G-Minor XLVII

[vexing]

Incense and gold are the most common desert resources, but salt isn't uncommon.

salt in the desert isn't nearly as useful

It is possible, it would just take an absurd amount of luck. In my most recent attempt I finished it on 51 (soooo close) on the desert. I popped Calendar from a ruin, and had 3 wheat, so I used 3 gold/silver to push out GL quickly.

did you get an early culture ruin? did you buy a granary? before reading your post i was just thinking a 3 fp wheat start and some other luck should be enough to do it

 

[TyfoonTurk]

is anybody considering a heavy jungle start?

 

[Xger]

salt in the desert isn't nearly as useful



did you get an early culture ruin? did you buy a granary? before reading your post i was just thinking a 3 fp wheat start and some other luck should be enough to do it

It was 2 plains wheat (+1 marsh were only non-desert non-mountain) tiles, 2 gold 1 silver and 1 FP wheat. IIRC I had a culture ruin a pop ruin and the aforementioned calendar one. I hard built the granary as I was 1-2 turns away from being able to buy a pyramid. Granary finished same turn as writing and I jumped into GL and finished it relatively quickly, followed by NC.

is anybody considering a heavy jungle start?

I would guess that growth and production would be too stymied for a heavy jungle start to work.

 

[vexing]

is anybody considering a heavy jungle start?

i think desert is necessary for sub 200. you're going to have a hard time getting 3 scientists with faith in any other setting, whereas with a full desert start it's possible to get 4.

 

[Salomo]

is anybody considering a heavy jungle start?

I tried it, but didn't finish it. The problem with my location was that I was just on one end of the map and everybody else on the other, giving me little chance to find CS and spread religion. To get my prophets and missionaries to the AIs and CS, I had to cross half a map full of barbarians.

A key difference that applies to probably all jungle starts was production: Whereas with desert start after Petra I could build anything I wanted in hardly any time, despite having a marble plains nearby I struggled to even get the stuff I needed in the jungle.

The culture gained from jungle via religion was not worth it. It gave a boost in the beginning, but the lower production made it close to even with desert towards the last third. It didn't really seem to give much of an advantage, except that popping an early culture ruin is perhaps not so important. This might be different if somehow you managed to get decent production for woders going despite the jungle.

One thing that really suprised me was the lack of money. This was probably partially related to not being able to spread religion on the map I had. I do believe though, that a large factor also was that I couldn't easily build bank, stock exchange and wonders that would have increased my gpt. This allowed me to have only very few RAs throughout the game, slowing my research down despite the jungle beakers.

The faith problem also relates to the lack of production. However, I do think you can get enough for two scientists if you have a couple of religious CS as friends.

What suprised me was population. I had 4 bananas and 2 citrus in my city circle and my early pop was much better than in a desert start. However, by the last third of the game, I was behind compared to what I would usually have from a solid desert start with petra.

In summary I think jungle may be a close second best. But desert certainly seemed better.

 

[Neuro]

How necessary is Temple of Artemis for a good run? I never got that DLC, wondering if I really need it.

 

[vexing]

How necessary is Temple of Artemis for a good run? I never got that DLC, wondering if I really need it.

it's not needed but helps... getting lucky with wltkd or maritimes could be better.
it does fit in nicely post NC if you're going for early theology. the mausoleum is good too, and hopefully a few AI will at least waste time building statue of zeus

 

[beezany]

salt in the desert isn't nearly as useful

Yeah, I discovered that in my last game (unrelated to this gauntlet). Desert salt is weak until Petra, and afterward it's only as good as an irrigated hill. You can sometimes get non-desert salt nearby, but it's not worth holding out for.

My second attempt at this gauntlet had about 20% jungle, enough for a nice science boost without totally dragging down my production, plus I had salt to help get things off the ground. It was still very weak in the late game, though, with slower growth, production, and faith than a Petra OCC.

 

[mlund]

Had a run that made Globalization at 200. My lack of late-era practice really hurt, though. I totally thought the UN was a project and squandered Great Engineers so I didn't have any around to slam the build home. Instead I stared at a 15 turn build time with no coal for a factory and no wind-mill and sighed and resigned.

Bulbing and timing Rationalism Finisher worked well, though. My only issue was trying to push through. I think I hit an overflow buffer. I had 1 turn to Peniceilin and bulbed again, to no effect. I also ended turn without switching to Oxford, which took two turns. So I waited and extra 1-2 for Globalization due to that.

My only complaints were a lack of early Maritime allies, no Culture Ruins until my 3rd policy, and my tech-ruin missing the proper part of the tree. I guess having two riverside plains wheat and desert salt would've been better reverse: land-locked plains salt and flood plains instead. An oasis instead of that lake probably would've helped too.

Still, it was a really good opening overall. I almost decided to buy a Library and hold off the Great Library finish for Theology itself, but the math looked like I couldn't crack turn 51 regardless. If I'd been able to barb-camp-ally a Maritime City State really early though ... hah, dream a little dream I guess.

- Marty Lund

 

[TyfoonTurk]

getting to theology at t50 can be done with building/buying pyramid and library as soon as possible and using the GL for theology. (ofcourse you need some luck with pop and/or tech huts)



the second GP can then be used to GE-rush Petra.

 

[HideInLight]

I got to Theology at T-49 in one game with a solid desert start with 3 fp wheat, so yea, it is possible. But I found El Dorado as the first, a culture ruin and a population ruin, so a lot of luck was needed for it. Tried several times, managed only once.

Anyway, butchered the game later on as I wasnt able to get more than 1 RA partner :/ So in the end it was only my 2nd best game.

 

[Xger]

I got to Theology at T-49 in one game with a solid desert start with 3 fp wheat, so yea, it is possible. But I found El Dorado as the first, a culture ruin and a population ruin, so a lot of luck was needed for it. Tried several times, managed only once.

Anyway, butchered the game later on as I wasnt able to get more than 1 RA partner :/ So in the end it was only my 2nd best game.

Ew, the production on that looks terrible.

I think this is a very luck based gauntlet, the pre-51 theology shows that further.

 

[Jinbe]

I got to Theology at T-49 in one game with a solid desert start with 3 fp wheat, so yea, it is possible. But I found El Dorado as the first, a culture ruin and a population ruin, so a lot of luck was needed for it. Tried several times, managed only once.

Anyway, butchered the game later on as I wasnt able to get more than 1 RA partner :/ So in the end it was only my 2nd best game.

El Dorado makes thing much easier I am guessing you brought the pyramid and library asap once they are available? Then GL Theology?

 

[HideInLight]

Ew, the production on that looks terrible.

I think this is a very luck based gauntlet, the pre-51 theology shows that further.

Yea but since I found El Dorado, I didnt need that much early production. And later on it was all right.


Well I am afraid it will always be a bit like that with Pacal and The Long Count.

 

[HideInLight]

El Dorado makes thing much easier I am guessing you brought the pyramid and library asap once they are available? Then GL Theology?

Yea, like that.

 

[vexing]

I think this is a very luck based gauntlet, the pre-51 theology shows that further.

unfortunately it seems like all non domination g+k gauntlets are going to be about rolling for a strong desert start. don't blame me, i tried to show the devs how overpowered petra was

 

[HideInLight]

Just had my best start so far: mountain, riverside dessert hill, 3 flood plains wheat, 2 salts, marble, silver, 2 wines and several dessert hills, 1/2 of them farmable.

Later on I made some mistakes though, so not my best again. I wish I could replay this start again...

 

[Mesix]

I think the luck factor has more to do with huts than anything else. Rerolling for desert aside, the fact that the earliest times are dependent on getting favorable huts is unfortunate. The earliest time to Theology is somewhat dependent on getting one or more free techs and/or having extra population pop from huts.

 

[Xger]

unfortunately it seems like all non domination g+k gauntlets are going to be about rolling for a strong desert start. don't blame me, i tried to show the devs how overpowered petra was

I think the luck factor has more to do with huts than anything else. Rerolling for desert aside, the fact that the earliest times are dependent on getting favorable huts is unfortunate. The earliest time to Theology is somewhat dependent on getting one or more free techs and/or having extra population pop from huts.

I think Mesix hit it spot on. I have had some solid starting positions but when it takes me 20 turns to find 3 ruins which are gold, barb locs and a map, it means it's time to scrap it.

 

[vexing]

right. so you need to reroll 20 times to hit a good desert start, then if you don't hit a culture ruin you still need to scrap it.