G-Minor III

is the AIs willingness to give you all their gold in a peace treaty when you offer no proximate threat an equivalent inept design that should be banned?
No. The AI is stupid. They're supposed to be more stupid the lower the level.

Regarding "selling" peace treaties, Greece appears to be in dire need of doing it while Persia finds it better to wait. The cost difference between UUs is a big hurdle. Banning the "sale" of peace treaties appears, to me, to be a ban on Greece.
 
No. The AI is stupid. They're supposed to be more stupid the lower the level.

i don't believe that's true. a deity AI will give you all their gold as well when you have a significantly stronger army; the AIs bonuses to growth, production, and upgrade costs at those levels just makes it much harder to achieve
 
Yep, we need a hard ruling on this one. I didn't use any gold trading in my most recent game submitted above (lost in the rules debate, Methos is right)--except when I actually had an extra lux to sell.

Obviously if milking the AI for cash is allowable, those who want to win will do it in this competition, unless it is banned.

Personally I think it should be allowed, for reasons cited above by others--and yet I've chosen not to do it in my games because it's cheesy. It's more about abusing a game mechanic than playing the game--but again, that distinction is entirely subjective and thus not really enforceable.

All kudos to Mallow, btw. 91 is tough to beat.

Interesting tidbits posted about the civs and this gauntlet, here and there amongst the arguments about the non-rule. I hadn't considered using Monty or France to get to meritocracy to bulb iron. I had thought about bulbing iron, just hadn't quite gotten that far.

And now I need to look up the different build costs of immortals and hoplites? I'd thought they were the same.

Finally, I agree that any ruling now that disallows games already submitted (even if they aren't mine, since I haven't ab/used it!) is a bad idea. Maybe just let this one stand (allow the tactic), and be clear about any future 'rules' in the OP. Anything else just stinks too much.
 
i don't believe that's true. a deity AI will give you all their gold as well when you have a significantly stronger army; the AIs bonuses to growth, production, and upgrade costs at those levels just makes it much harder to achieve
Under what conditions? The AIs have more cash and there's more ways to get it. Prince level runs out of cash too fast. It's a matter of when a civ needs to tap it. Martin's comment that TMIT's claim is specious, that early DoWs have no risk, is erroneous. Martin couldn't be more wrong. Persia is definitely better off not going for early DoWs. Which is what I'm working on now.
 
I just played 45 turns, and I'm feeling like I can't even get around the inland sea fast enough. I don't play a lot of Epic and I'm now highly discouraged that I could come anywhere close to 91.
 
i am curious to see what strats end up dominating. my best game so far has been really straightforward - i suspect mallow's 91 was using same civ/basic strat.

i have an as yet unmentioned idea that could take it. it requires some good (ruin) luck but that's mandatory in all these it seems.
 
At any rate Persia is better than expected.

Persia and France are the civs I've been playing. France for a conservative but effective time with minimal hut luck, and Persia to get lucky and go low.

Martin's comment that TMIT's claim is specious, that early DoWs have no risk, is erroneous.

This depends on who you DoW and whether or not they have the ability to interfere in your campaign. A DoW on the civ adjacent to the civ you're trying to kill is very different than a DoW on a civ that's thirty hexes away from your units, especially if you've already accounted for their scouting Warrior by locating it or making it dead.
 
That's good news.

Just discovered the AI can get flanking bonuses from either an invisible unit or my own. Probably a fluke. I only saw it once.
Persia and France are the civs I've been playing. France for a conservative but effective time with minimal hut luck, and Persia to get lucky and go low.
Hehe. I only need to know where my second city goes. Just had a decent start. BUT, it was like 1/2 the map explored and no second city location. Looking for something specific.

Edit: Darius needs 1 culture ruin to have a shot at sub 90. :) But there is another combination of ruins that would make him a runaway favorite. :D
 
I'm now highly discouraged that I could come anywhere close to 91.

Yeah, it's really tough. Even when I saw Tabarnak's 140s finish, I thought he'd accidentally played at the wrong speed.

That's good news.

I only need to know where my second city goes. Just had a decent start. BUT, it was like 1/2 the map explored and no second city location. Looking for something specific.

Edit: Darius needs 1 culture ruin to have a shot at sub 90. :) But there is another combination of ruins that would make him a runaway favorite. :D

Yes, that is good news about getting a ruling.

Something specific...that must be iron, or possibly horse. You guys are so cryptic, it's funny. (Who knows, maybe you're looking for the fountain of youth or cerro de potosi?) I'd imagine it'd be pretty nice to get your starting warrior upgraded to an immortal...especially if you got a scout archer, too.
 
@ TMIT: The settings are very relevant, given the way the rule is defined. You're attempting to add a rule (a "gold exploit" must be optimal for all possible settings) that isn't included in the post I cited and that I don't think was intended in that post. This has nothing to do with whether or not the action in question is effective, and everything to do with whether or not it is a "gold exploit" by definition. Numerous possible strategies would be effective/optimal without being a gold exploit.

The settings are irrelevant; if they are not irrelevant then the end conclusion is that rules are applied differently to each game, and not necessarily with consistency (it would actually be VERY hard to be objective and consistent with your interpretation of this even if someone tried their hardest).

I think most would agree that applying rules differently on a game to game basis is a dark road; it's just the kind of thing that opens up "I think this game should win" or "I don't like this tactic but think that one's ok" and all of a sudden the real competition is undermined by preference.

What you're saying would lead to practice like "declaring war on the AI instantly is only allowed on emperor+" or "you can't sell luxuries for gold on deity but you can do it on other levels". After all, in some cases the tactic can not realistically be done by any definition of "minimal cost". I don't know about you, but I see a lot of potential damage that such a practice could do to the HoF, starting with this gauntlet where potentially valid submissions risk rejection.

but personally i'm glad i don't have to sit and wait for barbs to pillage my resources to have the best possible game, and i'd hope most players agree.

There definitely needs to be some way to police the worst exploits that cheapen the competition, I don't think we've had anyone disagree with that. The problem is a) where you draw the line and b) what basis is used to draw that line. This *needs* to be done in a consistent and predictable way or it becomes difficult to claim winning results are anything short of one person or group's preferences rather than valid competition with a defined rule-set. I know a lot of you think consistency is some personal preference of mine, but the reason I prefer it is that rules that are not applied in a consistent fashion (IE randomly rejecting DoWs by one player for gold but not by the other for a worker because he had a unit nearby) there's no actual base for competition...people get different rules from expected.

either way, i think we just need a hard ruling.

The problem is that for this gauntlet, it's too late. People have already done it deliberately or otherwise. In this case it's hard to do anything but allow it justifiably. However in general, a hard ruling is preferable.

Note that gauntlets in general are an interesting case; they don't carry the same potential burden on the HoF tables as the general submissions and can add a ton of rules on a temporary basis in order to create unique competitions. In that capacity, selectively banning virtually anything isn't really problematic because it is limited to the one instance of competition. However, this practice is only administered fairly if done so up-front, before people start playing/submitting. Once you start banning things already done, you get into the territory of bias and arbitrary extra rules that exclude potential winning submissions improperly.

To put it another way: how much harm is caused by allowing this "exploit" in G minor III, and how much harm is caused by banning it and rejecting games that have used it?

In allowing it we have a level playing field and something that is going to involve practices reasonably expected in a "kill everyone ASAP" format at low difficulties. It also allows the application of HoF rules to be fair and consistent, something that would be difficult if a tactic that many see as valid gets banned halfway.

Banning it offers a significant hit to the credibility of the HoF rules and potentially cheapens the competition by filtering out some of the skillfully played games. What is the benefit of doing this? How does HoF do better by banning the tactic? By avoiding a tactic that is only *slightly* more abusive than standard play, and only in the circumstance of this gauntlet and not in general? Isn't the whole point of the gauntlets to *adapt* to the situation presented to find the best times within constraints? Why are we considering making up rules halfway?

Edit: People have different preferences. However, when I see a HoF submission, I think "this is what emerged from the best people competing within a given constraint when playing optimally". The more we arbitrarily crimp tactics, the further away we get from optimized play. For things that are expected to changed quickly or are unreasonable a ban is a good thing; but once you start cutting into valid tactics at random a player reading a game summary to get a picture of the strategy and how to play well begins have his understanding of what's truly strong play and what's just someone's preference blurred. I'm more interested in winning submissions that use all options reasonably available at the start of g minor III, not in submissions that won because a 10 turn faster victory was filtered out based on a rule that wasn't even clear at the start of the competition.

In other words, if this DoW for gold is the obvious strongest option in the isolated case of this gauntlet, so what? The entire draw of gauntlets is that they lead you to doing things you wouldn't otherwise. Banning tactics that arise from this kind of undermines the point of the gauntlet.
 
Something specific...that must be iron, or possibly horse. You guys are so cryptic, it's funny. (Who knows, maybe you're looking for the fountain of youth or cerro de potosi?) I'd imagine it'd be pretty nice to get your starting warrior upgraded to an immortal...especially if you got a scout archer, too.
Not iron, nor horse. It is legit to choose a map with different temp/age/climate. Getting rid of a couple of rivers or so can speed movement.
@TMIT
I tend to agree with you but having stepped into this discussion I think you owe it to the rest of us to at least submit a game in this gauntlet. Insider discussion welcome. Outsider no.
 
Does a double culture pop, an upgrade to immortal and a pop increase off the bat count as a lucky start for Darius? Map is going to screw me I'm sure of it.

Edit: Mining in, popped BW. I'm in shock.
 
Not iron, nor horse. It is legit to choose a map with different temp/age/climate. Getting rid of a couple of rivers or so can speed movement.
@TMIT
I tend to agree with you but having stepped into this discussion I think you owe it to the rest of us to at least submit a game in this gauntlet. Insider discussion welcome. Outsider no.

I've been called out on this before. Perhaps participation in HoF would be better if the rules were consistently and fairly applied? Being ignored consistently on rules discussion/basis (and not being alone in that side of the argument being ignored) both before and after the HoF for civ V started did/does not endear me to participation. Cute forum games I can do over on strategy and tips; this is supposedly a competition but until it has actual clear rules and competitively focused reasons for having them it can't be in my mind.

I might even make a let's play of it, but not if I have to explain to my viewers that I might or might not get the game rejected due to x or that I'm not doing y only because it might be loosely interpreted as an exploit. I also don't find it fun, strategically compelling, or competitively reasonable to expect players to roll maps over and over again to get lucky outcomes from barbs and ruins...

In other words, I'd love to participate in HoF a bit again (I was pretty active for a while in civ IV before I dropped out of playing civ IV for a period; I completed around half of immortal EQM and somehow still have two quick speed games on the front page. I also have more total points in IV than some key names here aka more actual play submissions...), but not if I have to constantly spam "is it ok to do this arbitrary thing that might be an exploit" via PM/email, second-guess my actions, or risk rejection on no basis.

None of this is to say that HoF should necessarily be run my way, but there are clear unaddressed issues I have with it and many of them are apparent right here in the discussion of g minor III.

And why is outsider discussion unwelcome? I've seen no statements on this forum that say so; certainly I hope that HoF is not only for those who participate (In learning civ IV I relied on it as a lurker more than one might think). Is a person who's been in and out of good and bad competitive formats who has a (for the time being) "outsider" perspective not a valid person to enjoy HoF?

I'm pretty thick-skinned so it doesn't bother me, but what kind of message does this send to newer players who read HoF tables and the discussion; that not participating in game submissions makes them not welcome? I don't agree with that statement/practice at all.

Does a double culture pop, an upgrade to immortal and a pop increase off the bat count as a lucky start for Darius? Map is going to screw me I'm sure of it.

Edit: Mining in, popped BW. I'm in shock.

Yes, that is a pretty lucky start :p. I'm starting to think that any mongol approach is better served at a bit higher of a difficulty...
 
Not iron, nor horse. It is legit to choose a map with different temp/age/climate. Getting rid of a couple of rivers or so can speed movement.
@TMIT
I tend to agree with you but having stepped into this discussion I think you owe it to the rest of us to at least submit a game in this gauntlet. Insider discussion welcome. Outsider no.

I have been choosing arid and 5 million...wasn't so sure about hot...but given that arid / 5 myo still yields some significant areas of forest, might be worth a try. Hmmn maybe cold would put some ice at the poles and force the AI closer to the center?

I disagree about TMIT needing to submit a game. What's wrong with an opinion? I think he has very valid points and is obviously a very active member of this community. You might just as well tell me not to post cause I'm a noob at this, even if I am submitting games. TMIT has over 500 times my posts, and from the few I've seen here, they seem to be of relatively high quality. Maybe there's some history here....

And yes, sounds like great luck. Good luck with it!

The guessing game (settling spot) continues: hill gems/gold/silver? EDIT: moo? 3 food tile?

Going back to what someone said about covering the 7/8 points on the rectangle...best to skip your nearest civs at first and actually kill them last??

Finally, I agree wholeheartedly with TMIT about the whole rerolling of maps being standard practice here, that it just emphasizes the luck factor. I guess that means I'm more suited to the GOTM. To each his own.
 
Well i really got no luck with ruins. No culture ruin in last 6 tries. I try to find a way to have nice starts with less luck factor. Germany UA is highly related to luck. Unfortunately, i couldnt push an enough good start(after 4-5 civs killed) to finish strong enough. I need 75% rate of barbs recruitment to keep enough units in the field for each side.

I take a lot of risk. I can lose units when RNG says that i will survive with 2 hp...keeping promos to the limit to keep the most insta-heals possible. Remind me my super level 3 spearman with 3 accumulated insta-heal lol

In last games i begin to play with Wu Zetian. I can, with just a bit of luck, to send an army of 4 units around turn 30 and try to get enough gold to purchase and send another group of 3 units around turn 40, but with a GG from my own, from barbs and conquest. This path is more stable than the Germany one and sufficiently efficient to kill at least 4 civs around turn 65, when IW is online. But, again, got bad luck with barbs, bad RNG and weird maps with large walls of mountain blocking and slowing me down. Just tried 3 games with Wu tho. I tried with 5 billions, hot and arid for last 3 games. Still got chain of mountains, and other civs can spawn in the far corner of map. Onan may be right about cold temp.

About luck factor. The success of this gauntlet is highly related to a good chunk of ruins and their bonuses.

Ruins affect a lot more shorter goal (domination), low level and slower speed games, like this gauntlet.

Can we just ban ruins? At least for these type of games? Less re-rolling, more fun for everyone and surely more fair. But it's only beta HoF, i know. Just my thoughts.
 
Banning ruins is a good idea. We almost never use them in MP, to reduce the luck factors.

I just tried hot (5 BYO) and also got a wall of mountains. Haven't tried cold yet...opted for hot as I figured it would push the forests toward the poles.

Have to say, it's been fun trying out a variety of things. Hopefully this OCD civ is improving my game in some way. :) Just tried France out, and it looks strong--even though I forgot the point and bulbed horseback instead. lol
 
Second straight time! Again an AI unit half way round the world gets in the way to screw up an 89. Still had gas to finish ~100 but gave up. Fighting 3 wars at the end. One can handle Japan, one can handle Nappy with 2 swords, 2 warriors and a barb spear spawning from behind, but the last can't handle a stupid scout getting in the way. ARGHHH!

Ruins for a gauntlet, might be good to get rid of. Remember I DO have lots of experience hut poppin.' Something in the interface might put the right idea in a person's head.
 
About luck factor. The success of this gauntlet is highly related to a good chunk of ruins and their bonuses.

i just got my first sub 100 win, and can confirm a key factor of winning strat is rerolling until you manage to hit two culture ruins - awesome.

i'm all for having ruins off in gauntlets.
 
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