G-Major 23

[billybgame]

Which way has everyone been going on obtaining a religion themselves?

I may try another OCC, as even gave up on the nifty map I had, as my possible bottleneck and 8 cities possibility, evaporated, with the AI's advantage, and early land grabbing. So, the OCC would minimize this disadvantage, at the least.

Thanks for the tips.

Edit:

In my first attempts, I didn't bother with religion, so I was wondering. Mainly Liz stood little chance, without having Mysticism to start. But, then, I still had no religion, quite a ways in. Thus, the missing happiness for my city. Also, the possible positives from other civs and missionaries to promote your religion.

Also, what about building Stonehenge, for quick growth? Although, I do know the GP could be a factor later on. It's just that there's such a land grab on Immortal, in my games on Pangea, that my future OCC growth was being stifled. Of course, I might turn a few cities, eventually, I know.

Edit 2: Well, that was an abject disaster. Didn't think I was ready for Immortal, and that proved quite true. Not only did I not win a diplo victory, but Gandhi ended up doing so, in the late 1600s.

I'm guessing I was too late at getting techs. Traded for some, for a bit, but even then, not many trades were garnering me much. Then, it was taking so long to get techs, I couldn't even trade anymore.

But, it was a combination of things also. My city site wasn't even that good, but I decided I'd still give it a whirl, with a few flood plains, cows, and wine. There was some rice, and gems withing my OCCs reach, too. But, knowing from previous attempts about the AI landgrab, that was overly optimistic. The AI built cities virtually right next door to my culture limit, and I was amazed that towards the end, my city radius was actually shrinking! I actually lost the rice, and two of my towns! That killed me, even though it was probably already too late. I was in late refined culture status at the time, too. Probably didn't help that it was Asoka and Ghandi on my left and right, encroaching on my territory. Does the AI get culture bonuses in higher difficulties, as well? I was quite stunned at that.

Guess that's it for me. I have too much to learn to be doing Immortal, at this point, never having won a game on Monarch.

 

[WilliamOfOrange]

No way, don't give up! I got my first Immortal win (other than Inca cheese) trying this gauntlet. You can do it too!

Make sure that you click the OCC option in the game setting before you play. From the sounds of your post, I couldn't tell if you did that or not. OCC is not something you do on a whim. Earlier in the thread, I was asking about it too, so let me pass on what I learned. Selecting OCC lets you build 5 National wonders in the city instead of two.

**Important, if you have clicked OCC, then cities founded too close to you will automatically be razed if your culture is too much for them. Mansa immediately went to war with me, but I held out.

Also try, permanent alliances. I got somebody to partner up with me permanently as I was researching up to MM. Then after we became allies, I had all their techs and they were giving me all their resources. Sweet!!

Now, I did not actually win at the gauntlet condition. The dynamics were going, so I cranked up the culture and won an immortal culture. Quite fun.

My second try, was amazing. most of the continent was one religion, except for two civs. I had both, plus my own and switched whenever they asked me. I was religious and thought switching would make them happy. Everyone was at war with Augustus at one time or another, mostly simultaneously. It was perfect, helped me get the PA much quicker. Hammurabi was never really my chioce, Mansa Musa was, but when I DWed on Augustus, I lost his Defensive Pact. Hammurabi was first place though and once we were allied, the votes were very close. I tried to manipulate the other civ to hate leading rival Peter and it almost worked out. Mansa Musa became our vassal and I all we needed was Liz to vote for us. Augustus, Peter's vassal was finished off and things were looking good, but Asoka wouldn't vote, so I thought we could take a few citeis for another vassal.

I didn't realize that he was a vassal of Liz. This was weird, because the war was after he renounced her protection. Anyway, in a matter of turns Asoka and Liz are allies and Mansa is their vassal!

Hammurabi got torn apart by Liz and Peter. He was pretty thin after conquering Rome. Well, actually I razed the city of Rome with some troops I sent over, but didn't do much else. He was too weak. I should have checked before pushing our, er that is, my agenda.

We were actually going for a Plan B, Space Colony victory, but after Babylon fell along with other wonder holding cities, our team lost a lot of happiness wonders and the WW was too much for me to build anything quickly. We would have won the Space Race had I not been too much of a warmonger. I did not finish the game.

I wanted to thank people for their advice. Immortal is not that intimidating anymore.

 

[FiveAces]

It's ok if 1 or 2 vote for the AI, but there is no guarantee. I've lost that way. One way to help is to bribe them into Free Religion, so no one shares a religion.

If you can't bribe them you can also make FR your first UN resolution. Enough AI usually vote yes for it to pass.

If you don't pick more than 1 AI with a favorite civic that you won't be in at the end, you can avoid the situation where AI are getting favorite civics bonus with each other but not with you.

 

[FiveAces]

@billybgame - If you want a religion, beeline alpha, trade for mysticism, buddism, and ph, then research CoL. If you have gold/gems you will found confu 99% of the time. You don't really need it though.

@WilliamOfOrange - Was there anything weird with the voting in your PA game? Like maybe a civ was +12 with you but they wouldn't vote for you? I've been trying for a while now to get a diplo win with a PA and I can never seem to get the voting to work out.

 

[bestje]

@FiveAces; I can explain that one, in a PA the AI has to vote for your team so they take an average of how much they like you and your partner and if they aren't friendly they won't vote for you to win

 

[FiveAces]

@FiveAces; I can explain that one, in a PA the AI has to vote for your team so they take an average of how much they like you and your partner and if they aren't friendly they won't vote for you to win

Thanks. That will make it challenging for the PA strategy, especially without teching to MilTrad. But not impossible though.

Mansa worked better for me, I improved by 200 years on my Liz MM date but couldn't get elected SecGen since everybody loved Fred too much. Only had 1 gem, corn, 4 floodplains, and settled on sugar. Popped ag which was helpful.

One thing I noticed as I was trying to overcome Fred's influence - if you make a DP with an AI, it doesn't seem to ever make the other AI's -1 towards them. I guess the human player is not a "rival" - or maybe the penalty is triggered by score comparisons? I notice when I make a DP, I don't get the penalty from all the other AI's, just some of them.

BTW - The DP's worked at first, allowing me to be elected SecGen (in the second election), then somehow backfired spectactularly as Fred won a diplo victory on the very next vote around 1350AD.

 

[WilliamOfOrange]

@billybgame - If you want a religion, beeline alpha, trade for mysticism, buddism, and ph, then research CoL. If you have gold/gems you will found confu 99% of the time. You don't really need it though.

@WilliamOfOrange - Was there anything weird with the voting in your PA game? Like maybe a civ was +12 with you but they wouldn't vote for you? I've been trying for a while now to get a diplo win with a PA and I can never seem to get the voting to work out.

I found not having a religion mean less diplo hits from civs with other religions, but with OCC you really want the production boost from OR. Building the SP might help, but that would be tough because you want the GL from Literature too. I have usually been one of the first to Aesthetics, I have found.

Well, I don't remember exactly, but Liz was pretty high with the +green numbers. She was friendly, and I was gifting techs left and right to get her to votes for us. She would not trade anything, not even her one tech for 4 of ours. In the end, I made her too advanced, and it cost, my ally, Hammurabi, everything except his dinky island city.

Maybe, the problem is not the AI's attitude towards you, but towards your ally. Remember in my game, Liz and Asoka formed an alliance too. That might also affects how they vote for elections. If Liz loves me, but Asoka is not as high a + green number, or has a higher threshold, then that lowers their average attitude level (the green number). I don't know if they average or not. The thing is, both Liz and Asoka were abstaining, before and after their PA. They didn't like Peter much either.

My final thought is that I noticed that PA members jump up in the score indicator on the right. They are listed together. Since Hammurabi was most powerful when we allied, I jumped up and was listed underneath him...my pitiful little score plus his. But when Asoka and Liz allied, they were listed highest...their individual scores between me and my ally, but their total highest. Even before they allied, they were abstaining. Does my PA with another AI intimidate other AI and therefore they won't vote for us even if they are pleased with us?

 

[FiveAces]

A good run, researching MM in the 1120's, but alas, no GE. Won in 1380-something. Too bad we can't be fin, spr, AND philo.

I'm still torn on whether Liz or Mansa is best for these settings. I'm getting a lot of mileage out of spiritual, but I only pop 3-4 great persons. With the delay in waiting for MC to be available for trade, Oxford is polluting the pool, then the NE and globe, but if I run a sci earlier and pop a 2nd GS before I can run an engineer, then I've got a much smaller chance at the GE... What to do, what to do

 

[WastinTime]

I always try to eliminate the random chance from my games. I don't want to gamble on a GE or waste time running an engineer, so I just chop/buy the UN. In vanilla, you can do that in 1 turn. In BTS it takes 2 turns.

 

[FiveAces]

I always try to eliminate the random chance from my games. I don't want to gamble on a GE or waste time running an engineer, so I just chop/buy the UN. In vanilla, you can do that in 1 turn. In BTS it takes 2 turns.

You're serious - it's possible to raise enough cash on immortal? I think the most I've accumulated so far is about 5k. I just assumed there would never be enough available since the AI aren't drowning in gold like they are on deity. Will definitely have to give this a shot. Thanks.

 

[WastinTime]

You're serious - it's possible to raise enough cash on immortal? I think the most I've accumulated so far is about 5k. I just assumed there would never be enough available since the AI aren't drowning in gold like they are on deity. Will definitely have to give this a shot. Thanks.

Yea, it's much easier on quick speed or even normal to rasie the cash. You need forest chops too.

 

[FiveAces]

Yea, it's much easier on quick speed or even normal to rasie the cash. You need forest chops too.

I checked your current #1 player log - looks like you chopped 4-6 forests and had the UN built 5 turns after MM. You also used 7 AI, so more cash for trade (better trades too). I can see how that and 5 turns high production/100% cash can generate enough.

The alternative is to research MC after CS for early forge+engr, but then you lose sci running him and still might not pop a GE. And the quicker uni/oxford in that case won't offset lost beakers to the engr and the GE vs. GS.

So I think your strategy of not using a GE is optimal.

Referring to an earlier post of yours, as Mansa with a CS slingshot (vanilla) I've still popped the GS for academy at 95% so I think spr beats philo if you want to make a run with a "good" leader.

 

[WastinTime]

I checked your current #1 player log - looks like you chopped 4-6 forests and had the UN built 5 turns after MM. You also used 7 AI, so more cash for trade (better trades too). I can see how that and 5 turns high production/100% cash can generate enough.

Yea, I think remember that game. I messed up the cash a bit. It should be just 2 turns if you work at it. I wasn't thinking Ragnar would be so good, so I rushed thru that game. Not sure how you estimated the # of forests I chopped. IIRC, I don't think you're too close.

My 2nd attempt (Wang 1210 AD) built the UN in the minimum 2 turns (1 for chopping, 1 for buying).

My first try (Hannibal 1190 AD) used a GE, so it was only 1 turn.

So Ragnar's game could have been ~1050. I'm thinking sub 1000 for my last try. And I think we agree that would be Mansa.

Regarding the 7 AI. True, it's good for tech/cash trades, but it also slows them down (crowded). It also makes your UN opponent and any of his friends smaller. 8 AI might slow them more and help you get Physics from Liberalism easier. I really messed up Wang's game and took Printing Press Wang's UB should have made him the best of those 3 leaders. I think all my maps were equally good.

 

[FiveAces]

I guessed 2 workers finishing pre-chops, moving, and then a chop. Doesn't really matter though - I assume you would just chop whatever you've got left after finishing uni/oxford.

Why do you say 2 turn minimum? Aren't there only 2 penalties for rush-buying: no hammers and wonder build? IIRC, if you chop, you immediately invest the hammers and remove that penalty. Or is this different in BTS?

With 6 opponents I've never missed Physics on vanilla, even with only 1 commerce and without the Oracle. Maybe BTS values paper a bit more.

 

[WastinTime]

Not sure if if BTS values paper or maybe I was just too generous in my trades. Either way, the game with Wang was about to lose the race to Lib unless I took something, so I took Print Press.

Chopping is different in BTS. I think it's better in almost every way except it costs you a turn in this case. You never accidentally chop into the wrong build with BTS. The hammers build up and then you can change production to anything you want. You can even change to Org. Rel. and then all the chops retroactively get +25% (another advantage of being spiritual). It still works even if you're not spiritual, but then you lose a turn for anarchy. The biggest advantage is that you can chop into Research and you don't lose the hammers. So I probably chopped 15 forests with just 2 workers while researching Radio/MM.

 

[FiveAces]

Another thing I've found that might be helpful - a low seas fractal map is often similar to a pangea in that you can meet everyone quickly (though sometimes you have to park a warrior where he can see a landmass over water), but the AI seems to prioritize astronomy and the techs leading up to it more so than on a true pangea map.

Do those research chops go towards research or accumulate until you switch to a bldg/unit/wonder?

 

[WastinTime]

Do those research chops go towards research or accumulate until you switch to a bldg/unit/wonder?

Accumulate. You can have hundreds ready to go, but you have to be sure you don't have anything else to build. I think you'd lose most of it to overflow if you built something small, but maybe they changed overflow rules too.

 

[FiveAces]

Oh wow. No wonder you could buy the UN on immortal. I don't think I'll be able to do that on vanilla then - have to go the GE route instead. Bummer.

 

[Dracandross]

Well with BTS going for GE isnt that bad (at least with phi leader). If you fail you can always get GA and switch those nasty civics. Specially isnt there other buildings you could chop instead (of course GE lowers growth and therefore science so it might damage research instead enough)

I think I coulda made better without messing up a bit that. And I didnt think that you could save lib for physics instead, thats nice.

Currently at 1255 AD (3rd).

-Dracandross

 

[FiveAces]

Well after regerating for over 2 hours and ruining a couple playable starts with bad initial moves, I got this beauty:

Spoiler :

View attachment 173135

Needless to say I settled in place. The 1 fogged tile in the BFC turned out to have spices. I started a bit slow due to the need to build workboats and the clams only providing 4F each. The academy wasn't built until I was almost halfway through CS. But once I got going...

Finished in 1208. I was unlucky. Despite trading for and immeditately gifting the pre-req's to everyone, the AI did not discover democracy by the time I got MM in 1148 so I had to build the UN for ~5 turns (after the GE) before I could whip it. I had no forests left , the last one went for the obs since I had mega cash and didn't foresee the US problem.

I made 2 mistakes - not switching to an observatory build imediately upon astro and not running an artist for a few more turns or building NE to pop the 3rd great person before finishing MM. It popped the turn after and was a GA. Bummer. If I had done both I could have shaved maybe 4-5 turns off the MM date.

I got MC after CS and popped the GE at ~85% (after Oxford). I also researched philo, mach and compass on my own. Managed to trade for Optics. I probably could have traded later (after Oxford) for philo but that would have lessened the odds of the GE and I didn't want to do that.

It also might have been better to beeline CoL to run the sci's since the library was delayed by the workboat builds. I might replay the map once it's accepted and see if I can better the MM date. I might also "pretend" I have BTS and see how fast I can get MM by running a sci instead of a engineer .

EDIT: Screenshot is now available. Spiritual was essential. I changed civics over a dozen times.