problems seeing how you'd go from Piety straight into Freedom if you are that far out of the Science line. The answer to that is that you are neglecting your amphitheater by several turns.

I also think the most important wonder to grab is one that you aren't gunning for; the Oracle. The Oracle cuts off your turns to victory by your most expensive social policy usually 12 or 13 turns.

I think you should get you Lux Tech and beeline NC which for the Aztecs is kind of problematic because its most likely covered in Jungle. (At least you can use Sacred Paths to boost early game culture!) Prioritize Science at that point and conveniently your Culture Buildings in the same Line.

For Wonders I think you should try and get; Stonehenge (The GE will pop around the time SC is available), [I like Tithe, Cathedrals/Hermitage Bonus/Intenerent Preachers] for the beliefs. Oracle, SC, and the Louve. The Leaning Tower(GE+Porcelain Tower) Combo is nice but not necessary
For Social Policies; Finish Tradition, Piety, and either 2 points in Patronage for the higher settling point for City states or 1 point in Commerce for the 25% gold in Capital depending on how far off from the industrial age. Freedom, Finish Patronage and Finish Commerce.

Others will tell you that Liberty is better than Commerce because you can bust a GE at the end to help you with the Utopia Project but I find that 25% gold for basically 50% of the game is better. You should aim to finish your policies around t280 and finish Utopia sometime around t290-t300. Every turn past 300 you can lose. Heck I lost to a Russian Space race on t268 Immortal once.

EDIT: You should always be working your Culture Specialist, work your science specialist some to but don't pop a GS meaning you'll nee to watch it. I usually plant my GA until Louve and then maybe 1 or none of those depending on how much juice I need for the perpetual Golden Age Spam the I start sometime near the end of the freedom policy tree.

 

[glory7]

I stopped playing Civ5 right when G&K came out. Recently I downloaded the expansion and I have become obsessed with OCC cultural victory on immortal.

Is any one doing this? I would be interested in general strategies people use, i.e. tech path, civs etc.

Recently I have been trying with the Aztecs for the floating gardens. Getting a good hill start with lots of jungle and a river is common.

I tech archery (push to three pop and hammer focus on ToA), beeline to mathematics and hard build the hanging gardens, then build the floating gardens. I usually get two or three archers out between the ToA and the HG.

I then take mining to chop the HG and then tech writing (buy and library), beeline to drama and poetry for the free culture building. Sometimes I have to grab lux tech before drama and poetry finishes. After that I beeline archeology and radio as best I can, then head for plastics.

Its a fairly risky opener because construction gets delayed for a long while, but by turn 100 I get pop 15-20 with growth every 5 or so turns and the NC will be up. I then beeline for civil service, education, acoustics->architecture, then up to archeology. I put my spy in a civ that is far away and warlike to steal the military techs so I can grab machinery faster if danger approaches.

Policy wise I finish tradition (free aquaducts since I do construction late), finish piety, finish freedom, then whatever, usually honor and commerce/patronage.

The problem is that I lose very time lol.
Last night I lost to Russia at T301 when I would have won on T317. more normally I lose around T350 when I still have 10 or so turns to go. Depending on how many times I get DoW'd, I can easily cross 45-50 pop by the end of the game with ~50 happiness to keep golden ages running.

It feels like my strat is close to being on target, but is missing the mark. I don't usually get enough wonders and wonders seem to be the difference between 400cpt and 600cpt.

any feedback would be well appreciated.

Edit: never mind - didn't know that you asked about GnK.

 

[Deau]

For GnK your best bet is Korea. Reroll until desert start with many hills and a mountain. Go pottery -> archery->writing->commerce.

BO is scout, monument (or scout scout if you pop a ruin), ToA, HG, Petra.

From there, resume by belining science techs in waves like you would do for science whilst wonder spamming like you played on settler.

The korea UA suits culture extremely well because it turns non science specialists into almost science specialists so you can reasonably shift specialists around to suit your needs better.

Use DF to guarantee 2-3 extra GSs, 3-4 extra GAs to plant (or likely the last one to pop a golden age as by then 20% bonus accounts for more than 1 planted GA).

If you randomly pop a GE from petra+ToA before you can get enough GS points, use it to rush Alhambra. For some reason, it's the hardest one to snag since you shoot for education first and it compounds very well esp. for OCC.

You can generally go trad 2-3, liberty 2 (get that additional free worker early, you will grow like crazy from the compound effect of the 3 wonders and you wish to have tiles improved before city growth to minmax), finish trad for free aqueducs. Spam pledge to protect and then go 3 pts into patronage. The last 2 points of the tree will be probably the last 2 SPs you buy in the game. Open piety slowly until you get to industrial era at which point you go all-out freedom until completion. With so many settled GP, the freedom finisher bonus is outstanding.

As for your religion from DF, go pilgrimage, divine inspiration, religious community or hermitage, religious texts or itinerant preachers. Spread the hell out. DI+pilgrimage+DF can reasonably get you 20k faith in the game for purchased GAs. Try to spread only with missionaries unless you need to leap across a civ to the other end of the map as this means you can possibly purchase cheap great prophets to settle in the late game when the next GA costs like 6k or 9k faith and buying 4 great prophets is more beneficial from piety finisher.

I don't think Aztec is suitable or rather, jungle start is not suitable to OCC. Too slow opener, typically too little production throughout the game. I'd settle for a civ with some Salt/mining lux start with many riverside wheat bias over any civ with a jungle bias. Paccacuti is also a great pic. Likely the best all around although slower expected turn-to-victory than korea. Those 5f2h tiles early in the game are outstanding not to fall behind on infrastructure/growth whilst not missing CV essential wonders.

 

[dontheconqueror]

Ahhh, happy to know I'm not alone with this obsession

Wonders -
I was also doing ToA+HG but this delays tech too much. Now I have been doing a ToA+either Stonehenge or Great Pyramid start. I tend towards the former since it leads to Philosophy and the NC, but it depends on the lux resources around. The two wonders will give you enough GE points in time for Alhambra. I've delayed Education for this, but it's worth it.

Other required wonders have already been noted: Oracle after NC; Petra if available; SC; the Louvre; Cristo. Pisa-PT is nice-to-have. Beyond ToA and Alhambra, all these wonders are gettable via hard build.

Techs -
I'll tech Pottery after Archery and buy a Shrine via loans with other civs. I'd like get Fertility Rites or, if desert, DF of course. My first worker is kidnapped from a nearby CS. I probably should buy the worker, work on a lux, sell, then buy the shrine. The next techs depend on lux and/or DoWs, but generally it's a beeline towards Chivalry with a slight detour to get NC. Education, then Oxford into Acoustics.

Beyond that it's the usual suspects: clear the bottom of the tree as prereqs for Architecture, Archaeology, then Electricity, Radio, Plastics.

Religion -
Beyond getting Faith early and getting enhanced religion, I have a big goose egg here. All GPs are planted and Faith hoarded for GAs in the end game. I will have to bone up here (good grief, 20k Faith...)

Civs -
I play with random Civs, but the craziest I've gone is with Egypt - perfect storm of desert start, defense-friendly terrain, all major wonders built. Finished at 301, but should have been earlier if not for my unnecessary warmongering.

End game -
Usual finish is 310-320. 500 cpt more or less, never really tracked bpt. Next step for me would be religion (again - wow, 20k faith...) - perhaps this will get me to consistent sub-300.

 

[joshua43214]

For GnK your best bet is Korea. Reroll until desert start with many hills and a mountain. Go pottery -> archery->writing->commerce.

BO is scout, monument (or scout scout if you pop a ruin), ToA, HG, Petra.

From there, resume by belining science techs in waves like you would do for science whilst wonder spamming like you played on settler.

The korea UA suits culture extremely well because it turns non science specialists into almost science specialists so you can reasonably shift specialists around to suit your needs better.

Use DF to guarantee 2-3 extra GSs, 3-4 extra GAs to plant (or likely the last one to pop a golden age as by then 20% bonus accounts for more than 1 planted GA).

If you randomly pop a GE from petra+ToA before you can get enough GS points, use it to rush Alhambra. For some reason, it's the hardest one to snag since you shoot for education first and it compounds very well esp. for OCC.

You can generally go trad 2-3, liberty 2 (get that additional free worker early, you will grow like crazy from the compound effect of the 3 wonders and you wish to have tiles improved before city growth to minmax), finish trad for free aqueducs. Spam pledge to protect and then go 3 pts into patronage. The last 2 points of the tree will be probably the last 2 SPs you buy in the game. Open piety slowly until you get to industrial era at which point you go all-out freedom until completion. With so many settled GP, the freedom finisher bonus is outstanding.

As for your religion from DF, go pilgrimage, divine inspiration, religious community or hermitage, religious texts or itinerant preachers. Spread the hell out. DI+pilgrimage+DF can reasonably get you 20k faith in the game for purchased GAs. Try to spread only with missionaries unless you need to leap across a civ to the other end of the map as this means you can possibly purchase cheap great prophets to settle in the late game when the next GA costs like 6k or 9k faith and buying 4 great prophets is more beneficial from piety finisher.

I don't think Aztec is suitable or rather, jungle start is not suitable to OCC. Too slow opener, typically too little production throughout the game. I'd settle for a civ with some Salt/mining lux start with many riverside wheat bias over any civ with a jungle bias. Paccacuti is also a great pic. Likely the best all around although slower expected turn-to-victory than korea. Those 5f2h tiles early in the game are outstanding not to fall behind on infrastructure/growth whilst not missing CV essential wonders.

Just tried this, it has merits I think. I hate spreading missionaries though, it gets tiresome fast.
Map was not perfect, bit over half desert and no mountain.
spammed missionaries until freedom, then used the faith for GA's. Was running 135+ faith for the greater part of the game. Planted 12 GA's, 1 GS, 1 GP. Was running 575 cpt, and 356 bpt at T292 when Washington won the science victory.

I still had 5 policies to go, but they where going very fast.

Was the luck of the map I think. my religious texts vs. Arabia's itinerant preachers meant I had to spam missionaries for too long to get a solid foothold. Also Washington managed to run-away in spite of being surrounded by Napoleon, Russia, and Arabia. I never got DoW'd, and didn't even have to get the others to fight.

I am lukewarm on liberty so early. I normally get two workers going by T30 by buying and stealing, the liberty worker comes at the same time. I also still end up with full tradition and piety +2 policies before industrialization. This might have been because my third lux was whales and I moved inland so I was poor most of the game. I would love to go straight from piety into freedom if its possible.
The other thing about taking liberty early is that it means taking honor later. I find that honor is excellent in OCC because it seems to slow DoW's down. Not getting half your empire pillaged is a big deal.

I should also note that I didn't get the NC up any sooner than in my other games, so science still lagged for a while.

Will try it again with some changes and see how it goes.

 

[_megafone_]

You don't need that much pop going cultural in GnK; what you need is a lot of Wonders. Forget ToA and HG; shoot for the science techs early (Pottery > Writing > Philosophy, lux techs, then beeline Education), get the Oracle early, and then beeline all the obvious cultural Wonders.

At BnW you need a lot of pop to work all your Specialists (you need a whopping 9 specialists working by the time you hit Industrial and you also need to keep growing even with all of those). That isn't an issue on GnK.

 

[Deau]

You don't need that much pop going cultural in GnK; what you need is a lot of Wonders. Forget ToA and HG; shoot for the science techs early (Pottery > Writing > Philosophy, lux techs, then beeline Education), get the Oracle early, and then beeline all the obvious cultural Wonders.

At BnW you need a lot of pop to work all your Specialists (you need a whopping 9 specialists working by the time you hit Industrial and you also need to keep growing even with all of those). That isn't an issue on GnK.

I'm sorry but I can't agree with this. Esp not as OCC. If anything, BnW OCC is far more forgiving on tech pace since you can take rationalism even for culture and requires just as many wonders as it did in GnK, just not necessarily all the same wonders. In GnK however, you need to push science through pop (and the godlike korea UA) if you ever want to get to the last few CV important techs to truly compound your culture.

@OP, 12 GA planted and 1 GS planted, to me, reads like you've done 2 mistakes.

1. Not work all GS slots ASAP. You are playing OCC, even if you had the gold to sustain every single CS on the map and tech through scholasticism, settling 2-4 GSs is quite substantial to how early you get broadcast towers and the -10% SP cost wonder. Earlier modern era also means earlier point in time where you get the most out of culture CSs.

2. You planted too many GAs and did not spend your last 100 (arbitrary number) turns in constant GAs. There is a breaking point (that is hard to calculate) where golden ages become better than settled GAs, enough that you should ensure you will get another artist ready before the end of your current golden age before planting a newly poped GA.

It happens slightly later in OCC than in 3-4 or more cities typical culture games but you see the point.

 

[_megafone_]

I'm sorry but I can't agree with this. Esp not as OCC. If anything, BnW OCC is far more forgiving on tech pace since you can take rationalism even for culture and requires just as many wonders as it did in GnK, just not necessarily all the same wonders. In GnK however, you need to push science through pop (and the godlike korea UA) if you ever want to get to the last few CV important techs to truly compound your culture.

@OP, 12 GA planted and 1 GS planted, to me, reads like you've done 2 mistakes.

1. Not work all GS slots ASAP. You are playing OCC, even if you had the gold to sustain every single CS on the map and tech through scholasticism, settling 2-4 GSs is quite substantial to how early you get broadcast towers and the -10% SP cost wonder. Earlier modern era also means earlier point in time where you get the most out of culture CSs.

2. You planted too many GAs and did not spend your last 100 (arbitrary number) turns in constant GAs. There is a breaking point (that is hard to calculate) where golden ages become better than settled GAs, enough that you should ensure you will get another artist ready before the end of your current golden age before planting a newly poped GA.

It happens slightly later in OCC than in 3-4 or more cities typical culture games but you see the point.

I overstated it a little bit. You do need to grow, obviously (it's OCC after all), but not so much that you need to build the food Wonders in detriment of getting infrastructure up early. Maybe ToA is fine since you need Archery anyway for defense, but going all the way to Mathematics before getting NC up seems like a huge waste.

 

[joshua43214]

Managed a T312 win with Ethiopia. I did how ever gimp my way using policy saving...

Thank you both Deau and _megaphone_ for the suggestions, they have been a great help.

I was able to enhance when there was only one other pantheon, so ended up with nearly 200 faith a turn. Population was a serious issue because I was not able to work both specialists and great tiles.

I'm feeling convinced the critical phase is the mid-game. I need to rocket into industrial before piety is finished if possible.

I am going to kick it around a bit more than post a final strat for others who may be interested.