G-Major 34

[Sun Tzu Wu]

@Sun Tzu Wu

This is exactly what I was confused about when I first tried a religious victory. I thought I had to run the AP religion to be a candidate in elections, but this is not correct. In a nutshell:

The AP works like the UN, in the sense that whichever civ builds the AP is always a candicate in elections.
This is true regardless of which religion they are running. It is also true if the AP builder is running no religion, or free religion.
The opponent will be the civ running the AP religion with the highest votes. If no civ is running the AP religion, the only candidate in the election will be the builder of the AP.

What this means is that, if you want to, you need only run the AP religion for the turn when you build the AP, and then switch as soon as you are able to no religion, free religion or to any other religion for the remainder of the game.

In your situation, I would probably switch to no/free religion, unless Hattie's religion is shared by other civs and you actually need the bonus for sharing a religion. You definitely don't want her to switch to the AP religion.

Thanks for the info!

I'll probably try sticking with the AP Religion, because I need the doubled votes. I don't think I have time to switch to Hatshepsut's Religion and back in time for the first resolution. I'm guessing they are 14 turns apart at epic speed (they were 10 turns apart at normal speed, if I recall correctly). Next resolution in about 5 turns.

If the bonus for shared War goes up in time, I should have the needed bonus with Hatshepsut in any case (currently +1; Hat declared War 4 or 5 turns ago.)

I don't think Hatshepsut will switch to the AP Religion, since she has been busy spreading every Religion she has to all her Cities. I hope she switches to Free Religion soon. That would eliminate the -3 conflicting Religion penalty with Hat. I believe Mansa Musa has adopted FR. (I don't have either Philosophy or Liberalism due to focus on war mongering Technologies.)

Sun Tzu Wu

 

[Sun Tzu Wu]

I'll probably try sticking with the AP Religion, because I need the doubled votes. I don't think I have time to switch to Hatshepsut's Religion and back in time for the first resolution.

In my game I recently captured a Population 11 City, so I recalculated my vote with the assumption of converting to No State Religion. The total of my new vote amount plus Hatshepsut vote and Mansa Musa's vote came to a little over 75%. So I converted to No Religion, lost the conflicting Religion penalty of -3 or -4 and my Diplomacy with Hatshepsut went from +9 to +13! I really needed Hatshepsut's vote, so it was well worth the risk (and no need to switch back to the AP Religion).

If the bonus for shared War goes up in time, I should have the needed bonus with Hatshepsut in any case (currently +1; Hat declared War 4 or 5 turns ago.)

I didn't get or need more of a shared War Diplomatic bonus, but I did capture a Population 8 City from my competition on the last turn. Even though he lost that City and gained none, he had a Population gain of 8 that resulted in no net gain. That captured City boosted my own vote count by 7 and I really needed it. I won by a two vote margin!

RL DV on Turn 281 AD 1305 (submitted but not checked yet)

Rather late, but this is my first Religious Leader Diplomatic Victory so I'm happy with the win. In any case, the unexpected heavy war mongering was great fun! It did distract me from Diplomacy at times though.

Sun Tzu Wu

 

[Mesix]

I don't think Hatty adopts Free Religion very often. Her favorite civic is Organized Religion. That is why she is such a good opponent for AP games. Organized Religion comes early and is useful for building missionaries. If you run her state religion and the Organized Religion civic you are almost guaranteed to get her votes in the election. If you spread the AP religion to her first, she will take care of spreading to a lot of her cities to get extra votes (provided you stay in good diplo standing).

 

[Sun Tzu Wu]

I don't think Hatty adopts Free Religion very often. Her favorite civic is Organized Religion. That is why she is such a good opponent for AP games. Organized Religion comes early and is useful for building missionaries. If you run her state religion and the Organized Religion civic you are almost guaranteed to get her votes in the election. If you spread the AP religion to her first, she will take care of spreading to a lot of her cities to get extra votes (provided you stay in good diplo standing).

What you're saying makes perfect sense. I just don't understand why she spread non-State Religions and non-AP Religions to her Cities. Perhaps, the reason was her Religion founded by Mansa Musa was dominant, but toward the end, only she had it as her State Religion. However, none of the other Religions she was spreading with the exception of the AP Religion were the State Religions of any Civ.

She did spread the AP Religion to more of her Cities after I stopped doing so. She had not founded any of the Religions and I didn't want her to adopt the AP Religion, so I spread the AP Religion only to her Cities with Population 5 or more. She probably spread the AP Religion and Christianity to all her Cities.

After seeing her spread three non-State Religions (one being the AP Religion), I converted one of her Cities to a Religion new to her Civ (my third Shrine Religion of course). She started spreading it too. Why, if not to adopt Free Religion?

BTW, I had three Holy Cities with Shrines making tons of Currency, two in my Capital and one in Darius I's former capital. I built Markets in each and was building Banks in both when I won. With Hatshepsut spreading two of those Religions to every City in her vast Civilization, she easily accounted for half my Shrine income.

Sun Tzu Wu

 

[AAA]

380ADish, but I had to chase down optics to find everybody, one continent certainly would be faster.

The AIs seemed to vote for me very easily. Do you need the same numbers that you would for a standard diplomatic victory?

 

[Sun Tzu Wu]

The AIs seemed to vote for me very easily. Do you need the same numbers that you would for a standard diplomatic victory?

You need 75% of the vote for a Religious Leader Diplomatic Victory.

The United Nations Diplomatic Victory requires 60% of the vote.

WARNING:

The Religious Leader Diplomatic Victory option will not appear or will be invalidated if you alone have 75% of the vote.

The United Nations Diplomatic Victory option will not appear or will be invalidated if you alone have 60% of the vote.

In either case, you can't simply vote yourself to a Diplomatic Victory. "After all, its a 'Diplomatic Victory', not a 'Food Victory'"!

Sun Tzu Wu

 

[ZPV]

The AIs seemed to vote for me very easily. Do you need the same numbers that you would for a standard diplomatic victory?

I think so - they need to be +7 or better, and they need to like you more than your opponent, including hidden modifiers (Friendly is +9). If you choose the right AI, or if you have shared religion/civic bonuses is is very easy indeed to get them to vote for you.

e.g. +4 fair trade, +2 open borders, +1 years of peace, +1 shared technology, +1 you gave us help, +1 supplied resources, etc. = +10, which is more than enough even without religion or civics

 

[Mesix]

What you're saying makes perfect sense. I just don't understand why she spread non-State Religions and non-AP Religions to her Cities. Perhaps, the reason was her Religion founded by Mansa Musa was dominant, but toward the end, only she had it as her State Religion. However, none of the other Religions she was spreading with the exception of the AP Religion were the State Religions of any Civ.

She did spread the AP Religion to more of her Cities after I stopped doing so. She had not founded any of the Religions and I didn't want her to adopt the AP Religion, so I spread the AP Religion only to her Cities with Population 5 or more. She probably spread the AP Religion and Christianity to all her Cities.

After seeing her spread three non-State Religions (one being the AP Religion), I converted one of her Cities to a Religion new to her Civ (my third Shrine Religion of course). She started spreading it too. Why, if not to adopt Free Religion?

BTW, I had three Holy Cities with Shrines making tons of Currency, two in my Capital and one in Darius I's former capital. I built Markets in each and was building Banks in both when I won. With Hatshepsut spreading two of those Religions to every City in her vast Civilization, she easily accounted for half my Shrine income.

Sun Tzu Wu

Same of the AI players just like to spread religion...any religion. I think it might be related to the Spiritual trait but it also seems to be related to certain Civilizations regardless of leader, so it may be coded that way. Egypt, India, and Spain all seem to spread any religion present in their cities. I'm sure that there are more civs, but these three seem to spread the most. It may just be that they have a heavier weight to building missionaries.

Hatty and Isabella will not adopt Free Religion very often, even though they spread all the religions. It is because their favorite civic is another religions civic (Organized Religion and Theocracy).

 

[Sun Tzu Wu]

I think so - they need to be +7 or better, and they need to like you more than your opponent, including hidden modifiers (Friendly is +9). If you choose the right AI, or if you have shared religion/civic bonuses is is very easy indeed to get them to vote for you.

Different Civs have different thresholds for Friendly, Pleased, Cautious, etc.

For example, Hatshepsut at +9 is merely Pleased, not Friendly (at least in my last game).

It is best to have no opponent, but how does one spread the AP Religion to a Civ that has no Religion, yet keep them from adopting the AP Religion. Spreading a non-AP Religion to them first should work, but you'd need to ensure that it is always more popular than the AP Religion.

Sun Tzu Wu

 

[Mesix]

Different Civs have different thresholds for Friendly, Pleased, Cautious, etc.

For example, Hatshepsut at +9 is merely Pleased, not Friendly (at least in my last game).

It is best to have no opponent, but how does one spread the AP Religion to a Civ that has no Religion, yet keep them from adopting the AP Religion. Spreading a non-AP Religion to them first should work, but you'd need to ensure that it is always more popular than the AP Religion.

Sun Tzu Wu

A tip when spreading religion to civs that do not have a state religion (in the early game before Free Religion of course). Spread the non AP religion (preferably the dominant faith of the world) to their largest city first. Spread the AP religion to their least populous city after they adopt a different religion.

 

[ZPV]

I've played two games now, the first was post-1000AD, the second pre-1000BC. Guess which one I've just submitted (not accepted yet).

 

[HolyHandGrenade]

I've played two games now, the first was post-1000AD, the second pre-1000BC. Guess which one I've just submitted (not accepted yet).

A pre-1000BC game? Unbelievable Are you willing to share your strategy with us? This will be great! Because I tried this gauntlet now several times and even got my 1st diplomatic-vote at 300BC, but lost of course because my relation to the others where not high enough

 

[ZPV]

Here's what I did (more or less):

1. MapFinder a good start - mine had HillGems + Corn + Marble. Unirrigated Rice and Iron were revealed after starting. I was in the middle of a single continent.
2. Beeline alphabet (Agri - AH - Writing - Alpha) This was done ~t65. I popped Masonry from a hut during this time, but this only saved a few turns.
3. Trade round to catch up on tech. Within 2 turns I had almost all known techs, including Polytheism and Priesthood.
4. Reasearch Monotheism and Oracle > Theology. I did this ~t73 IIRC
5. Switch to Org Rel and build 2 Christian Missionaries to complement the free one from founding.
6. Build the AP. I hoped a major religion would spread to me by now, but alas, no. I was Christian the whole time building it.
7. Gift Theo to everyone. More missionaries to taste. Switch back to NSR as everyone else is Buddhist, Hindu or Jewish
8. Wait. Don't click "none" when the choice of resolution comes up.

I played as Pacal who is Exp+Fin and starts with Mining + Mysticism

My builds were: Worker > Warrior x3 IIRC > Stonehenge for a bit for the refund in gold > Library > Worker > Oracle > Missionary x2 > AP > Missionary x3 > Research

Everyone voted for me except Isabella (+6 Pleased).
I routinely gifted many small techs to everyone, and then a big gift of Theology to everyone. I also gave in to most requests for tech, and opened borders early, so the diplo situation was:

Izzy +6 Pleased
Mansa +7 Pleased
Elizabeth +8 Pleased
Pericles +8 Pleased
Roosevelt +8 Pleased
Augustus +9 Pleased

I won at the first vote.
It wasn't necessary in this game, but you can build settlers and settle near rivals, and liberate cities to them. This gets a nice large diplo bonus.

My tech path was Agriculture > AHusbandry > Writing > Alphabet > trades > Monotheism > Oracle Theology > Mathematics for chopping > trade/bribe bait

 

[Lexad]

Different Civs have different thresholds for Friendly, Pleased, Cautious, etc.

For example, Hatshepsut at +9 is merely Pleased, not Friendly (at least in my last game).
Sun Tzu Wu

All AI have the same thresholds, they have different hidden diplo pluses and minuses.

 

[Mesix]

A pre-1000BC game? Unbelievable Are you willing to share your strategy with us? This will be great! Because I tried this gauntlet now several times and even got my 1st diplomatic-vote at 300BC, but lost of course because my relation to the others where not high enough

Nice job. Being in the middle of a single continent is key. I have yet to generate a single continent map. All of mine have been two continents requiring boats to spread religion.

 

[Sun Tzu Wu]

All AI have the same thresholds, they have different hidden diplo pluses and minuses.

What are the Pleased and Friendly thresholds? Are you sure they are the same for all Civs? I'm certain I've seen two Civs with the same Diplomacy number where one was Pleased and the other was Friendly.

Sun Tzu Wu

 

[Sun Tzu Wu]

Great write-up. Thanks!

2. Beeline alphabet (Agri - AH - Writing - Alpha) This was done ~t65. I popped Masonry from a hut during this time, but this only saved a few turns.

I thought one would lost the race to Priesthood, and not get Monotheism and Writing before completing the The Oracle with an early beeline to Alphabet.

My current idea is beeline Alphabet after researching all prerequisite Technologies of Theology, prior to completing The Oracle.

3. Trade round to catch up on tech. Within 2 turns I had almost all known techs, including Polytheism and Priesthood.

Who is willing to trade Priesthood so early? Mansa Musa?

4. Research Monotheism and Oracle > Theology. I did this ~t73 IIRC

In my current game, I completed The Oracle on t71, but I'm suffering the lack of Alphabet which would allow trading for the Diplomatic bonuses.

I researched Monotheism quite early (t53), thus founded Judaism.

5. Switch to Org Rel and build 2 Christian Missionaries to complement the free one from founding.

An earlier Organized Religion could be used to build Jewish Missionaries. Monotheism gifted early to Hatshepsut might be quite useful for early Favorite Civic Diplomatic bonus.

6. Build the AP. I hoped a major religion would spread to me by now, but alas, no. I was Christian the whole time building it.

Having either Buddhism or Hinduism (the usual major Religions) isn't much good, unless nearly all Civs have the same State Religion (usually either Buddhism or Hinduism). No State Religion is best when possible.

Build The Apostolic Palace as soon as possible. Obviously it will help one to win sooner, but it also limits the conflicting Religion Diplomatic penalties to as few turns as possible.

7. Gift Theo to everyone. More missionaries to taste. Switch back to NSR as everyone else is Buddhist, Hindu or Jewish

Great idea. Just be sure any AI with Favorite Civic of Theocracy already has the AP Religion.

8. Wait. Don't click "none" when the choice of resolution comes up.

Why would anyone click "None"?

Click Diplomatic Victory, even if you aren't sure you have the votes. Or if not everyone has the AP Religion, select the option with greatest chance of making the win either faster, easier or both.

I played as Pacal who is Exp+Fin and starts with Mining + Mysticism

I'd recommend a Leader that has the Industrious trait, since the major strategy requires building two Wonders, The Oracle and The Apostolic Palace. Also nice for getting 1.5G per 1H expended in Stonehenge or other wonders when they aren't completed. Spiritual is nice too for switching Civics and Religions without the anarchy penalty.

My builds were: Worker > Warrior x3 IIRC > Stonehenge for a bit for the refund in gold > Library > Worker > Oracle > Missionary x2 > AP > Missionary x3 > Research

Did you build any Settlers?

I think that One City Challenge could win this Gauntlet.

Everyone voted for me except Isabella (+6 Pleased).
I routinely gifted many small techs to everyone, and then a big gift of Theology to everyone. I also gave in to most requests for tech, and opened borders early, so the diplo situation was:

Izzy +6 Pleased
Mansa +7 Pleased
Elizabeth +8 Pleased
Pericles +8 Pleased
Roosevelt +8 Pleased
Augustus +9 Pleased

I won at the first vote.

Great job for getting all Civs Pleased!

So, +7 Diplomacy is sufficient, assuming the Civ doesn't like the other candidate better or there is no other candidate.

Were you the only candidate? That would help a lot.

Hatshepsut may be a better opponent due to her Favorite Civic being Organized Religion and one has to run OR often to build Missionaries anyway.

It wasn't necessary in this game, but you can build settlers and settle near rivals, and liberate cities to them. This gets a nice large diplo bonus.

Great tip, but building a Settler at a cost of 149H and no growth in the building City can really slow down one's Civ. Any game needing this tip will probably not win this Gauntlet.

My tech path was Agriculture > AHusbandry > Writing > Alphabet > trades > Monotheism > Oracle Theology > Mathematics for chopping > trade/bribe bait

I didn't think that a Alphabet beeline would work, but obviously it did work very well.

Since you started with Mysticism, Polytheism -> Priesthood -> Writing -> Alphabet would be far faster. (You might even found Hinduism and let the Buddhism founder spread his Religion around.) Even needing to research Mysticism, the Alphabet beeline though Priesthood is still significantly faster. It would also allow starting the The Oracle earlier when there may not be any other important things to build.

Sun Tzu Wu

 

[ZPV]

I thought one would lost the race to Priesthood, and not get Monotheism and Writing before completing the The Oracle with an early beeline to Alphabet.

The early library really helps here. This is not Deity - you can wait a little while before building The Oracle.

My current idea is beeline Alphabet after researching all prerequisite Technologies of Theology, prior to completing The Oracle.

This makes things very tight diplomatically and religiously, and how will you chop TAP without Bronze Working?

Who is willing to trade Priesthood so early? Mansa Musa?

Yep.

Build The Apostolic Palace as soon as possible. Obviously it will help one to win sooner, but it also limits the conflicting Religion Diplomatic penalties to as few turns as possible.

I thought this at first, but I think it is marginally quicker to build 1 or 2 missionaries to infect the most distant AI beforehand, due to the limit of only having three at a time.

Why would anyone click "None"?

Just my idea of a joke.

I'd recommend a Leader that has the Industrious trait, since the major strategy requires building two Wonders, The Oracle and The Apostolic Palace. Also nice for getting 1.5G per 1H expended in Stonehenge or other wonders when they aren't completed. Spiritual is nice too for switching Civics and Religions without the anarchy penalty.

This may be best, but you have to give up starting with Mysticism (Myst + Ind was removed in Warlords/BTS when Gandhi was changed from Ind to Philo).

That means either having to brave a third turn of trading to trade for Priesthood or self-researching.

Did you build any Settlers?

No. I don't think I built any roads either.

I think that One City Challenge could win this Gauntlet.

There is no benefit, however from checking OCC. (It is too early for national wonders or cathedrals)

So, +7 Diplomacy is sufficient, assuming the Civ doesn't like the other candidate better or there is no other candidate.

Think of it this way. Each AI has two diplo values, one you can see, and one you can't. What you can see in the Glance tab, for instance, is only the first of these two values.

When calculating the relations, the AI adds up the visible value and the one you can't see,

true diplo = visible + hidden

When true diplo is +7 or higher, and it is higher than your opponent, they will vote for you.
Similarly, it is the true diplo value that is used when calculating Cautious/Pleased/Friendly/etc, and the threshhold for these are the same for all AIs.

Were you the only candidate? That would help a lot.

Yes. The three Ancient religions didn't spread quickly enough to make using them as the AP religion viable, but quickly enough that I could infect the other AIs without them converting to Christianity.

Great tip, but building a Settler at a cost of 149H and no growth in the building City can really slow down one's Civ. Any game needing this tip will probably not win this Gauntlet.

Possibly not. My 1080 AD game used this .

More seriously, the in the time spent waiting for the resolution to become available, any hammers spent are most likely wasted, so this might be something useful to put them into.

I didn't think that a Alphabet beeline would work, but obviously it did work very well.
Since you started with Mysticism, Polytheism -> Priesthood -> Writing -> Alphabet would be far faster. (You might even found Hinduism and let the Buddhism founder spread his Religion around.) Even needing to research Mysticism, the Alphabet beeline though Priesthood is still significantly faster. It would also allow starting the The Oracle earlier when there may not be any other important things to build.

It might require fewer beakers, but Agriculture lets you farm your food resources, letting you grow fast and run scientists. I'm not sure which route requires the fewest turns, or leaves you in the best shape for continuing to the SP. My gut instinct says the Agriculture route, however.

 

[HolyHandGrenade]

Thanks ZPV for sharing your experience

Here's what I did (more or less):

1. MapFinder a good start - mine had HillGems + Corn + Marble. Unirrigated Rice and Iron were revealed after starting. I was in the middle of a single continent.

Are you starting on plain-hills?
I assume you saw Iron after getting IW through trade

Izzy +6 Pleased
Mansa +7 Pleased
Elizabeth +8 Pleased
Pericles +8 Pleased
Roosevelt +8 Pleased
Augustus +9 Pleased

What's the reason for choosing these opponents? Do they have something special which is good for diplomatic relations?

After trying several strategies to reach 0AD I think I should give this one a chance

 

[The-Hawk]

I've played two games now, the first was post-1000AD, the second pre-1000BC. Guess which one I've just submitted (not accepted yet).

Oops... I've been bumped to #2. Well done . I don't think I'm going to try and chase your time down. I needed an immortal ice age map for EQM, but now I have it. I really am not a fan of religious games.