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G-Major XLVII

Discussion in 'Civ5 - Hall of Fame Discussion' started by Peets, Mar 30, 2014.

  1. Peets

    Peets Emperor Hall of Fame Staff

    Joined:
    Jul 23, 2008
    Messages:
    1,056
    Location:
    Belgium
    While the general Hall of Fame is an ongoing competition, we like to run time-definite competitions between updates that we call Gauntlets. Standard Hall of Fame rules (*) still apply, but any games meeting the settings will be counted towards the Gauntlet.

    (*) Please read the >> HOF rules << BEFORE playing!

    Settings:
    • Expansion: Brave New World
    • Victory Condition: Culture (though all victory conditions must be enabled)
    • Difficulty: Emperor
    • Map Size: Standard
    • Map Type: Inland Sea
    • Speed: Standard
    • Leader: Sweden (Gustavus Adolphus)
    • Opponents: Must include Austria (Maria Theresa), Brazil (Pedro II), Celts (Boudicca), Egypt (Ramesses II), France (Napoleon), Morocco (Ahmad al-Mansur), Siam (Ramkhamhaeng)
    • Version: SV8
    • Date: 1st April to 1st May 2014
    The earliest finish date wins, with score as a tiebreaker.
     
  2. zenmaster

    zenmaster King Supporter

    Joined:
    Jul 25, 2007
    Messages:
    690
    Location:
    Hong Kong
    Ok, I liked the last G Minor with an OCC Brazil culture focus as it gave you the option to play for a peacefulish culture win (without Sacred Sites) while still being in the running for a competitive finish time.

    I was hoping this Swedish gauntlet would be similar but without the OCC stipulation; I don't think that will be the case.

    With the high culture and wondermongering AI opponents list, it seems like a peaceful race for tourism will be the least time efficient pathway. Does anyone else think differently?

    Much as I hate to say it, it seems spreading culture mainly with bows and spears will prove the fastest means to attain victory in this one... assuming Emperor difficulty is high enough level to prevent a plethora of Sacred Sites from dotting the map.

    Haven't tried to use Sacred Sites at Emperor level. It would seem that Boudicca and desert religion spamming Moroccans would make it even tougher than usual. Has anyone won this way on Emperor?

    Will probably attempt to see if piety can possibly rule the day before succumbing to the baser instinct of war :).

    Sent from my GT-N7105 using Tapatalk
     
  3. dinanipedro

    dinanipedro highlander

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    an island
    The 10% great person generation with each DoF might make a peaceful approach just as viable - you can always get the AI into fighting eachother;
    they will be less occupied with humanistic wonders and warring it out ;-)
     
  4. Cromagnus

    Cromagnus Deity

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    Sacred Sites + warmongering (to make space for your expos) is probably the optimal strategy. With all the potential cultural runaways, other means of winning will probably be too slow to medal.
     
  5. dinanipedro

    dinanipedro highlander

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    in my current attempt the only one I'm worrying about at t160 is Napoleon - his liberty aesthetics has him at around 4000 culture with the other civs still at 2k to 2,5k - manageable when all the tourism kicks

    i've gone tradition, aesthetics and rationalism with GL, Petra and Sistine in cap, guilds up and running of course

    planning on taking freedom and GS'ing my way up to the internet

    edit) yeah, this gauntlet will become the swedish invasion of Paris - the sooner the better
     
  6. Thorak

    Thorak Warlord

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    Dec 22, 2013
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    181
    I am not so sure sacred sites is the optimal strategy for this challenge but maybe I am just doing it wrong. Will be interesting to see which strategy wins this...
     
  7. Airny

    Airny Warlord

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    297
    Location:
    Germany
    Tried to go Sacred Sites, but the other religions took the last three religious buildings before I could get an enhanced religion. Sacred Sites might be good for early win, but I think it's quite luck-based.
    I like the map for getting easy knowledge of all the civs' locations.
     
  8. Thorak

    Thorak Warlord

    Joined:
    Dec 22, 2013
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    I have done a few sacred sites tries. got 2 religious buildings up and running and the sacerd sites policy. The problem I have is that when I am behind in tech (which is what will happen when using sacred sites) I have problems conquering the AI. So I haven't been able to win that way, but maybe I just need some more sacred sites practice...
    But yeah, it is an extreme gamble.

    I just won a domination victory by mistake. Started warring at turn 100 or so using crossbowmen, had Morocca alive and influential, but when I took the last capital at turn 197 I forgot to give back Moroccos capital so I won domination.

    I have to admit, this gauntlet is very entertaining. I am not sure which tree to choose, all of tradition (peaceful/science game), liberty (early domination), piety (sacred sites), honor (using great generals for swedish ability and early domination) seems viable to me.

    I am not so sure warring is actually that much quicker than playing it peacefully either, but I think a late war might be the correct strategy. I think I will wait for artilley next time and just snipe the civ/civs which causes me trouble tourism wise. Great wall without artillery is so painful, especially when I used up my great generals for CS:s influence.

    Tell me, do I suck at war, or does it take 90 turns to conquer all AI:s with crossbowman on an inland sea map? I used 2 armies of roughly 5 crossbowmen, 1 horseman, 2 pikes going in both direction around the sea in the middle. Do I play too carefully (I almost never lose any units)? Maybe it is because I stop building military units and focus on tourism since I need that as well, hmm...
     
  9. Airny

    Airny Warlord

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    Germany
    I just calculated you take 26turns per civ.
    That's too much.
    Didn't you use siege units?
     
  10. Thunda

    Thunda Chieftain

    Joined:
    Oct 7, 2013
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    Trying my first gauntlet. Going with a sacred sites approach but think im doing something wrong. I was able to get desert folklore, pagodas and mosques and the sacred sites policy. I went straight piety and was able to ally 1 cutlure city state and friend another to help get through the tree. I'm currently on turn 143 with 20 tourism, 8 cities, and at war with my neighbor Austria. I don't yet have crossbows, which I think was a mistake not getting the tech earlier because my CB are having trouble taking first austria city strength 19. Other mistake is I opened Aestheticsw and I think instead I should have went honor for 2nd tree and ramp up the war effort. Probably should have started the wars about 40 turns ago too i'm thinking.
     
  11. Cromagnus

    Cromagnus Deity

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    Yeah, my SS run ended up not going so well... like, the worst SS game ever: t299. :lol:

    I went warlike early, opened Liberty to the Free Settler, spammed archers and took out my two neighbors by like t100. I used the great generals that spawned from that to ally cultural 3 CS, but I missed Oracle by a few turns and didn't get Sacred Sites until like t120 as a result.

    I went Liberty first so that I could get extra happiness/production in each city, esp for building settlers, thinking it would be better to get more cities out quickly while the religious buildings were cheap. You don't need Sacred Sites to get the happiness, was my logic.

    So, as a result, when I did get sacred sites I immediately jumped to 50 tourism or so. The problem I ran into was the compromise of SS, war and technology. I got machinery late because of a late NC. As a result, my war crawl stalled after 2 opponents until I could get XBs. After 3 opponents were down, I had two cultural runaways left... and the accessible one had focused on defensive wonders. XBs don't do crap against a strength 80 city. So I had to pause until artillery. Which took even longer because I hadn't been focusing on education. All those cities without universities really hurt. And I somehow lost World's Fair despite having like 30 cities... Brazil invested 1250! I thought I had it won at 1100 so I stopped. :(

    SO that delayed things further. Eventually I stopped caring about efficiency and just went ICS:

    Spoiler :


    When I finally got artillery, I took out the 2 runaways, but it was sooo late by then. Basically, I bottlenecked myself tech-wise. 500 faith/turn is useless when each new city only adds 4 tourism.

    That's the trick. Sacred Sites is good ROI until about 10 cities. At that point, a new city is only +10% tourism. An archaeologist is +5% tourism, (if you're at 40) and doesn't hurt your tech or happiness. So you have to get those cities up FAST and get SS fast too, so that you're pushing 40 tourism early enough to win. With cultural runaways though, it's too risky.

    For my second attempt I'm just going to go back and do a traditional warmonger-assisted cultural victory... ie focus on tech, capture all the great works and cultural wonders, spam archae-lol-ogists and rely on eliminating the cultural runaways. Cultural victory is my weakness, generally, but with all opponents easily accessible, I think I can clear the map of all runaways by t180 or so without sacrificing tech growth, which (for me) will be faster than a peaceful CV.

    The only downside is that because it's emperor, the AI won't have many great works by the time I get artillery... On Deity you can steal tons of wonders/great works. I'm thinking sci theory->artillery->archaeology->refrigeration->radar... and with any luck I won't even get to radar. ;)

    It's refreshing to have an HOF game on Emperor... Unless you get lucky, CBs aren't good enough to clear the whole map. :D

    I'm also tempted to try peaceful to see how effective 6 DOFs for +60% GS/GA/GW/GM generation might be. I've never really tried Sweden for peaceful CV, and it would be fun to try that.

    I'm also tempted to start with Full Liberty->Left side honor, for tons of great generals to gift once the warpath starts. Hmmm, decisions decisions!
     
  12. Moriarte

    Moriarte Immortal

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    Sounds like you had a fair share of fun, Cro. :)

    Pretty sure standard free settler --> full piety --> musician from liberty SS ICS thing will dominate over all strategies on a desert start. Can be as fast as turn 150. Add in Uluru, few good CS alliances, harassing AI's here and there to restrict them from wonders & cs alliances and boom.

    Alternative: SS & composite bow rush. Kill everything except for one civ, starting with archers. Send in a musician.
     
  13. Thorak

    Thorak Warlord

    Joined:
    Dec 22, 2013
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    181
    Try it. Turn 150 is really tough. The challenge is the balance between tech/tourism/warfare. This is why I prefer culture victory over domination as it is a lot more complex to do it efficiently. For domination all you need to do is conquer 7 cities and you win. This is not the case for culture.
     
  14. Memoryjar

    Memoryjar Emperor

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    Location:
    Lille, France
    I'm glad. I was a little bit annoyed that this gauntlet is on Emperor instead Immortal. ICS sacred site is nearly a lucky win on Immortal. So, I thought on Emperor it was easier.

    Happily, It's not as easy. Also a recent HoF were Warlord - Morrocco - CV. Fastest was T123 (Despite desert base start). I think, T150 on Emperor is really hard. Peaceful CV on Emperor is between T230-260, for a standard game (and you need musician if you cannot have International game when you reach hotel). If you're good in science game, it can be faster. So, if you can have a warry CV before T200, I'm interested to see that. :)

    I'm surprise, Austria is a cultural runaway ? Or is it there for CS affinity ? I don't use to have some trouble in my CV games when Austria is here.
     
  15. Cromagnus

    Cromagnus Deity

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    Yeah, it was a fun map. But, as you can see I lost focus and ended up playing ICS, which was counter-productive to early victory. ;) I had fun dominating the map and seeing how far I could take the ICS. I eventually overcame my tech deficit by capturing a neighbor's GP to get Jesuit Education. I used him to convert 4 cities, then spawned missionaries to convert the the rest, using my own GP to convert each city back after it had a university. At 200fpt, 160 for a university was nothing. So I didn't have any universities until t160 but suddenly I had 15. ;) It was definitely a fun run. Although, managing 30 cities is too tedious. I could have played 5 pure warlike games in the time it took me to do one ICS win. :p

    Looking back, one problem is that I couldn't decide which method of victory to pursue. I started off with a standard Liberty CB rush... IE your alternative method. I had 6 CBs and was taking down cities early. But then I switched focus to putting up cities for SS and that slowed down my war rush a lot. Maybe I should have focused 90% on CB rush and 10% on sacred sites. One thing I did that was probably a mistake was going for Mathematics before Philosophy, in order to get Courthouses early. That delayed NC. Putting up new cities for SS also delayed NC. Annexing delayed NC. Etc. Etc. The truth is, I probably didn't even need NC. I could have skipped philosophy and gone straight for machinery I think. At the very least, I didn't need to research philosophy 30 turns before I built NC. ;)

    I think straight SS is possible on this map if you focus on it. If you get lucky you can post a t150 win that way.

    I think war rush is a more reliable strategy for inland sea though. As you suggest, capture all but one city of one neighbor, clear the map, and culture bomb him.

    In my game, I had influential status by t150 with my immediate neighbor... it would have been game over right then if I'd focused on war rush.

    If I try another Liberty war rush it'll probably be Chariot Archers though. On Emperor, I believe that's a faster path to victory than CBs, because you can clear the map before you need to upgrade, and the extra moves make all the difference.

    I'm torn though. I kinda want to take advantage of the UA and go peaceful CV for the ~+50% GA/GW/GM. I know it won't be as fast as SS or warpath, but I've never really taken advantage of Sweden's UA.

    Moriarte, I noticed your trademark Deity Dom games in the HOF update. Welcome back! :)
     
  16. Cromagnus

    Cromagnus Deity

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    Warlike CV before t200 is easy if you remove SS from the equation. I was trying to accomplish a ~t120 win by getting early tourism from SS AND simultaneously nuking everyone with significant cultural output. That is trickier. It's hard enough to clear the map by t100 on Emperor, let alone generate tons of tourism by t120... unless you're Attila maybe. With the rough terrain restriction removed, Horse Archers move so fast that you could go early war, and still pull off SS early. IMHO. (Because you don't have to spend as many hammers on units... on Emperor inland sea I think 6 horse archers + 2 spearmen can clear the map)

    I'm not sure what Austria brings to the table. Maybe +25% GP generation? They had the lowest cultural output in my game. But, that's totally random. Siam was the second lowest. :p

    If I have time in the next 3 weeks, (which seems unlikely) I'm going to make 4 more attempts at this. 1) early rush switching to tourism focus after all but one opponent are dead, 2) peaceful Sweden UA CV, 3) Artillery rush CV (to capture wonders and great works while eliminating runaways), 4) pure SS.

    I still think blended warlike SS is the fastest method, but it requires too much juggling, and it's too random on Emperor... AIs get religions too. ;-) I don't want to re-roll THAT MUCH. :p
     
  17. Thorak

    Thorak Warlord

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    I think you might be underestimating how easily the AI falls on emperor. Sure you can take out some civs using war chariots and spearmen but I think you will run out of steam after a while. But on the other hand I am rather slow at killing the AI so maybe it's possible...
     
  18. Cromagnus

    Cromagnus Deity

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    Yes, you will run out of steam in non-ideal circumstances. But inland sea is basically ideal: two armies is all you need... always a straight line towards next opponent. The only risk is running into a mountain range or heavy jungle. But, the Wheel is an early tech, and although Chariot Archers are more expensive for sure than building/upgrading archers, you can actually start your warpath earlier. (Buy one, build two and you're taking cities on t40)

    It takes practice of course, and I sometimes forget that. I've been doing a lot of Chariot Archer rush so I've internalized a lot of the tricks.

    EDIT: On the positive side, the G-Minor is perfect training for this. If this were Deity, I'd favor the promotion path over insta-heal, because a logistics Chariot Archer is relevant much longer, but on Emperor the AIs techs more slowly, so you can get away with insta-heal, which results in faster clearing of the map. (as long as you go quickly enough to clear it by 130)

    By the way, chariot archer rush works on every difficulty level. It's harder, by far, on Deity, and harder still if you're not playing with Attila, but it is achievable.

    However, if you don't have a lot of experience with chariot archer rush, I do recommend going for logistics. The reason being that, if you conquer slowly, you need logistics, or your chariot archers will eventually get one-shot killed. It's a catch-22 though. Using the promotions for heals leads to faster city capture... so, it's a self-fulfilling prophecy. If you go for logistics, you need logistics... ;)

    EDIT: For a good example of the insta-heal strategy, check out Klaskeren's videos. For an example of the logistics strategy, my Attila guide is decent, although Attila is somewhat of a special case. But, that guide results in ~t100 pangaea domination wins on Deity, so I firmly believe t100 emperor Chariot Archer wins are achievable using either approach. (Earlier if you go OCC)
     
  19. Thorak

    Thorak Warlord

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    I'll give it a try using pure liberty, and we'll see how it works out.

    Regarding instakill, wouldn't cover prevent that? Cities attacks are ranged right? So archer-types will use their ranged strength and cover will give 30% or 60% if lvl3 unit? If so instead of 4 promotions only 2 will be needed to keep the unit alive. I feel getting 100 xp takes too long but 30 can be gained from barbs...
     
  20. Memoryjar

    Memoryjar Emperor

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    I saw a thread that conclude cover doesn't reduce cities attacks damage.
     

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