Gauntlet Three

[BlueRenner]

Yeah. I considered waiting for Axes, but every instinct I have tells me that's too slow, and I'm getting too distracted. I'm really not sold on the 'offense' theory of this Gauntlet. I'm probably just going to continue my straight builder route.

After a couple days of playing Team Battleground maps of varying sorts, I think I'm going to stop and go back to my beloved Pangea. I'm finding it very hard to put down enough GP Cities.. to beat my last time, I'm going to need at least three. The relative abundance of seaborne bonuses on the Pangea map really helps for this.

- Bill

 

[Xevious]

I wasn't going to post until after I've had a chance to play a map all the way through, but I don't know if I'll have time to finish by the 24th, so I'll post a thought here and see what you all think.

I've been trying highlands maps using clustered peaks, thin peaks (for less mountains and hills, still plenty of them around), and small lakes.

This gives a HEAVY production map with LOTS of forest, and slows the AI down considerably. I had no trouble keeping up in score even without building any military. I haven't played long enough to see if I will be able to catch up in miltary fast enough yet, but on the quick game I started last night I've grabbed 3 religions so far (hinduism, judaism, and confucianism), lost out on buddihsm and christianity. I've built stonehenge (first build), oracle, and parthenon, and popped (believe it or not) 10 huts, scout from first one then bronze working, gold x 2, Wheel, gold x3, pottery, maps.

I'm only at 880BC, but I have 3 cities, 3 religions (2 in Delhi, 1 in Madras), 3 wonders, will have stone soon to build Chichen Itza, and have gotten 2 great prophets that both built shrines. I need to build a few more cities so I can get some military going (I have copper hooked up so I can build axes if I have to). Still have a bunch of forest I can chop.

I'm posting my turn log here if any wants to wade through it.

EDIT: BTW, I'm playing Gandhi vs Liz, Mao, and Washington at quick speed with no barbs.

 

[Gazaridis]

Pfft beaten by 10 minutes. Im doing what Xevious said, with Mao, finished in 1412 AD but sure I can do better. Got most of the wonders going before Modern Ages. Still not sure when a good time to stop teching and save money is, before Liberalism or after?

 

[Smirk]

If you start the obelisk before Stonehenge, you're allowed to finish it after Stonehenge.

I haven't found that to be true. What version did you last try this? IIRC my evidence was in 1.52 and the obelisk was removed and I even lost the production towards it. Thats the case even if you finish it the exact turn stonehenge would be finished and the city is higher in the quene.

 

[Mad Dog]

My current thoughts are as follows.

After trying both military and non military strats, I've come to the conclusion that playing Elizabeth (or possibly Quin) is superior to the military strat.

Essentially, the question is whether the initial military rush will beat the advantage of extra great artists.

I can usually bust out 9-11 GAs without the philosophical trait, and that's with only one main GP factory city. I reckon if I focus better on GPs, I can crank out at least an extra 5 GAs using lizzie, which is 60k culture on marathon or 20k per culture city. With cities towards the end popping around 500 culture/turn, that's a saving of around 40 turns. So the military strat must be able to gain you at least this much in terms of turns.

I don't think this will happen. If you get a good start with Lizzie, you can spawn out 3-4 settlers for new cities by the time you get bronze working and pottery (80 turns?), and you get to choose where to place the cities. Plus, you get the advantage of extra tech and religions from the other civs. Admittedly you do not have as much room to expand as you do after wiping out 2 opponents but this is less important in a culture game.

The axeman rush is something potentially viable I think, but you'd need some luck. Axemen cost a lot less than settlers, so you could still, in theory, chug out a few axemen and a settler+ worker or two before founding pottery, and I can believe the advantage in terms of expansion options would pay off. I doubt the issue mentioned with finishing pyramids in time is a problem; you won't be starting the 'mids until you have pottery and a few cities anyway (not the way I do things at least).

So, I'm going to continue with Lizzie (philosophical is the best trait here imo, followed by financial) on a culture map, using balanced, as this is the largest map. My first go finished in 1432, but I'm sure I can finish a lot quicker with better focus on GAs.

I'm curious when other people turn off science and max the culture slider. I always do it after getting liberalism - I have the pyramids to allow universal sufferage and representation so there's no need to chase them.

 

[BlueRenner]

Alright. Finished a game in 1226. I don't think we've quite bottomed out on this one yet.. I think I can trim a good 15-20 turns off this time with a few minor tweaks.

Me: Elizabeth, pure builder strat
Vs: Asoka, Washington, Mao

This was my standard game, played on a Balanced map, instead of a Pangea. Wow, this makes a LOT of difference. I highly reccomend anyone messing around with Team Battlegrounds or Pangea immediately switch to Balanced. Its incredibly helpful.

In this game I produced 15 great artists. The game would have been shortened by about 10 turns if I would have had one more... and I probably would have if the Indians hadn't started taking away farms on one of my GP cities. I didn't even know that could happen, when a city has 6 artists pumping out pure culture!

The game progressed as usual, with me grabbing all the early wonders, and then the Hanging Gardens off a Great Engineer. Asoka founded all the early religions, and I went Hindu right after I got Philosophy. (I find its better to wait before adopting a religion, as Asoka has a nasty habit of flipping around sometimes). There was some early tension when Mao adopted Confuciansim (from me!), but I sent in a few Hindu missionaries and he eventaully saw the light. After that, no one ever approached declaring war on me.

A HUGE problem is that I'm going too darn fast! By the time I stop researching tech (260 AD, here), my cottages haven't developed enough to produce enough cash, and then later the same problem occurs when that cash isn't converted into enough culture. I think on my next few games I have to REALLY focus on getting the populations of my 3 culture cities up as soon as possible, and have them all out working cottages at the first opportunity. There quite literally is no time for hammers.

This was also my first game where I had the option of going Mercantilist. On reflection, I don't think it made any real impact. However, it think it can tip the scales in my favor by a small amount, and is a good idea in principle.

I'm going to give it a rest for a few days and then try again. Like I said, I'm fairly certain I can beat this time.

- Bill

 

[Orca]

Did you have Marble ? I have stayed away from Balanced yet because i never seem to have Marble on this map.

I think phil trait is overrated. One Artist offers 12000 points but how many turns do some extra Artis save you ? - not too many if you run with ~1000 culture per city at game end , e.g. 6 extra Artists would save you ~24 turns.

 

[Big_Ben]

Marble is a problem for me on balanced as well. It is about 50/50 on stone on that map as well. I don't really like balanced for this gauntlet. If you get a good capital spot then it is hard to find spots with 2+ food resources to build your other cities without half the spaces in your city borders to be mountains and deserts.

Pangea is ok. I like doing the team battle grounds LvR and getting half the map to myself, you get all of the resources, but not sure if that is the way go. Highlands looks promising but is kind of sparce on the resources. You also lose about 3-4 squares on even the best location due to mountains and deserts.

I can't wait to see the results from this gauntlet. I think we could see 3 different leaders on 3 different maps for the top 5. Would be something different.

 

[BlueRenner]

On the 1226 game, I started with marble two squares north of my capital. It was very, very useful, as I'm sure you can imagine. No stone, but I also had bronze and iron -- though I never built a mine on it! I cottaged my iron-on-grassland square.

In my games, my culture cities are typically producing between 500-550 culture-per-turn in the final moments. The lead up is much slower, with them slowly building from around 200/turn to that peak.

Furthermore, in the 1226 game my artists were not evenly distributed. My capital only needed two, one city needed six, and the other needed seven. So one city recieved a 72000 culture bonus, which translates into a 144 turn savings for it.

Philosophical overrated? I think not. Especially since I haven't maxed out the number of artists I get in a game. I think its quite possible to recieve around 20.

- Bill

 

[Mad Dog]

My latest effort was a relatively poor 1370 AD, with Elizabeth vs Asoka, Ghandi and Hattie on a balanced map - very similar to BlueRenners approach.

I'm sure artists are the key to a quick finish, along with early towns and population growth. I popped 11 GAs even having starved down my main GP factory by mistake, and also popped a GE and a GS.

A single GA is 12k culture. That's between say 12 and 30 turns quicker a town can reach legendary culture. You'll tend to use them more on your worse culture towns (say 400/turn) which is the equivalent of gaining 30 turns. You can pop 15, 5 per city, that's a gain of 150 turns, 300 years.

I'm convinced the right map set up in terms of resources and terrain will determine the best times. It will be interesting to see when the results come in.

If you start on gems, gold or silver, early research to get to bronze and pottery is maybe a third quicker, 20 turns or so at least I'd reckon. So I have been regenerating the map until I start with one of these.

The other key is lots of food squares (resouces, and or GP) to make GPs with and grow your cities fast.

 

[godotnut]

I just finished a 1406 with Liz. That's probably my last effort, as I'm going to get real busy in the rest of my world starting soon.

I was frustrated to receive 2 prophets and a scientist. My advice: don't grab the Great Library, even if it's easy.

Regarding the marble on a balanced map. I restarted dozens of times for hours on end and never got a spot near marble. I was just about convinced that there is no marble on balanced maps. Then on my last try I had not one but TWO marble squares, right next to each other. I had never seen that before. I wasn't aware that stone and marble resources can be found in adjacent squares.

I never switch to a religion in my games for this gauntlet. I do this to keep the peace. What do you think? Is it worth it?

 

[BlueRenner]

Religion is necessary in the Great Artist strat, to take advantage of Pacifism.

Which leads me to a story about my last game. It was strange.. for some reason Asoka's religions (Hinduism, Buddhism, Judaism) didn't spread. So when I founded Confucianism, both Caesar and Cyrus joined up. I hadn't chosen my religion at this point, so I was faced with a choice: Use my Stonehenge-prophet to build the Confucian Shrine and spread it agressively, knowing I'd be a different religion from Mao and Asoka, or deal with two civs right next to me of opposite religion. Tough choice.

Since I've never gone with this option, I chose to go Confucian and build the shrine. The money coming in was great.. but it was ultimately my downfall. Once Mao got tired of beating on Asoka, he turned to me. That was game over.

In retrospect, what I should have done is that in the first Mao-Asoka war, I should have allied with Mao (we shared a long border) and then gotten the armies of Confucius to all pile on. The ill-will generated by warring with Asoka would be negated by the fact there would be no Asoka, and Mao would then have turned on Cyrus... which would have given me enough time to win, I thinking.

Another downside of the shrine is that it was in one of my GP cities. Mental Note: NEVER DO THIS AGAIN. The GP point that the shrine produces seems to totally overwhem the 18 GP points produced by 6 artists. From that city I recieved 3 Prophets and 1 Artist. It was sick.

Also, I didn't have stone or marble. I don't see this as being a major hinderance. The empathsis put on Marble by some of my fellow Famers is totally unwarrented, I'm thinking. Bronze is much, much, much more important, and thankfully more common.

Obviously, I don't know how that game would have turned out, but given that I stopped researching around 160 AD, I'm thinking it would be respectable, at least very least.

- Bill

 

[Shillen]

Another downside of the shrine is that it was in one of my GP cities. Mental Note: NEVER DO THIS AGAIN. The GP point that the shrine produces seems to totally overwhem the 18 GP points produced by 6 artists. From that city I recieved 3 Prophets and 1 Artist. It was sick.

As my one piece of advice in this entire thread I said not to do that a couple pages back. I was trying to spare you guys learning it the hard way like I did.

 

[godotnut]

@BlueRenner:
So the 100% great person bonus from Pacifism only works if you have a state religion in the city--is that true? I never knew that. I was in Pacficism most of the game, assuming that I was getting the bonus. No wonder I received so few great artists.

 

[BlueRenner]

Ayup. Pacifism only gives the +100% GP bonus in cities with your state religion.

This is why I put so much thought into my current "One World Religion" strategy, so I can get all the bonuses without incurring any of the enmity.

- Bill

 

[Mad Dog]

I've not found religion to be a problem using a pacifist strat. I don't found any religion before taoism or confucianism, and don't generally bother choosing a religion before I hit philosophy (when it's needed to make use of pacifism).

By this time I'm usually very sweet with all the other civs, having traded with them all nicely for ages. So when I finally switch to whatever religion none of them get too fussed about it and they still all love me. I've done this reliably in 3-4 games now, never fails with the right opposition. I use Asoka, Ghandi and Hattie.

 

[Big_Ben]

How far do you go in teching? Do you stop after liberalism or do you go to nationalism to get the hermatage (I build the taj with an GE) or do you go to communism to get the kremlin to cut your costs in half?

I have tried all three. Best finish was liberalism but last game I went to nationalism and started the golden age while I was collecting cash. It worked well but I had a city that was way behind that I couldn't catch up.

 

[walkerjks]

How far do you go in teching? Do you stop after liberalism or do you go to nationalism to get the hermatage (I build the taj with an GE) or do you go to communism to get the kremlin to cut your costs in half?

I have tried all three. Best finish was liberalism but last game I went to nationalism and started the golden age while I was collecting cash. It worked well but I had a city that was way behind that I couldn't catch up.

I'm increasingly convinced that Liberalism/Printing Press/Nationalism is the place to stop. Nationalism is still a "maybe", however. Communism is often a "100 turns of research to save 120 turns of running a low culture slider" sort of decision. Hard to estimate, and my best games are those where I just bite the bullet and buy selectively at full cost of 3 gold/shield.

Printing Press is a very nice boost to commerce. And you can generally trade for the pre-reqs to make it your free liberalism tech.

Nationalism is going to make a difference of 150 to 200 culture/turn at the end of the game. Less earlier when you aren't running a high culture slider and your cottages aren't as developed. Optimistically, say an average of 125 culture/turn for 200 turns. That's a not trivial 25,000 culture. Compare this to the culture cost extra turns of research (though at a time when your cottage output is still relatively low). Your rush buying will be delayed, and ultimately, your switch to high culture slider will be delayed.

You can often (but not always) trade Education for Civil Service the turn before you get liberalism, which allows Nationalism to be the free tech, instead of Printing Press.

Of course the decision may change a bit, if you are generating significant science through specialists/Representation. In this case, it might be possible to simultaneously collect cash for rush buying and still research Nationalism in a reasonable amount of time.

 

[Smirk]

Tried the Inca rush again and while ultimately successful, it was a dismal failure.
I took one city from Washington that was about 8 tiles from my capital. Then healed up my units and marched east and saw Victoria's borders, she had two cities at this point. Spying a settler on the move with one archer guard and another archer trailing I warred and took the settler, then marched to her capital. The trailing archer headed back but didn't get its +25 fortify bonus which allowed me to take this city with only one lost warrior. I kept the city and then marched on her last city figuring I would raze it. After taking it the fog reveals marble within range! I already had a city lined up with stone (was to be my first actual settler but 5th city.)

All this completed before 100 turns in marathon. Now to the problem, once I got alphabet Elizabeth wouldn't trade techs. She acted as if she had a monopoly, which she did, but at this point (and I assume duels) no trading could go on at all. Sounds like a bug to me, but at any rate my strategy banks on trading.

 

[Big_Ben]

I don't think any quechua rush will work unless it is team battleground left vs right. That means you only take out one opponent and you get half the map to yourself to be settled at your own pace. And you still have 2 guys to trade with.