G-Minor XLVII

First try I had turn 237, had a wonderful start place but screwed it up :(
Forgot to do RA's...
I had coal, aluminum and El Dorado...
Though I had bad luck with the ancient ruins, not giving me much useful.

Going for another try, perhaps there is a chance for a close medal.
 
Thanks vexing and BWS for the tips, I got a desert mountain start, with 4 flood plains, 3 salt (2 on desert and one on a forested grasslands), an oasis and lots of desert hills, but only two with irrigation, and thought it was a good start. The game didn't go as well though, as I'm very far from the turn targets other people got. Another thing, I saw people saying that a 700 bpt is good, and I'm wondering when should that be reached, and how. Also I'd like some tips on SP choosing. Sorry If I'm asking too much, but I'm a more casual player and just recently started to want to get more competitive, and this is the first gauntlet I'm trying. I would really appreciate any help. Thanks!

Ok summary of some basic strategy for this gauntlet:

1. Good start - mountain is a must, desert hills ideally with an oasis or river along, river + flood plains, salt is very good, wheat and marble are good bonuses but not necessary.

2. Early focus on good scouting and growth.
Decent early build orders are
a) scout, scout, pyramid, granary (sometimes if you are lucky you can buy one of those) great library, nat. college, temple of artemis, petra, hanging gardens
b) scout, monument, + the same
And maybe get the unique archer and another scout sometimes around T-50 or so, as you will need to destroy several barb. camps at that point.

3. Social policies - definately start with Tradition, get to landed elite asap, and also complete tradition asap. Then pick Patronage, then it depends on your strategy and luck, but either get Aesthetics and then Rationalism + continue left side of it. Or skip Aesthetics if you dont have enough culture for it, but its definately way better to have it early on. After finishing left side of rationalism, get Order and Planned economy for the +25% science from factories. Then if your culture is really strong, you can go for the science from allied CSs, but usually your culture wont be strong enough for it so just finish rationalism - plan way ahead here so that you finish it when you are ready for it - about 10-12 turns after finishing Plastics (so that you have 8 turns time for maximized science + 2-4 turns bulbing)

4. Religion - If you play heavy desert start, definately go for desert folklore first. If you play non desert or only partial desert start, go for Fertility rites. Then go for either Tithe or Pilgrimage (I like the latter more, but its tougher to manage money then) and Swords into plowshares. Then I am not sure, I used to go for Religious community, but since production isnt too important here, it may be better to go for either Feed the world for little extra food or the one with +2 faith for each wonder bonus.

5. Techs
As pretty much always in non-domination games, go for pottery, writing. Then specifically for this gauntlet, go for quick Theology to start Long count asap. You need to get your first great person at T-62 if you go for this strategy. Or you might want to rush for currency and get Petra ultra fast, but I think the Theo strategy is slightly superior here. After that, rush for Civil service, then Education. Then go for Astronomy to get the Observatory Then beeline Scientific theory, then Plastics, then Globalization and thats it. You can decide which particular routes you take while beelining to get to some wonders earlier than to others, it depends on your particular game. Also, use a GS or maybe even oxford for Plasics if you can afford it.

6. Gameplay
It is really important to find as many ruins early on as possible. Also find AIs asap and as many CSs as possible too. You especially want to get maritime allies asap, but cultural are pretty important too and religious come in handy as well.

Also, buy a worker asap, usually with your 200g saved up, you can get a loan of 112 for 5gpt and buy your worker somewhere between turns 18-24 or so.

When you meet a CS, always pledge to protect them, it will slowly get you to 10 influence for free. Try to fullfill quests as soon as you can.

Steal from a CS or if possible buy another worker soon too, say prior to turn 45.

Try to have good diplomacy too, ideally you should be friends with everyone. Realistically this is almost impossible though, but you should have about 3 DoFs prior to getting education.

After getting education, rush buy University and fill the scientists slots. Then sign your first wave or RAs as soon as you can. Dont be afraid to get a loan to do so.

Everytime you get to a new science building, always rush buy it and fill it with scientists.

Also, get Oracle the same turn as finishing Astronomy to insta open Rationalism. And ideally get your 1st rationalism policy on the exact same turn too. Usually you wont manage that good, but you should definately get it within next 3-5 turns.

Then just keep scouting, keep getting Great Scientists and plan for the endgame. When you get to Plastics and get your Research lab, fill all specialists slots and production to research to maximize science. Then wait 8 turns, then bulb all your GSs. You should have about 5-6 of them for the final bulb. Also, your science in those 8 turns should be 600+bpt. You can probably manage even with like 550 with some RAs help. You need to try yourself to see.

7. Some turns to know if you doing good (assuming you wanna get a sub T-200 game):
NC between T-47 - T-55
Civil Service T-70 - T-78
Education T-80 - T-88
Astronomy T-96 - T-104
Sci. theory T-139 - T-146
Plastics before T-182

Hope it will help. Also you might want to check saved games from similar scenarios other people submitted, it might help too.
 
Hidelight, if I read your strategy I think I had a winner map :cries:

El Dorado very quickly so I could manage to buy the pyramid and granary and start working GE asap.
Mistake 1: Didn't go asap to LE.
I had very strong culture.
Mistake 2: Little too late at Astronomy.
Mistake 3: Didn't do a protect CS.
Biggest mistake: Didn't do any RA's.
Why wait 8 turns?
Does GS bulb the last 8 turns of science? I had almost 700 breakers at turn 180.
 
Ok summary of some basic strategy for this gauntlet:

1. Good start - mountain is a must, desert hills ideally with an oasis or river along, river + flood plains, salt is very good, wheat and marble are good bonuses but not necessary.

2. Early focus on good scouting and growth.
Decent early build orders are
a) scout, scout, pyramid, granary (sometimes if you are lucky you can buy one of those) great library, nat. college, temple of artemis, petra, hanging gardens
b) scout, monument, + the same
And maybe get the unique archer and another scout sometimes around T-50 or so, as you will need to destroy several barb. camps at that point.

3. Social policies - definately start with Tradition, get to landed elite asap, and also complete tradition asap. Then pick Patronage, then it depends on your strategy and luck, but either get Aesthetics and then Rationalism + continue left side of it. Or skip Aesthetics if you dont have enough culture for it, but its definately way better to have it early on. After finishing left side of rationalism, get Order and Planned economy for the +25% science from factories. Then if your culture is really strong, you can go for the science from allied CSs, but usually your culture wont be strong enough for it so just finish rationalism - plan way ahead here so that you finish it when you are ready for it - about 10-12 turns after finishing Plastics (so that you have 8 turns time for maximized science + 2-4 turns bulbing)

4. Religion - If you play heavy desert start, definately go for desert folklore first. If you play non desert or only partial desert start, go for Fertility rites. Then go for either Tithe or Pilgrimage (I like the latter more, but its tougher to manage money then) and Swords into plowshares. Then I am not sure, I used to go for Religious community, but since production isnt too important here, it may be better to go for either Feed the world for little extra food or the one with +2 faith for each wonder bonus.

5. Techs
As pretty much always in non-domination games, go for pottery, writing. Then specifically for this gauntlet, go for quick Theology to start Long count asap. You need to get your first great person at T-62 if you go for this strategy. Or you might want to rush for currency and get Petra ultra fast, but I think the Theo strategy is slightly superior here. After that, rush for Civil service, then Education. Then go for Astronomy to get the Observatory Then beeline Scientific theory, then Plastics, then Globalization and thats it. You can decide which particular routes you take while beelining to get to some wonders earlier than to others, it depends on your particular game. Also, use a GS or maybe even oxford for Plasics if you can afford it.

6. Gameplay
It is really important to find as many ruins early on as possible. Also find AIs asap and as many CSs as possible too. You especially want to get maritime allies asap, but cultural are pretty important too and religious come in handy as well.

Also, buy a worker asap, usually with your 200g saved up, you can get a loan of 112 for 5gpt and buy your worker somewhere between turns 18-24 or so.

When you meet a CS, always pledge to protect them, it will slowly get you to 10 influence for free. Try to fullfill quests as soon as you can.

Steal from a CS or if possible buy another worker soon too, say prior to turn 45.

Try to have good diplomacy too, ideally you should be friends with everyone. Realistically this is almost impossible though, but you should have about 3 DoFs prior to getting education.

After getting education, rush buy University and fill the scientists slots. Then sign your first wave or RAs as soon as you can. Dont be afraid to get a loan to do so.

Everytime you get to a new science building, always rush buy it and fill it with scientists.

Also, get Oracle the same turn as finishing Astronomy to insta open Rationalism. And ideally get your 1st rationalism policy on the exact same turn too. Usually you wont manage that good, but you should definately get it within next 3-5 turns.

Then just keep scouting, keep getting Great Scientists and plan for the endgame. When you get to Plastics and get your Research lab, fill all specialists slots and production to research to maximize science. Then wait 8 turns, then bulb all your GSs. You should have about 5-6 of them for the final bulb. Also, your science in those 8 turns should be 600+bpt. You can probably manage even with like 550 with some RAs help. You need to try yourself to see.

7. Some turns to know if you doing good (assuming you wanna get a sub T-200 game):
NC between T-47 - T-55
Civil Service T-70 - T-78
Education T-80 - T-88
Astronomy T-96 - T-104
Sci. theory T-139 - T-146
Plastics before T-182

Hope it will help. Also you might want to check saved games from similar scenarios other people submitted, it might help too.

Nice summary! :p It pretty much cover everything needed to be said!
I would like to elaborate on some minor details now having completed a sub-200 game myself ;)

Starting location:
You NEED at least two 3 yield tiles (preferably more), such as wheat on flood plains, oasis(!), salt or deer in order to be competitive early on since no matter what you do you won't get a worker for the first 20 turns or so. That means more re-rolling and less forcing a game after you moved for like 3 turns. And of course Mountain and hills and river and desert and junk like that as discussed.

Ruins; I consider the following ESSENTIAL:
1 culture ruin
1 upgrade ruin
1 pop (2 will be best and very manageable to have)
some cash

An early culture ruin you can open tradition asap then take legalism for your monument, always go scout-scout for starting build. Taking legalism for monument here doesn't hurt (it actually helps to get to landed elite faster) since Petra will give your a free amphitheater anyway.
The upgrade ruin (preferably warrior to spear) in the first 20 or so turns will allow you to outrank everyone on demographics and be able to BULLY CS for CASH! Thus allowing you to get your first worker much earlier.
Population without a doubt is the best since it boost your science and also allow you have have more production, enough said.

Social Policies:
Just as HideInLight discussed, but it is actually very possible to open rationalism before touching patronage if you have either enough population for science, or taking oxford for Astronomy. I found that oxford for Astronomy very powerful (credits BWS :) ), although having enough cash to rush buy observatory only a few turns after university will be tricky, but manageable.
My game went: full tradition -> left side rationalism -> order for planned economy -> patronage until scholasticism -> finish rationalism.

RAs:
It is very manageable to DoFs everyone if you pick your opponents carefully, and of course you want SWEDEN! For a chance to get +10% gpp generation. I am friends with everyone is my latest game.
I found that a wave of 8 RAs that bring you to Plastics and 3 or 4 additional RAs for modern and atomic Techs will do.

Breakers:
I personally only plant 1 scientist so my breakers peak at around 550. I think if you have anything around 550-600 for bulbing with some RAs you will be fine.

My two cents.:goodjob:
 
Brilliant guide, HideInLight! That's exactly how I've been playing this. You'll also need a fair bit of luck and discipline to keep your city's growth on track for a sub-200 game. It's the discipline that I struggle with most. I get distracted with questing or barb hunting, then I go to look at my city and realize that the governor has been doing dumb things for the last 10 turns while I wasn't paying attention.

EDIT: Thanks for the additional tips, Jinbe. Great second post, and congrats on your quick win!
 
Hidelight, if I read your strategy I think I had a winner map :cries:

El Dorado very quickly so I could manage to buy the pyramid and granary and start working GE asap.
Mistake 1: Didn't go asap to LE.
I had very strong culture.
Mistake 2: Little too late at Astronomy.
Mistake 3: Didn't do a protect CS.
Biggest mistake: Didn't do any RA's.
Why wait 8 turns?
Does GS bulb the last 8 turns of science? I had almost 700 breakers at turn 180.

protect CS is not as a big deal if you manage to secure key CS with your cash :)
and if you bulb a scientist you get breakers equal to the sum of your last 8 turns of raw breakers output, RAs and other bulbs excluded I presume.
 
protect CS is not as a big deal if you manage to secure key CS with your cash :)
protect cs + aesthetics = friends all around... if you get lucky with a lot of culture CS this ends up really powerful.
 
Thanks vexing and BWS for the tips, I got a desert mountain start, with 4 flood plains, 3 salt (2 on desert and one on a forested grasslands), an oasis and lots of desert hills, but only two with irrigation, and thought it was a good start. The game didn't go as well though, as I'm very far from the turn targets other people got. Another thing, I saw people saying that a 700 bpt is good, and I'm wondering when should that be reached, and how. Also I'd like some tips on SP choosing. Sorry If I'm asking too much, but I'm a more casual player and just recently started to want to get more competitive, and this is the first gauntlet I'm trying. I would really appreciate any help. Thanks!

700 spt would be great, but for my game my max spt was around 660, and that was with 40 pop cap with everything (all sci buildings, all specialists, and producing sci) and 14-15 CS allies (scholar) and rationalism boosters.

you should aim for fast plastics (and buy lab immediately of course), and fill up all specialists immediately and produce sci too. Just max everything out, and after 8 turns you can start your GS bulbing anytime you want.

SP: full tradition - pat if needed - rationalism left 3 (getting rat opener and left 1 and 2 are really important for fast sci) - pat left 2 for scholar, or you get aesthetics too - order - order middle one (factory gives 25% bonus) - rat finisher to get 2 free techs after bulbing GS.
 
Nice summary! :p It pretty much cover everything needed to be said!
I would like to elaborate on some minor details now having completed a sub-200 game myself ;)

My two cents.:goodjob:

Both of your thread and HideInLight's summary are very detailed and helpful. I guess I should have done something like that after my game, but my report was too short. In my games, I did basically the same thing as you described. I did not have 3f tiles though. Also, using oxford to astro is what I should have considered too.

I won't do rerolling again but I find these strategy summaries really helpful in improving my own games.
 
Well, you only have limited amount of GS & freebies, so Astronomy is definitely out of the question for reasons Vexing mentioned above. The only question is - plastics or globalization. Maybe, with some heavy faith accumulation it is possible to bulb plastics with Oxford and still have enough GS for a final push. Got to test this, when i get the time.

As far as i know it's a good place to discuss strategy too ;). We do have a clear goal & settings in front of us, as opposed to the thread you referred to.

It is possible to Oxford plastics and make it to the end. I timed it out in my game (first real attempt at 239) and finished Oxford as I opened plastics, getting it for free. I then waiting the 8 turns full on science. Bulbed all and ending with 1 turn left (no leftover beakers) on the one before the last two (ecology maybe?). The following turn I finished rationalism. I was at the time about 100 faith from another scientist. I had played many thing sub optimally in that game.
 
why my submission dissapeared once i've uploaded it?

Are you looking under My Submitted Games in the HoF system?


Something I was wondering how others thought: are RA's even useful? My understanding is that it is based on the lower amount of science, and at Warlord the AI has terrible science rates. Not to mention I have gotten that stupid bug where you get a whole 1 beaker more times than I want to count.
 
I believe RA's are useful.
I tried again but at turn 170 I still hadn't Public School so I stopped.
No idea what I was doing wrong...
Except I didn't had fast the extra science from CS. I think this one is needed for a win.
So lots of culture early is needed.
 
I suspect that several people will tie at 193, given that you get a new cycle of Long Counts at 183, so you can take your final Great Scientist then.

RAs are definitely required to get to Plastics in time. I like using Oxford on Astro, it really helped my last game.
 
Just finished at turn 200 :-(

I had a nice start, moving my settler just 1 step and getting a culture ruin right away, and kept a good pace throughout the game, but goofed up at the very end of a loooong session: Turn 174 I got Plastics by building Oxford and accidentally allied a culture CS by just randomly gifting excess gold to the one I was lowest on. That would have brought my Rat finisher to arrive in turn 181, so I decided to sell my culture buildings to make it arrive on turn 184. Unfortunately, it turned out (after wasting a turn) that I can't sell my free culture buildings, which most of them were. So I declared war on one of the cultural CS.

And here is the dumb part: I actually saw that this way my Rat finisher would come at turn 183 and hoped that would be good enough :hammer2:

Turn 182 I bulbed, turn 183 I had 3 techs left and got my Maya Long Count scientist and my Rat finisher, turn 184 I got my last research agreement comming in. Had I just declared war on that second cultural CS as well, I could have made it all match so nicely to build UN turn 186 for a sub-200 finish :wallbash:

Stupid pacifist non-calculating me - and despite that a couple of AIs deemed me to be a warmonger after DoWing my ally for just a milisecond.
 
By the way, one thing that struck me as odd: I think in my whole game I got only one scientist from my city's GP production. I believe I got 2 from long count, 2 from faith, 1 from PT, 1 from that new wonder replacing the old free GP and 1 from my citys GP production.

If I try again, it will probably be without building national epic.
 
I suspect that several people will tie at 193, given that you get a new cycle of Long Counts at 183, so you can take your final Great Scientist then.

RAs are definitely required to get to Plastics in time. I like using Oxford on Astro, it really helped my last game.

Doesn't the beginning of a new cycle depend on when you got your first cycle?
 
Doesn't the beginning of a new cycle depend on when you got your first cycle?

Yes, but I'm assuming people got their first Great Person on turn 62, which is the third B'ak'tun I believe. I can't imagine anyone being fast enough to Theology to get it on whatever the second B'ak'tun is.

The next game I play, I should write down when the various B'ak'tuns end, so I can plan it better.
 
I started this thread in the strategy forum awhile back. It is incomplete, and only has turns for Standard and Quick speed, but should be a good guide for this Gauntlet.

On standard speed:
Turn 62
Turn 72
Turn 86
Turn 101
Turn 117
Turn 133
Turn 152
Turn 183
 
By the way, one thing that struck me as odd: I think in my whole game I got only one scientist from my city's GP production. I believe I got 2 from long count, 2 from faith, 1 from PT, 1 from that new wonder replacing the old free GP and 1 from my citys GP production.

If I try again, it will probably be without building national epic.

You can't get two of the same GP in the long count. So I presume you got two from the city.
 
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