G-Minor LXXXVI

First 6 to 8cities built all buildings and worker. I had resettlement, so my rush buy order were :
monument, shrine, aqueduct, grany, worshop, hospital, medical labs, settler. If I hadn't enough money that was as many buildings as I can in this build order + a worker. Next turn a settler.

When I planned to have world fair up I also added wall and castle.
My build order was :
Library, temple, amphi, market, university, obs, public school, labs, opera, museum, science.

I stopped to build other building when I reached to many got that it was impossible to spend all.

Sometimes I built a settler in a city if it took one turn. Otherwise they were always rush buy. After some turns (probably T240). I stopped to rush buy monument and shrine to priorize food.
Nearly all my factories were rush buy. Under Big Ben + order + mercantilism, building are really cheap.

In policies, you only need secularism (or resettlement + iron curtain), civil service, mercantilism and meritocracy. Other are for score and not need. For resettlement and iron curtain there's no need to rush. With Order you'll end in starving cities. No experience for Freedom.

Religion were pagodas + temple happiness. If I had an idea of meritocracy happiness I'd took food from shrine and temple + culture from temple.
 
I've finished my game yeah !

Got 19619 on 161 cities (more or less 3cities). Had 2 Maritime CS. Was slow up to 270, after that all my cities were on research and worker disbanded.

Used multiple GS at the end for future tech. Went Freedom + food religion (should have taken fertility rites on top of it). Don't feel happiness religion to be required.

Spoiler :


To answer Cromagnus I went in this completely blind without a real plan so I think I made a few mistakes:
In every city I rushed buy: Granary Workshop Aqueduct Worker
For the first half cities everything else was built with Hospital MedicalLab Monument being the priority and then getting happiness + slots. But after a while I was able to rushbuy hospitals and medical labs. At some points I had to make waves of Happiness buildings.

I ended up with an army of worker and had the map entirely covered of mines, farms and lumbermill by turn 260.

All my advanced cities produced workers and post Mercantilism I mostly rush bought them for 220 just next to where I wanted to settle.

I went for a normal 5 cities game up until Machinery at which point I slowly conquered some AI and my firsts expansions. Also I made some DoW just waiting to collect a city in the peace deal even if I was nowhere near the AI, grabed 3-4 cities like this. I conquered 2 CS and 4 AI with it. Then I just kept at peace while expanding, I had no need for faster conquest since I had to fight happiness anyway. I waited until XCOM to conquer everything else.

Religion was faith from quarry, feed the world, swords.

I don't feel you should be in a rush for science. Just play a normal game up until renaissance and you should still be able to get the ideology fast enough. You mostly need it for the happiness anyway, the food won't be important for a while since you're unlikely to have that many huge cities.
I went trad/lib mix into secularism. Then I think it was ideology. I then went Piety for temple gold, opened patronage and finished liberty (cant remember the order of these 3). I then proceeded to open all other trees for wonders. But to be honest my culture management was kind of subpar.
 
Ok, first Gauntlet for me (well, only missed 85 :p)

I was about to send the game and just noticed people was posting interesting tips at this thread, they come too late for me but still interesting to know. At least im happy to see I fit some of the strategies althought you really maxed them. I dont feel like sending my game now :shifty:

As noob in Gauntlet made a lot mistakes specially when keeping only few citis to get 'cheap' science/policies and waiting until half the game to start expanding, T250 was too late (YES, quick games only have 330 turns :wallbash:) or getting too much tourism, almost won by cultural. I needed to gift the AI some cities filled with GWs.

offtopic: my game got stucked when after planting a new city, filling it with GWs and gifting it to the AI because I didnt put something (building or unit) in the city's queue. The 'Next turn' button didnt appear, only the one asking me to order a new job in a city I dont own right now. Bug??

Anyways I learned a lot even this game were time consuming managing that amount of cities and workers, never got that before.

@Memoryjar, just curious to know, i can understand you hide some AI civilizations in your victory screenshot since you posted it while the gauntlet was still ongoing, but.... why did you hide your own civilization simbol in the domination square??

Well, maybe i'll be sending the game, someone must the the last, maybe i get the woodensword trophy :hatsoff:
 
@Memoryjar, just curious to know, i can understand you hide some AI civilizations in your victory screenshot since you posted it while the gauntlet was still ongoing, but.... why did you hide your own civilization simbol in the domination square??

No offense, it's not how I play gauntlets. I use to share everything as I use tips which people share. :D

It was some glitches. I turned all my graphical details to the lowest level to improve speed (no effect). So many icons were a dark square.

I just put Morocco and Arabia for desert start bias other were random.
 
Ok, first Gauntlet for me (well, only missed 85 :p)

I was about to send the game and just noticed people was posting interesting tips at this thread, they come too late for me but still interesting to know. At least im happy to see I fit some of the strategies althought you really maxed them. I dont feel like sending my game now :shifty:

As noob in Gauntlet made a lot mistakes specially when keeping only few citis to get 'cheap' science/policies and waiting until half the game to start expanding, T250 was too late (YES, quick games only have 330 turns :wallbash:) or getting too much tourism, almost won by cultural. I needed to gift the AI some cities filled with GWs.

offtopic: my game got stucked when after planting a new city, filling it with GWs and gifting it to the AI because I didnt put something (building or unit) in the city's queue. The 'Next turn' button didnt appear, only the one asking me to order a new job in a city I dont own right now. Bug??

Anyways I learned a lot even this game were time consuming managing that amount of cities and workers, never got that before.

@Memoryjar, just curious to know, i can understand you hide some AI civilizations in your victory screenshot since you posted it while the gauntlet was still ongoing, but.... why did you hide your own civilization simbol in the domination square??

Well, maybe i'll be sending the game, someone must the the last, maybe i get the woodensword trophy :hatsoff:

That's a known bug. If you gift a newly acquired city without selecting something to build, it will break your game. Same with annexed cities.
 
No offense, it's not how I play gauntlets. I use to share everything as I use tips which people share. :D

Nice, I really appreciate those tips and thoughts you and other players posted here. They could be very helpful for me if I would read them before or during playing the game. Anyways they are nice lessons to keep in mind.

At first glance, while reading gauntlet rules and Williams uniques thought it could be very useful his UA, so it reforced in my mind the idea to play a peaceful and little empire during the first part of the game. Did anyone really used the UA of the Neetherlands during the game (I mean an effective use of the UA)? its useless due the chieftain level? its a question of luck/bad-luck with resources? or perhaps its my playing style?
 
Nice, I really appreciate those tips and thoughts you and other players posted here. They could be very helpful for me if I would read them before or during playing the game. Anyways they are nice lessons to keep in mind.

At first glance, while reading gauntlet rules and Williams uniques thought it could be very useful his UA, so it reforced in my mind the idea to play a peaceful and little empire during the first part of the game. Did anyone really used the UA of the Neetherlands during the game (I mean an effective use of the UA)? its useless due the chieftain level? its a question of luck/bad-luck with resources? or perhaps its my playing style?

The extra happiness isn't completely useless if you go for max growth fast science in the early game. I played peaceful until XCOM, and traded away my resources for gpt. If you don't take happiness beliefs and de-prioritize happiness buildings, it comes in handy. But after World's Fair it's kind of useless.

I'm up to t257 or so in my game, and it's pretty clear I'm not going to make the deadline. I'm at 153 cities, with 10 left to plant, and 13 CS I'll capture, for a total of 176 or so. (I might be underestimating)

Next policy is like 80k away, so focusing on early science to maximize culture was *definitely* the way to go. You basically don't get any policies after expansion.

I forgot to get the happiness from water mills/hospitals/medical labs policy until just now, and my happiness went from like 80 to 290. :p

I'm still going to finish this for submission in the HOF, but so much for the gauntlet. I probably need a week to finish it, given how few hours I can play per day. Oh well.
 
Did anyone really used the UA of the Neetherlands during the game (I mean an effective use of the UA)? its useless due the chieftain level? its a question of luck/bad-luck with resources? or perhaps its my playing style?

Its useless due the chieftain level, indeed. AI don't have gold after T50, so when you really need money and happiness, you have a lot of happiness and no money.

I like Dutch UA, but on low level, it's really a non-UA.
 
Useless indeed. At t260, with 158 cities, I'm at 325 happiness, and I'm not even bothering to build coliseums. :p

My first-wave expansion cities are just now finally switching over to gold production, so the turns should get faster soon, but I still have 13 CS to capture. (I'm waiting a few more turns to get one more cycle of tribute, which will buy 8 medical labs)

And I have 10 more settlers to plant, so I'll be babysitting 23 cities until t300 probably. Also, every action is slow now. Rush-buying is lagging. Production selection is laggy. Unit selection is laggy. I can't wait to ditch all my workers. (Should be done with them by t280)

All I can say is... never again!!

EDIT: I've noticed a few quirks during this playthrough that are basically just broken features. For example, I can get 400+ gold in tribute for 15 influence. I can buy more than 15 influence for 250 gold... lol.
 
... For example, I can get 400+ gold in tribute for 15 influence. I can buy more than 15 influence for 250 gold... lol.

Yep, I was thinkig about it when I did and thought there were more factors that I wasnt taking into account. Anyways, if you do you loose any quests for that CS, so it may be useful at the end of the game when you get less quests. Sadly, at the end of the game you get the worst gold/influence ratio. The quests from CS averages 40 influence, losing only one for a net income of lets say 200 gold its not a big profit. Since it could be considered an exploid its not, IMHO, a big hole in the game.
 
Yep, I was thinkig about it when I did and thought there were more factors that I wasnt taking into account. Anyways, if you do you loose any quests for that CS, so it may be useful at the end of the game when you get less quests. Sadly, at the end of the game you get the worst gold/influence ratio. The quests from CS averages 40 influence, losing only one for a net income of lets say 200 gold its not a big profit. Since it could be considered an exploid its not, IMHO, a big hole in the game.

Also, stealing a worker is 50 influence, gold is 15 influence. A worker is 220 gold with Mercantilism/Big Ben. So if I'm getting 400 gold in tribute for 15 influence, stealing a worker should be like 10 influence tops. Even without Big Ben, a worker on Quick has a base price less than the money I'm stealing.

EDIT: Update, I'm at 269, finally captured all non-maritime CS, and just planted the last city. (On a one-tile island I forgot about)

Total # of cities is ~182. I still have about 100 medical labs to buy, but at 8k gpt that won't take long. Should be done with tile improvements by t280. Then it's just a waiting game. Turns are ridiculously long now. I have time to make a sandwich while I wait. :p

I'm hoping deleting all the workers will help. I'm down to 100 or so left, (from 200), and 100 of my cities have their final builds queued. Trying desperately to finish!

My happiness is at 400... :p
 
Grats guys! I'll finish eventually. :lol:

Edit: or not... :( :(

I can't load the last save game I made or any of the autosaves since t270. Nooooooo!

That's 30 hours+ (mostly spent waiting for next turn) down the drain. :(

I'll keep trying, maybe I can get lucky. Apparently 185 cities is more than my computer can load....

Edit: Ok, t279 autosave loaded this time. Going back to try the actual save. Fourth try's the charm?
 
Yes! 5th try loaded. Saves me the trouble of autosave/crash report business. I may finish! :)

Edit: home stretch! 20 turns left, and the only actions I'm taking now are rush-buying stadiums for the fun of it. (and extra culture to squeeze one more policy in)

Peak numbers so far:
46000 beakers/turn
16000 gold/turn
1300 excess happiness
1500 faith/turn
Next social policy: 120000 culture

Say what? :lol:

Despite all my miscues, I might actually post a competitive HOF entry with this game. By micromanaging tiles, I've been able to boost growth in my smaller cities at the expense of my larger ones. But, when a city needs 100 food to grow, it's a no-brainer to give it tiles from a city that needs 300 food to grow. It's tedious but it helps. Especially because the city AI is stupid and will assign sea tiles (1 food) to inland cities, preventing coastal cities from getting 2 food from them.

1300 excess happiness!? If I bought more pagodas and stadiums it could have been 1500. Do ya think maybe I should have taken food beliefs?!?

Sigh. :lol:

Chieftain is such a different game.
 
Well, it wasn't a record-breaking finish, but considering I started World's Fair 40 turns late, conquered the CS 80 turns late, and didn't take food beliefs, I did ok. :p

+2food from shrines/temples alone should, over the course of a game, add at least 1000 pts. But I sure as heck ain't doing this map again! And, if we ever do a Time victory gauntlet again, it probably won't be on chieftain, so the right set of beliefs will be totally different.. (and hopefully, on a smaller map, which changes things too)


Spoiler :
 
I "only" submitted two games last month, 1 for each gauntlet, because I have been totally into time victory games of late.

Looking back at old time victory gauntlets, I saw this one at the top of the time victory HoF page and decided to give it a go.

Time victories engender so much discussion that it was awesome to see the dispensed wisdom and experiences of Cromagnus, fils, Acken, vadalaz, memoryjar, croccivfanatic, and other great players.

The challenge of course is to come up with your own original strategy to go further than the giants that you are standing on the shoulders of.

I will make a few long posts here to recount my strategy and experiences.

In this first post, I will talk about my first failed idea -- trying continents map setting within Frontier instead of pangaea.

In a Time Victory, the most important criterion for a high score is population, which corresponds almost directly with number of cities. Population dwarfs every other score source, so to achieve the highest score, you must top or at least come close to matching the number of cities placed by other players. This gauntlet has a Standard map size on an already large Frontier map!! Acken's gold medal game had about 165 cities by his estimate, while memoryjar's silver medal game and someone else pushed 200 cities. With such a wide variance, I knew that if I could get closer to 200 cities with a sound overall strategy, I could best Acken's score.

In the Frontier map settings, I agreed with memoryjar's take-- hot, wet, low sea level is the way to go. Because the Netherlands has the special Polder unique improvement which gives a food, production AND gold boost to Flood Plains and Marsh tiles, fils and some others seemed to think that hot and dry is best to get the most desert for the most flood plains tile chance. The problem with "dry" is that it means more blank desert and hills with no forest/jungle. In a Time Victory, population is the triumphant consideration, so the more food production on the map, the better. Hot and wet will give more jungle/forests on hills, and perhaps more rivers (though that I am not sure of). Also, I am pretty sure wet should give more marsh tiles than dry. Memoryjar also put in Morocco and Arabia as AI civs to maximize "desert start" areas. I went with Morocco, but usually don't like Arabia, which can poach wonders, so stayed clear of them. In my win, I still got plenty of flood plains and had a small number of marshes with hot and wet settings.

Within the Frontier map opening settings, you can choose pangaea or continents. I mistakenly thought continents would give me a better chance at getting more land mass and more tiny islands around the whole map. I waited for a good desert flood plains start and played up until Satellites, which goes pretty quickly on Chieftain. Turns out I was mistaken. Choosing continents over pangaea within Frontier gave me almost no tiny islands and very little settlable land (roughly 150+ cities worth by estimate). It also hurts a lot with continents that you are far from many AI civs to declare early war to reduce wonder competition and out of touch with many city states and their ally bonuses for a long time. Choosing pangaea within Frontier is by far the best option.

So after giving up the first serious attempt with continents, I chose pangaea within Frontier and waited for a good start.

My next post will describe my main strategy considerations.
 
To best the scores of Ackens and the others, I mainly needed more cities and population, while having as many Future Techs and Great Works at the end as I could as auxiliary score padders.

Here were my considerations:

1) Meta-strategies:

A Time game is such a different beast from other victories that careful play in the beginning is an enormous consideration, especially on a Standard size map. The turn times with 150-200 cities become ridiculously long late game, as I learned from posts in this gauntlet forum and in my own ridiculous Deity Marathon huge tiny island map effort a couple years back. Once you start the "big expansion", there is no turning back. Therefore, I decided in this game to take the early game slow and thoughtfully. On Quick, it is easy to blitz through the early game-- but one mental lapse means choosing the wrong pantheon or such, forgetting to target a key early wonder, or pushing next turn so much through a flawed exploration pattern to miss an AI civ and delay founding the World Congress. I have played enough games I have had to abandon because of these types of mistakes :) Did not want to make these common quick game errors that I would regret in turn 250 of a monster time commitment game, so I voluntarily pulled myself away from the game and the computer every 40 -50 turns in the early game, so i could reassess the current game state thoughtfully when getting back to the game before pushing forward. 50 turns is a lot of progress on Quick so reasonable to take a break with, but not too much progress that I would let errant play get out of hand.

My other meta strategy was to NOT shut off the game or computer once the big expansion started. From posts here and my Deity Huge experience, loading such massive saves can be a huge problem, so i did not want to have to load a 150-200 city game save if I could help it. This proved prescient as I returned to my PC one time to find the dreaded "Steam update has loaded" crash had occurred at around T265 or so. For whatever reason, with my Windows 10 PC, whenever Steam pushes an update, it tanks the game in progress on my PC at the time. When I tried to load the latest Autosave, it would not load. Nor would it load the previous few turns autosave or regular backup saves. I had to go back several turns more to find a save that would actually load, so I did have to replay like 6-8 turns. Had no choice, and will send a crash report in on this. But the turns were simply "grow, set build queue" at that point, so no big deal to replicate exactly. Takeaway-- if you are trying this gauntlet, use a high-end computer, and leave the game running if you can after your big expansion. You may never be able to load late game saves.

2) Growth/Expansion

The main source of debate in Time Victory games is expansion strategy. Do you (a) play a small 4-6 city science-focused game early until as early a maxed-out culture World's Fair as you can manage, do you (b) expand out to 8-12 cities early, which can slow science and culture acquisition a bit and perhaps lead to a less effective Worlds Fair or later big expansion, or do you (c) just expand as big as possible as fast as possible?

I think (c) is clearly the worst choice, as truly constant expansion wreaks havoc on optimum tech researching, obtaining happiness/growth policies asap, and building the national wonders. As Cromagnus, Acken and others posited here, a controlled city count early leading to early as possible World's Fair and mega-expansion is the way to go.

After reading the posts in this gauntlet forum, my main takeaway was that everyone went way too small an empire in their science-focused starts. Cromagnus went 4 cities, and Acken 5 cities early on for example. On Chieftain?? I have found that on Chieftain level, optimal science games happen with a minimum of 8 cities. Happiness is so little an early game concern that 8-10 cities is always the goal.

I wanted to get 8-12 efficient cities up as soon as possible. This is doable on Chieftain because happiness is not a big issue early. It has many benefits. You can play a "normal" Science game pretty much with 8-12 cities instead of 4-6, thus juicing up midgame science. Also, you have more cities building all the key early-midgame wonders; with fewer cities, build queues are more crowded. More early cities pumps out more units for eventual conquest, and ultimately more workers and settlers for the eventual big expansion.

My planned method to get to 8-12 cities as soon as possible? Build early archers to conquer the 1-3 nearest AI capitals and go pure Liberty early on.

3) Social Policies

Whereas the conventional wisdom for the gauntlet seemed to have been to go a Liberty/Tradition mix early (get the free Settler in Liberty, then pound Tradition). I thought that pure Liberty early was the way to go. And also, not just rushing to the free Settler. In a Time game where you want to get as many Social policies as possible for happiness, going to Representation (future cities built raise social policy requirements 33% less than normal) before going for Collective Rule (free Settler and increased Stettler production in capital) is pretty key in my view.

In my first abandoned game, I had established a good policy timing. Research Archery first and build/buy/hutupgrade 4-5 archers as soon as possible. Send those out to conquer nearby capitals with the initial warrior and scouts. Going - Liberty opener, Citizenship (free worker), Representation, then down the left side of Liberty to Collective rule means a later Collective rule, but this lets your capital go scouts, archers, monument, granary, Great Library, National College before cranking out settlers! Your very early free worker upgrades the key capital tiles. Works fabulously!! Meanwhile, your archers (which you can upgrade to composite bowmen with early accumulated gold soon by beelining Construction) can take out a nearby 2-3 cities you can puppet while building the National College, so your growth is not really slowed much.

In my first abandoned game I had found that policy acquisition slows a lot with many early cities, so it was impossible to finish Tradition in a reasonable time to get the free aqueducts/growth boost. That was a nonprioroty as you could research engineering and build aqueducts in buff early cities much faster than waiting on finishing Tradition, so finishing Tradition is a low priority.

I held off on finishing Liberty with Meritocracy as it was unneeded early. Went Tradition opener, Oligarchy as I thought i could hit the right side a bit faster than I actually was able to, then Aristocracy for the early Wonder push. I filled out a bit more of Tradition before hitting Patronage opener (for vitally needed Forbidden Palace) Rationalism opener/Secularism (for science) , Piety opener at some point in this mix (faster shrine/temples and failed attempt to get Great Mosque), finishing Liberty (Meritocracy needed), Monarchy in Tradition (for needed happiness) and then I was at Ideology I think.

I was up against the happiness threshold at many points with 10 fast growing cities and I really needed Forbidden Palace for happiness and to pass Culture Heritage Sites on the first World Congress vote, so happiness informed my Social Policy order after that initial rush into most of Liberty and then the first 4 Tradition policies.

Ideology

Freedom is a clear winner over Order. At Chieftain, you can start big expansion early and have time to grow well, so the Order policy starting new cities with extra population does not help all that much. Civil Society in Freedom cutting food requirements for specialists translates to + 5 population per city by Cromagnus' old estimates, so at 200 or so cities, that trumps anything Order has to offer.

After hitting the free Civil Society and Avant Garde (increased GP production) in Freedom, went to the monster happiness policy in Freedom next which solved my happiness issues until the giant expansion. After that, opened Commerce for Big Ben to buy Research Labs asap when Plastic teched, and then went Aesthetics all the way to Flourishing of the Arts, which gives +33% culture to cities with Great Wonders (as all 10 of mine did) Absolutely key to a maxed out World's Fair.

So, I did things a little differently than in a normal science focused game (did not finish Tradition until way way late during Worlds Fair, did not pursue Rationalism past Secularism until Worlds Fair) but going for the growth (Liberty, happiness policies in various trees, Piety opener for Shrines/Temples with feed the world), culture (early Representation, Patronage opener for Forbidden Palace to help pass Cultural Heritage Sites, Aesthetics) and enough Science to stay fast (all the growth policies, Rationalism opener and Secularism, Commerce opener for Big Ben to speed Research Labs) seemed to work out well as far as I am concerned.

During the World's Fair, I was pumping out Social Policies every 3 turns or so. I made sure to go down Piety to a Reformation belief Glory of God to be able to buy Great Writers with faith before the World's Fair ended. With those bought Great Writers and all the Great Writers from early Writer's Guild and free GWs from finishing Liberty and Leaning Tower of Pisa, I literally got EVERY possible happiness policy possible before the World's Fair ended. After mega-expansion, I was only able to get 4 more policies (1 by finishing International Games) which I used 2 on to finish Exploration and find the hidden antiquity sites.

4) Religion

As Acken postulated, happiness beliefs are NOT needed, and seemed to be a common mistake among the original gauntlet entrants. Early shrines, faith huts. and a Religious city state friendship/alliance or two is enough to get a religion early enough to matter without too much difficulty. You will be swimming in happiness at game end on Chieftain. (700+ at the very end for me)

Fertility Rites as a pantheon, Tithe as Founder belief (Gold that can buy food buildings later), Feed the World as belief 1, Swords into Plowshares as belief 2, and reliquary for more Great People as extra belief are all solid and optimal I think in this gauntlet. Reformation belief to buy Great Writers with faith before World's Fair ends and any type of great person you want later also a key.

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Have to run for now. Will discuss tech order, build orders, wonders, and other game specifics for my entry here soon.
 
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